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Thread: Building the CoPogy 18

  1. #701
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    Default Re: Building the CoPogy 18

    A berth for you. A berth for your bicycle. That's smart.
    Quote Originally Posted by James McMullen View Post
    Yeadon is right, of course.

  2. #702
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    Default Re: Building the CoPogy 18

    Quote Originally Posted by Hugh MacD View Post
    That's an amazing amount of space for an 18 footer, Alex. Tad came up with a great concept that you've done a brilliant interpretation of. Really looking forward to seeing some cruising reports! Will you have the stove in for some fall cruising?
    Thanks Hugh!

    Fall cruising with stove not likely. I first need to build or buy a covered outdoor shelter to be able to keep the rain off and be able to work on the boat when it does rain. The boat on the trailer will definitely not fit back into the garage/shop.

    Also, the list of projects that I want to complete before taking the boat out again has grown to 24 items. A winter's work, for sure.
    Alex

    “It's only those who do nothing that make no mistakes, I suppose.”
    - Joseph Conrad, An Outcast of the Islands

    http://www.alexzimmerman.ca

  3. #703
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    Default Re: Building the CoPogy 18

    We used to take two week trips in a 22' C-Dory with two adults and two large dogs. The details make the difference.
    As an example, the three biggest improvements for us were where we ended up putting the cooler which transformed which the living space. Gear hammocks under the side decks and alongside the hull are inexpensive and swallow gear, onions and other treasure. If you have space the Sterilite drawer units are very useful, inexpensive and look okay.

    As an aside one time at Stewart Island, I traded a Russian smuggler a hammock onion for two beers (I was out!)
    True story.
    Last edited by Autonomous; 09-20-2022 at 10:53 AM.
    ​​♦ During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act
    ♦ The further a society drifts from truth the more it will hate those who speak it
    ♦ If liberty means anything at all, it means the right to tell people what they do not want to hear
    ♦ George Orwell

  4. #704
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    Default Re: Building the CoPogy 18

    Quote Originally Posted by Autonomous View Post
    We used to take two week trips in a 22' C-Dory with two adults and two large dogs. The details make the difference.
    As an example, the three biggest improvements for us were where we ended up putting the cooler which transformed which the living space. Gear hammocks under the side decks and alongside the hull are inexpensive and swallow gear, onions and other treasure. If you have space the Sterilite drawer units are very useful, inexpensive and look okay.

    As an aside one time at Stewart Island, I traded a Russian smuggler a hammock onion for two beers (I was out!)
    True story.
    I had a couple of Sterilite boxes to hold copies of my books that I sold at the festivals. I agree, they work well.

    I also have one gear hammock that I bought but have not yet got around to putting up..

    I'm intrigued - was the Russian smuggler a smuggler of Russians or a Russian who was smuggling other contraband?
    Alex

    “It's only those who do nothing that make no mistakes, I suppose.”
    - Joseph Conrad, An Outcast of the Islands

    http://www.alexzimmerman.ca

  5. #705
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    Default Re: Building the CoPogy 18

    Some other commodity.
    A power boat (smuggler crew #2) showed up after the Russian (smuggler crew #1) on a new 40' Hanse and they pretended not to know each other.
    After a couple hours it became clear they were very familiar with each other.
    Then the party was on. Big garbage bags ostensibly filled with full and empty booze bottles being shuffled around like a shell game.
    A little 2 place airplane with an unusual small, open side door came and circled low and slow over the Prevost Harbor docks three times. Each time the Russian would walk over to me (the apparent patsy) and look up at the airplane. Some three-letter agency now has photos of me chatting with a known smuggler.
    That night the crews partied like Russians. Bonus points for a thorough cleanup though.
    Next morning brought a new shell game and then the power boat took off to get some 'coffee'. They came back a couple hours later to exchanged something.
    The big onion for beer caper happened the evening of the first day.
    Last edited by Autonomous; 09-20-2022 at 02:09 PM.
    ​​♦ During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act
    ♦ The further a society drifts from truth the more it will hate those who speak it
    ♦ If liberty means anything at all, it means the right to tell people what they do not want to hear
    ♦ George Orwell

  6. #706
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    Default Re: Building the CoPogy 18

    Quote Originally Posted by AJZimm View Post
    This does mean that the board moves back and forth a little when underway. However, it also moves back and forth a little when the boat is at anchor and rolls/rocks due to wave action... This means another thing to add to my list of modifications to the boat. I am thinking some kind of tapered slot fitting, matching the trailing edge of the centreboard, that I can permanently fit into the top of the case, would do the trick. I would raise the board where it would snug into the fitting and be held from moving, thus keeping it quiet. Unless anyone else has a better suggestion.
    My boat has a similar feature. It hadn't occurred to me that this would take some stress off the pin. No solutions from me, but I'm curious what the forum comes up with.

  7. #707
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    Default Re: Building the CoPogy 18

    Quote Originally Posted by AJZimm View Post
    The oars also serve as a handy towel rack
    Oars?
    One of the great things about this forum is that we don't all have to accumulate the same scar tissue.
    AJ Zimm

  8. #708
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    Default Re: Building the CoPogy 18

    This does mean that the board moves back and forth a little when underway. However, it also moves back and forth a little when the boat is at anchor and rolls/rocks due to wave action... This means another thing to add to my list of modifications to the boat. I am thinking some kind of tapered slot fitting, matching the trailing edge of the centreboard, that I can permanently fit into the top of the case, would do the trick. I would raise the board where it would snug into the fitting and be held from moving, thus keeping it quiet. Unless anyone else has a better suggestion.
    My Autumn Leaves has a pair of bilgeboards. I deliberately made the pivot holes oversize so I would not have a stress point there. I would think that if a board pin was snug and secure enough to prevent the board from moving laterally, it would need a big bushing of some sort to take the stress. Lacking that, I'd fear a lot of wear in a spot that's hard to inspect.

    In my case, if I haul the boards all the way up, they don't bang around in the cases at all. Under way, they're always locked to one side or the other by the sailing forces. In any event, I think a wedge of foam or rubber at the top of the case would fix the issue if simply hauling the board up hard does not quiet it down.
    -Dave

  9. #709
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    Default Re: Building the CoPogy 18

    On oar stowage: The plans for the Autumn Leaves show the oars lashed on the side decks. It can be done, and this is where I put them at anchor. But while sailing, I stow them in the cabin as shown here. An aluminum bracket aft, and a foam pad forward. The plans call for 9'6" oars. I had to trim them to 9'5" so they would fit here. It's actually quicker and easier to get them into the oarlocks from here than it is if they're lashed down on deck.

    91 Oar stowage.jpg
    -Dave

  10. #710
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    Default Re: Building the CoPogy 18

    Quote Originally Posted by Yeadon View Post
    A berth for you. A berth for your bicycle. That's smart.
    It's about the only place it could go. It might almost fit in one of the cockpit lockers after I fix the hinge thing, but it's the wrong place to have weight, although it's only 28 lbs.
    Alex

    “It's only those who do nothing that make no mistakes, I suppose.”
    - Joseph Conrad, An Outcast of the Islands

    http://www.alexzimmerman.ca

  11. #711
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    Default Re: Building the CoPogy 18

    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Lesser View Post
    Oars?
    Emergency backup plan B or maybe C, in the event the motor quits in a flat calm. They are el cheapo units that are about 2' too short for proper propulsion efficiency. I have delusions of being able to move the boat at a knot or so, using them standing up facing forward, to move to an anchorage or a berth, or at least away from the rocks.
    Alex

    “It's only those who do nothing that make no mistakes, I suppose.”
    - Joseph Conrad, An Outcast of the Islands

    http://www.alexzimmerman.ca

  12. #712
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    Default Re: Building the CoPogy 18

    Quote Originally Posted by Woxbox View Post
    My Autumn Leaves has a pair of bilgeboards. I deliberately made the pivot holes oversize so I would not have a stress point there. I would think that if a board pin was snug and secure enough to prevent the board from moving laterally, it would need a big bushing of some sort to take the stress. Lacking that, I'd fear a lot of wear in a spot that's hard to inspect.

    In my case, if I haul the boards all the way up, they don't bang around in the cases at all. Under way, they're always locked to one side or the other by the sailing forces. In any event, I think a wedge of foam or rubber at the top of the case would fix the issue if simply hauling the board up hard does not quiet it down.
    The board still moves around when hauled all the way up, unfortunately. A wedge of hard-ish rubber sounds like it might do the trick. Solid enough to quiet the board but with enough give to avoid wearing the paint off.

    Quote Originally Posted by Woxbox View Post
    On oar stowage: The plans for the Autumn Leaves show the oars lashed on the side decks. It can be done, and this is where I put them at anchor. But while sailing, I stow them in the cabin as shown here. An aluminum bracket aft, and a foam pad forward. The plans call for 9'6" oars. I had to trim them to 9'5" so they would fit here. It's actually quicker and easier to get them into the oarlocks from here than it is if they're lashed down on deck.

    91 Oar stowage.jpg
    Side decks on Camas Moon are too narrow at the forward end of the pilothouse to accommodate oars and that is a critical place for my feet getting forward in any case.. Thanks for the picture. That solution might work for me.
    Alex

    “It's only those who do nothing that make no mistakes, I suppose.”
    - Joseph Conrad, An Outcast of the Islands

    http://www.alexzimmerman.ca

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    Default Re: Building the CoPogy 18

    Well done. That is one BIG little boat, impressive. Very handsome under sail.
    Steamboat

    I get by with the judicious use of serendipity.

  14. #714
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    Default Re: Building the CoPogy 18

    I added large thin “washers” of uhmw (or some sort of high density plastic) to the sides of my centerboard to keep it from banging around or wracking inside the trunk. Works great.

    5CB9A6E2-45CD-46A1-93B5-8EF044142092.jpg
    Last edited by Yeadon; 09-21-2022 at 03:05 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by James McMullen View Post
    Yeadon is right, of course.

  15. #715
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Yeadon View Post
    I added large thin “washers” of uhmw (or some sort of high density plastic) to the sides of my centerboard to keep it from banging around or wracking inside the trunk. Works great.

    5CB9A6E2-45CD-46A1-93B5-8EF044142092.jpg

    Great idea! Should have done that. A little late now.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    Alex

    “It's only those who do nothing that make no mistakes, I suppose.”
    - Joseph Conrad, An Outcast of the Islands

    http://www.alexzimmerman.ca

  16. #716
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    Default Re: Building the CoPogy 18

    Here's something funny. The builder of my chebacco built the whole center board out of uhmw... And as a result, it wouldn't initially go down until a lead puck was added.
    Tales from the land and sea: http://terrapintales.wordpress.com/

  17. #717
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    Default Re: Building the CoPogy 18

    Quote Originally Posted by Bruce Bateau View Post
    Here's something funny. The builder of my chebacco built the whole center board out of uhmw... And as a result, it wouldn't initially go down until a lead puck was added.
    Hmmm. Seemed like a good idea at the time!

    Wouldn't rot, but the stuff doesn't have that much stiffness. I would like to see an underwater GoPro video of the thing deployed in action while beating to windward. I have this image of it bending sideways like a boiled lasagna noodle.
    Alex

    “It's only those who do nothing that make no mistakes, I suppose.”
    - Joseph Conrad, An Outcast of the Islands

    http://www.alexzimmerman.ca

  18. #718
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    Default Re: Building the CoPogy 18

    True UHMW might be stiff enough. Most of what you see these days is really HDPE,,,like the "StarBoard" which flexes like mad. UHMW is a bit more like aluminum...even machines like it.

  19. #719
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    Default Re: Building the CoPogy 18

    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Lesser View Post
    Oars?
    An oar is an implement used for water-borne propulsion. Oars have a flat blade at one end. Rowers grasp the oar at the other end. The difference between oars and paddles is that oars are used exclusively for rowing. In rowing the oar is connected to the vessel by means of a pivot point for the oar, either an oarlock, or a thole.
    Quote Originally Posted by James McMullen View Post
    Yeadon is right, of course.

  20. #720
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    Default Re: Building the CoPogy 18

    Quote Originally Posted by AJZimm View Post
    Emergency backup plan B or maybe C, in the event the motor quits in a flat calm. They are el cheapo units that are about 2' too short for proper propulsion efficiency. I have delusions of being able to move the boat at a knot or so, using them standing up facing forward, to move to an anchorage or a berth, or at least away from the rocks.
    With my recent round of engine troubles I've been thinking a lot about oars as "Plan C". The S&T formula says I should have oars that are 11' long...quite a handful to store "Just In Case".

    After watching Murrelet scull her way out of Point Hudson after the boat festival I'm back to thinking a two-piece yuloh might be just the ticket. And it would be a fun smallish project to work on over the winter.
    Steve

    If you would have a good boat, be a good guy when you build her - honest, careful, patient, strong.
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  21. #721
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    Default Re: Building the CoPogy 18

    Quote Originally Posted by stromborg View Post
    After watching Murrelet scull her way out of Point Hudson after the boat festival I'm back to thinking a two-piece yuloh might be just the ticket. And it would be a fun smallish project to work on over the winter.
    A yuloh is on my 24-item (so far) list of modifications and upgrades to Camas Moon, although not perhaps at the top of said list.
    Alex

    “It's only those who do nothing that make no mistakes, I suppose.”
    - Joseph Conrad, An Outcast of the Islands

    http://www.alexzimmerman.ca

  22. #722
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    Default Re: Building the CoPogy 18

    Time & Cost to Build Camas Moon

    I have been asked many times how long it took me to build the boat and a few times how much it cost.

    In my day job of engineering and management, before I retired and took up writing and carried on boatbuilding, data was the lifeblood of what I did. So, you will not be surprised to learn I kept track of these things. The numbers may be of interest to others contemplating a build of the same design, or one similar.

    Time:
    I started the build of the as-yet unnamed CoPogy 18 on Monday, September 14th, 2020 and 2,265 hours of work later, launched her as Camas Moon, on Sunday, August 28th 2022. Three weeks shy of two years.

    I make no claims as to this being the optimum or shortest time required to complete this boat. Others who have more experience, are better organized and/or have a bigger shop, undoubtedly could do the job in less time. I spent a lot of time moving the boat about to be able to work on alternate sides and ends.

    Cost:
    I kept most of the materials receipts and the receipts for work that I outsourced, such as the cutting of the steel for the centreboard and some machining and welding that I had done. Now that I come to add them up, I seem to be missing the receipts for things that I bought at my local big box hardware store – mostly consumables and rough lumber for mould supports and so on. I’m guessing that I didn’t spend more than $500 on those. On the other hand, I have a significant amount of epoxy leftover from the last batches I bought, probably about $500 worth. As a result, I haven’t adjusted the final total. The cost includes a new trailer and its modification to take the boat, as the boat is useless without it, unless I were to keep it in the water, which would be even more expensive.

    That total is $36,276 Canadian. Apply whatever exchange rate is appropriate to translate to your local currency. I am attaching a couple of graphic breakdowns, for those you who are more visually oriented and who wonder where all that money went. One is a pie chart and the other is a histogram, the latter sorted most to least cost categories.






    There will be some people who will be appalled at how much money I spent to build what is, in the end, a small boat, and who will inevitably cry that I could have bought a bigger, better, more capable used boat, either in plastic or wood, for the same amount of money. They are right, I could have. And many will say I could have done things cheaper. They may also be right.

    But that is all beside the point. To them I say that there are few opportunities in this increasingly virtual and manufactured world to do something truly authentic, and end up with something unique. To do something that is, to me, a perfect fusion of action and contemplation, of doing and being. To undertake a protracted project that engages your intellect yet allows you to be in the moment, for extended periods. That, to me, is boatbuilding.

    This particular project kept my brain from turning to mush during the pandemic, and I have a capable boat that allows me to continue my exploration of the wonderful British Columbia coast.
    Alex

    “It's only those who do nothing that make no mistakes, I suppose.”
    - Joseph Conrad, An Outcast of the Islands

    http://www.alexzimmerman.ca

  23. #723
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    Default Re: Building the CoPogy 18

    There will be some people who will be appalled at how much money I spent to build what is, in the end, a small boat, and who will inevitably cry that I could have bought a bigger, better, more capable used boat, either in plastic or wood, for the same amount of money. They are right, I could have. And many will say I could have done things cheaper. They may also be right.

    But that is all beside the point. To them I say that there are few opportunities in this increasingly virtual and manufactured world to do something truly authentic, and end up with something unique. To do something that is, to me, a perfect fusion of action and contemplation, of doing and being. To undertake a protracted project that engages your intellect yet allows you to be in the moment, for extended periods. That, to me, is boatbuilding.

    This particular project kept my brain from turning to mush during the pandemic, and I have a capable boat that allows me to continue my exploration of the wonderful British Columbia coast.
    Alex, I agree 100%. And in the end, you have the boat you want, not something that is sort of but not quite what you want.

    But the cost did surprise me. I completed my Autumn Leaves in 2019 after about 1500 hours work. I started with a CNC kit ($8,000), which saved many hours of labor. The length and displacement and construction technique of our two boats are very similar. My total bill -- although not as carefully calibrated as yours, was right about $18,000 US, including trailer ($3,000) and electric motor and battery ($2,000). I suppose there's some inflation since 2019, and perhaps things cost more in Canada. But your cost is about $27,000 US at today's exchange rate. Not sure why the difference. I did have a metal shop fabricate the tabernacle ($1,600) and the sails were made professionally, as were yours ($1,700.)

    But in the end, it doesn't matter. We both have unique boats that fulfill our needs and that can't be bought anywhere.
    -Dave

  24. #724
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    Default Re: Building the CoPogy 18

    Quote Originally Posted by AJZimm View Post
    Hmmm. Seemed like a good idea at the time!

    Wouldn't rot, but the stuff doesn't have that much stiffness. I would like to see an underwater GoPro video of the thing deployed in action while beating to windward. I have this image of it bending sideways like a boiled lasagna noodle.
    Nooooo! Don't plant that image in my head. I can't help but think of an inverted Free Willy:



    They guy was a machinist, so I'm hopeful he considered the properties before he built it. On the other hand, anything is possible when a lubber builds a boat.

    That said, I'm going to take the boat out for an overnighter this weekend before I put her away for the season and I will now be forced to bring my scuba mask and swim under the boat.

    Thanks Alex.
    Tales from the land and sea: http://terrapintales.wordpress.com/

  25. #725
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    Default Re: Building the CoPogy 18

    Quote Originally Posted by Woxbox View Post
    Alex, I agree 100%. And in the end, you have the boat you want, not something that is sort of but not quite what you want.

    But the cost did surprise me. I completed my Autumn Leaves in 2019 after about 1500 hours work. I started with a CNC kit ($8,000), which saved many hours of labor. The length and displacement and construction technique of our two boats are very similar. My total bill -- although not as carefully calibrated as yours, was right about $18,000 US, including trailer ($3,000) and electric motor and battery ($2,000). I suppose there's some inflation since 2019, and perhaps things cost more in Canada. But your cost is about $27,000 US at today's exchange rate. Not sure why the difference. I did have a metal shop fabricate the tabernacle ($1,600) and the sails were made professionally, as were yours ($1,700.)

    But in the end, it doesn't matter. We both have unique boats that fulfill our needs and that can't be bought anywhere.
    I think both of you speak wisely and I agree. What a fantastic way to translate money into experience, adventure, and satisfaction.
    Last edited by Bruce Bateau; 09-22-2022 at 11:51 PM.
    Tales from the land and sea: http://terrapintales.wordpress.com/

  26. #726
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    Default Re: Building the CoPogy 18

    Quote Originally Posted by AJZimm View Post
    Time & Cost to Build Camas Moon

    ... I have a capable boat that allows me to continue my exploration of the wonderful British Columbia coast.
    Alex,

    I agree completely about the value of building your own boat. And I think your chart could be an amazing source of information about what real building costs are, for people thinking about building. I really appreciate you taking time to share it here.

    I'm also curious how you think costs on this project compare to costs for something like Firedrake, a small open boat that's also a capable cruiser (in a different vein).

    I think a comparison might paint a very interesting picture of the relationship between cost and volume in a boat, and/or between a cabin/no cabin and engine/no engine. On paper, some might assume Firedrake and Camas Moon are similarly sized.

    Another point on building a boat vs. buying: in North America, there don't seem to be any production boats aimed at small boat cruising, especially sail and oar. No traditional rigs or unstayed masts. No boats marketed to sleep-aboard small boat cruising. So even if I wanted to buy, I can't buy cheap. I could hire a pro to build one, except that, No. I can't. I could never afford to pay what they would need to charge.

    Besides that, if you're going to stick with engineless cruising, that probably means a boat that can be both sailed and rowed. And the technology for that seems to have peaked in the late 19th century. The best boat you can get for my kind of sailing is one that will stick pretty closely to what boats looked like in the 1800s, I would argue. And there is zero commercial interest in building boats like that.

    Bit of a drift--back to you!

    Tom
    Ponoszenie konsekwencji!

    www.tompamperin.com

  27. #727
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    Default Re: Building the CoPogy 18

    For what it's worth, my (very less reliable) data on what it cost to build my boat (Don Kurylko's Alaska design, basically an 18' whitehall) was just over $2,000 U.S., back in 2010-2016 before lumber prices skyrocketed. And I did not use marine ply or expensive cedar--I used radiata pine and Baltic birch ply from the big-box store. Planking costs came in right at $400 total.

    The $2,000 cost does not include a professionally made sail, which was $1,200 and worth every penny (Dabbler Sails). I already owned a suitable trailer from an earlier boat. So, maybe $3,500 total cost.

    Tom
    Last edited by WI-Tom; 09-23-2022 at 10:24 AM.
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  28. #728
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    Default Re: Building the CoPogy 18

    It's easy to believe that those were Alex’s costs.

    In 2007, Big Food, my 15' cedar on oak peapod, was around $3,500 to build, including a profoundly cheap trailer from CWB storage and a Sailrite kit sail. In 2015, My Hvalsoe 18, with a new EZ Loader trailer and a Sailrite kit, cost me a little more than $10k. I cast nearly all of the bronze for Haverchuck. So that probably kept costs down. I didn't keep receipts, but that was my rough estimate at the time and I'm sticking with it. I am keeping receipts on my Bartender 19 project. However, to protect the innocent (me), that data won't be shared with anyone (for instance, you people) for at least five years after the launch of Ed, after which we'll look back and laugh and laugh and laugh.
    Last edited by Yeadon; 09-22-2022 at 11:48 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by James McMullen View Post
    Yeadon is right, of course.

  29. #729
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    Default Re: Building the CoPogy 18

    Quote Originally Posted by Yeadon View Post
    It's easy to believe that those were Alex’s costs.

    In 2007, Big Food, my 15' cedar on oak peapod, was around $3,500 to build, including a profoundly cheap trailer from CWB storage and a Sailrite kit sail. In 2015, My Hvalsoe 18, with a new EZ Loader trailer and a Sailrite kit, cost me a little more than $10k. I cast nearly all of the bronze for Haverchuck. So that probably kept costs down. I didn't keep receipts, but that was my rough estimate at the time and I'm sticking with it. I am keeping receipts on my Bartender 19 project. However, to protect the innocent (me), that data won't be shared with anyone (for instance, you people) for at least five years after the launch of Ed, after which we'll look back and laugh and laugh and laugh.

    Don’t forget to factor in that you earned a friend for life with the Bartender build project. So, probably deduct $22.50 from the overall cost?

  30. #730
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    Default Re: Building the CoPogy 18

    As Tolman said - "Build a Better Boat Than You Can Buy"

  31. #731
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    Default Re: Building the CoPogy 18

    Alex - would you estimate what it might have cost if a professional boat wright had built it for you?

  32. #732
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    Default Re: Building the CoPogy 18

    Quote Originally Posted by Woxbox View Post
    But the cost did surprise me. I completed my Autumn Leaves in 2019 after about 1500 hours work. I started with a CNC kit ($8,000), which saved many hours of labor. The length and displacement and construction technique of our two boats are very similar. My total bill -- although not as carefully calibrated as yours, was right about $18,000 US, including trailer ($3,000) and electric motor and battery ($2,000). I suppose there's some inflation since 2019, and perhaps things cost more in Canada. But your cost is about $27,000 US at today's exchange rate. Not sure why the difference. I did have a metal shop fabricate the tabernacle ($1,600) and the sails were made professionally, as were yours ($1,700.)
    Dave, It is a general truism that things cost more in Canada – a country with a larger geographic footprint and 1/10th of the population of the US means that transport costs alone here mean higher prices. In addition, I saw some pandemic/supply chain price increases – marine ply, epoxy, hardware spring to mind.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bruce Bateau View Post
    The guy was a machinist, so I'm hopeful he considered the properties before he built it. On the other hand, anything is possible when a lubber builds a boat.
    That said, I'm going to take the boat out for an overnighter this weekend before I put her away for the season and I will now be forced to bring my scuba mask and swim under the boat.
    If you actually do that, it will be interesting to know the results.

    Quote Originally Posted by WI-Tom View Post
    I'm also curious how you think costs on this project compare to costs for something like Firedrake, a small open boat that's also a capable cruiser (in a different vein).

    I think a comparison might paint a very interesting picture of the relationship between cost and volume in a boat, and/or between a cabin/no cabin and engine/no engine. On paper, some might assume Firedrake and Camas Moon are similarly sized.

    Another point on building a boat vs. buying: in North America, there don't seem to be any production boats aimed at small boat cruising, especially sail and oar. No traditional rigs or unstayed masts. No boats marketed to sleep-aboard small boat cruising. So even if I wanted to buy, I can't buy cheap. I could hire a pro to build one, except that, No. I can't. I could never afford to pay what they would need to charge.

    Besides that, if you're going to stick with engineless cruising, that probably means a boat that can be both sailed and rowed. And the technology for that seems to have peaked in the late 19th century. The best boat you can get for my kind of sailing is one that will stick pretty closely to what boats looked like in the 1800s, I would argue. And there is zero commercial interest in building boats like that.
    Tom
    In spite of what I said earlier, I didn’t actually keep receipts for Fire-Drake. My sense is that the materials costs were rather less than half of those for Camas Moon. Camas Moon is not quite an order of magnitude more complex, but is at least twice as complex – it took a little more than twice the hours to build – 1,076 hours for Fire-Drake. Other indicators are the amount of marine ply used ~ 3X as much, Epoxy ~ 4X as much, fibreglass cloth – none on Fire-Drake, hatches ~ 4X as many, rigging – more complex with more hardware e.g. roller furler and blocks for halyards, one more sail, two more spars, built-in electrics and electronics and on it goes. Of course Camas Moon could have been built simpler in terms of fewer waterproof commercial hatches and without on-board systems, but those costs are a relatively minor part of the total if you examine the graphs.

    I agree that there don’t seem to be any production boats aimed squarely at the beach cruiser/camp cruiser/sail and oar market. Whether that market would grow if there were production boats offered is an open question.


    Quote Originally Posted by Yeadon View Post
    It's easy to believe that those were Alex’s costs.

    In 2007, Big Food, my 15' cedar on oak peapod, was around $3,500 to build, including a profoundly cheap trailer from CWB storage and a Sailrite kit sail. In 2015, My Hvalsoe 18, with a new EZ Loader trailer and a Sailrite kit, cost me a little more than $10k. I cast nearly all of the bronze for Haverchuck. So that probably kept costs down. I didn't keep receipts, but that was my rough estimate at the time and I'm sticking with it. I am keeping receipts on my Bartender 19 project. However, to protect the innocent (me), that data won't be shared with anyone (for instance, you people) for at least five years after the launch of Ed, after which we'll look back and laugh and laugh and laugh.
    Haverchuk’s costs, when translated from $US to $Cdn, sound like they were pretty much in line with those of Fire-Drake.


    Quote Originally Posted by gray duck View Post
    As Tolman said - "Build a Better Boat Than You Can Buy"
    Indeed!

    Quote Originally Posted by Gary Davis View Post
    Alex - would you estimate what it might have cost if a professional boat wright had built it for you?
    A risky endeavour but if you assume that a pro would have access to wholesale prices where I mostly paid retail (although my local chandler gave me some discounts when I was buying big packages of gear at once), then you could perhaps estimate materials costs at 20% less? Say, $29,000?

    As for labour costs, again, assuming a pro would be more skilled and more efficient with his/her time, perhaps the boat could be built in, say 1,500 hours? Apply whatever labour rate you think appropriate to that. Even at, say, $20 an hour, that’s $30,000 just for labour.

    So, a $60,000 boat if you had a pro build it on starvation wages?

    Any professional builders reading this can feel free to chime in and tell me I’m blowing smoke.
    Alex

    “It's only those who do nothing that make no mistakes, I suppose.”
    - Joseph Conrad, An Outcast of the Islands

    http://www.alexzimmerman.ca

  33. #733
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    Default Re: Building the CoPogy 18

    Some great data on building costs and hours here! This really speaks to the difference between one-off and production boatbuilding and points out the effects of the economics of scale. It also opens up the (probably naive) idea that perhaps the time is right for increased production of small scale sail & oar cruisers as the current generation is simply not interested in bigger boats nor are they in the economic position to own/buy them, yet the desire for adventure is there.

  34. #734
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    Default Re: Building the CoPogy 18

    I don't believe that anyone here on the forum, especially a seasoned boat builder, need justify either the money spent nor the time it took to build their boat. I like this forum because it's (mostly) inhabited by like minded fools such as myself. People who enjoy and profit from the rigors and head scratching endeavor of creating a useful object that (usually) looks nice. Alex kept time and expense info because doing so is an extension of his own personality. Many, including myself, don't do those things because we could care less about them. Everyone is right.

    It is frequently suggested that a budding boat builder ought to consider purchasing something already made. These ideas are usually reserved for those neophytes who really haven't a clue about the work involved nor the expense. As such, this advice is often followed enthusiastically by the newby. Alex's data sharing will, I suspect, often be referred to by either himself or others when advising the next boat-star struck new builder of the road that lies ahead of them. Most of us don't need it or want it, but I'm ever so happy that Alex has made the information available.

    Jeff

  35. #735
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    Default Re: Building the CoPogy 18

    One thing I like about building anew ... you buy the boat in increments of $50, $200, $75, etc. A can of paint. A gallon of epoxy. A box of bronze fasteners. Some non-stretch line. It's different than going out and dropping $35k straightaway on a boat you really know very little about.
    Quote Originally Posted by James McMullen View Post
    Yeadon is right, of course.

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