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Thread: Building the CoPogy 18

  1. #736
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    Default Re: Building the CoPogy 18

    The cost surprised me a bit too, but it does all add up. I like to look at it as entertainment cost also. If not boatbuilding, I would be spending the time doing something else which would also cost money. 2000 hours spent in a bar would probably cost me more than Camas Moon....

  2. #737
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    Default Re: Building the CoPogy 18

    Quote Originally Posted by AJZimm View Post

    As for labour costs, again, assuming a pro would be more skilled and more efficient with his/her time, perhaps the boat could be built in, say 1,500 hours? Apply whatever labour rate you think appropriate to that. Even at, say, $20 an hour, that’s $30,000 just for labour.

    So, a $60,000 boat if you had a pro build it on starvation wages?

    Any professional builders reading this can feel free to chime in and tell me I’m blowing smoke.
    Realistically nobody in BC can maintain a shop and tools and work for $20 an hour, it costs at least 3X that, and 5X if you are going to have some tiny profit left over. This is why there are almost no small plywood boats built professionally here. The marketplace will pay $150k for a small aluminum boat, but the equivalent boat in plywood will have more labour hours and folks just don't see the value in that. So small cruising boats have devolved into 3 moldings glued together, bolt on some hardware and sell it for $80k.

    I think your pricing is about as expected, 20 years ago the materials for Ratty (20' open) were about $14.5k with sails and used outboard, very little hardware and no trailer.
    ___________________________________
    Tad
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  3. #738
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    Default Re: Building the CoPogy 18

    Quote Originally Posted by TR View Post
    Realistically nobody in BC can maintain a shop and tools and work for $20 an hour, it costs at least 3X that, and 5X if you are going to have some tiny profit left over. This is why there are almost no small plywood boats built professionally here. The marketplace will pay $150k for a small aluminum boat, but the equivalent boat in plywood will have more labour hours and folks just don't see the value in that. So small cruising boats have devolved into 3 moldings glued together, bolt on some hardware and sell it for $80k.

    I think your pricing is about as expected, 20 years ago the materials for Ratty (20' open) were about $14.5k with sails and used outboard, very little hardware and no trailer.
    Thanks for chiming in, Tad.

    I knew my guessed-at hourly rate was too low, I just didn't know by how much. And, you've answered the question why there are no small plywood boats from production builders.
    Alex

    “It's only those who do nothing that make no mistakes, I suppose.”
    - Joseph Conrad, An Outcast of the Islands

    http://www.alexzimmerman.ca

  4. #739
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    Default Re: Building the CoPogy 18

    Quote Originally Posted by jpatrick View Post
    I don't believe that anyone here on the forum, especially a seasoned boat builder, need justify either the money spent nor the time it took to build their boat. I like this forum because it's (mostly) inhabited by like minded fools such as myself. People who enjoy and profit from the rigors and head scratching endeavor of creating a useful object that (usually) looks nice. Alex kept time and expense info because doing so is an extension of his own personality. Many, including myself, don't do those things because we could care less about them. Everyone is right.

    It is frequently suggested that a budding boat builder ought to consider purchasing something already made. These ideas are usually reserved for those neophytes who really haven't a clue about the work involved nor the expense. As such, this advice is often followed enthusiastically by the newby. Alex's data sharing will, I suspect, often be referred to by either himself or others when advising the next boat-star struck new builder of the road that lies ahead of them. Most of us don't need it or want it, but I'm ever so happy that Alex has made the information available.

    Jeff
    You're welcome.
    Alex

    “It's only those who do nothing that make no mistakes, I suppose.”
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    http://www.alexzimmerman.ca

  5. #740
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    Default Re: Building the CoPogy 18

    Quote Originally Posted by Yeadon View Post
    One thing I like about building anew ... you buy the boat in increments of $50, $200, $75, etc. A can of paint. A gallon of epoxy. A box of bronze fasteners. Some non-stretch line. It's different than going out and dropping $35k straightaway on a boat you really know very little about.
    I agree, although once you're well into it, you're committed to the rest of it. Which means that time spent on deciding what to build is as important as the build itself, maybe more so.
    Alex

    “It's only those who do nothing that make no mistakes, I suppose.”
    - Joseph Conrad, An Outcast of the Islands

    http://www.alexzimmerman.ca

  6. #741
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    Default Re: Building the CoPogy 18

    Quote Originally Posted by rgthom View Post
    The cost surprised me a bit too, but it does all add up. I like to look at it as entertainment cost also. If not boatbuilding, I would be spending the time doing something else which would also cost money. 2000 hours spent in a bar would probably cost me more than Camas Moon....
    . . . and that's just the cost of the booze. The cost of liver damage - incalculable.
    Alex

    “It's only those who do nothing that make no mistakes, I suppose.”
    - Joseph Conrad, An Outcast of the Islands

    http://www.alexzimmerman.ca

  7. #742
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    Default Re: Building the CoPogy 18

    Quote Originally Posted by AJZimm View Post
    I agree, although once you're well into it, you're committed to the rest of it. Which means that time spent on deciding what to build is as important as the build itself, maybe more so.
    A good argument for building a cheap temporary boat first, and using it enough to know what you really want.

    Tom
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  8. #743
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    Default Re: Building the CoPogy 18

    Quote Originally Posted by AJZimm View Post
    Hmmm. Seemed like a good idea at the time!

    Wouldn't rot, but the stuff doesn't have that much stiffness. I would like to see an underwater GoPro video of the thing deployed in action while beating to windward. I have this image of it bending sideways like a boiled lasagna noodle.
    Well Alex, I did a little underwater work, alas not while the boat was beating to windward... and found:
    1. When I pressed my feet against the board while holding onto the side of the boat, the board seemed stiff. Admittedly you can't get too much leverage underwater, I still felt OK about things.
    2. I learned that once in the water, I was able to climb out mid-ship without too much effort.

    The hard part (besides the sandpaper grip paint on my bare skin) was getting from the side deck over the coaming... still it proved that I can get back in the boat at this age/stage...

    Now if anyone has a go pro to lend me, speak up.
    Tales from the land and sea: http://terrapintales.wordpress.com/

  9. #744
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    Default Re: Building the CoPogy 18

    Quote Originally Posted by Bruce Bateau View Post
    Well Alex, I did a little underwater work, alas not while the boat was beating to windward... and found:
    1. When I pressed my feet against the board while holding onto the side of the boat, the board seemed stiff. Admittedly you can't get too much leverage underwater, I still felt OK about things.
    2. I learned that once in the water, I was able to climb out mid-ship without too much effort.

    The hard part (besides the sandpaper grip paint on my bare skin) was getting from the side deck over the coaming... still it proved that I can get back in the boat at this age/stage...

    Now if anyone has a go pro to lend me, speak up.
    Bruce, good to know that the board doesn't seem to be a limp noodle.

    Proving that you are able to get back aboard without mechanical aids is even more important/critical. With my new boat, the freeboard is way too high, which is why I have a collapsible boarding ladder. What I don't have yet is a foolproof way to deploy it if/when I end up the water and I haven't rigged it beforehand.
    Alex

    “It's only those who do nothing that make no mistakes, I suppose.”
    - Joseph Conrad, An Outcast of the Islands

    http://www.alexzimmerman.ca

  10. #745
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    Default Re: Building the CoPogy 18

    While I hope you fellows don't fall overboard too often,it isn't too hard to organise a boarding ladder.The hinged bottom sections can be held up by a catch that is operated by a light line that can be reached while swimming.

    https://www.force4.co.uk/item/Trem/F...oden-Steps/I5F

    https://www.seascrew.com/browse.cfm?...-&l=0000000904

  11. #746
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    Default Re: Building the CoPogy 18

    Quote Originally Posted by John Meachen View Post
    While I hope you fellows don't fall overboard too often,it isn't too hard to organise a boarding ladder.The hinged bottom sections can be held up by a catch that is operated by a light line that can be reached while swimming.

    https://www.force4.co.uk/item/Trem/F...oden-Steps/I5F

    https://www.seascrew.com/browse.cfm?...-&l=0000000904
    Why do you have to ruin our adventure by providing practical solutions!?
    Tales from the land and sea: http://terrapintales.wordpress.com/

  12. #747
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    Default Building the CoPogy 18

    As some of you know, I am involved with the production recreational fiberglass boatbuilding industry. Those people speak about the cost of boats in terms of weight; they understand boatbuilding in terms of cost per pound, at least in a general way. Usually, this method proves very close to the same number once the BOM is complete

    So, when comparing the costs of two boats, besides dimensions and major components like sails and trailers, consider comparing the weight of each.

    Kevin


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
    There are two kinds of boaters: those who have run aground, and those who lie about it.

  13. #748
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    Default Re: Building the CoPogy 18

    Quote Originally Posted by Breakaway;[URL="tel:6733794"
    6733794[/URL]]As some of you know, I am involved with the production recreational fiberglass boatbuilding industry. Those people speak about the cost of boats in terms of weight; they understand boatbuilding in terms of cost per pound, at least in a general way. Usually, this method proves very close to the same number once the BOM is complete

    So, when comparing the costs of two boats, besides dimensions and major components like sails and trailers, consider comparing the weight of each.
    Thats very interesting, I remember reading a boat designer (can’t remember who right now) who used weight to estimate build time. I think his theory was that you could put 2 or 3 pounds of wood on in an hours work on average.

    Does Camas moon weigh anything like 1000 pounds?
    Dreaming of sailing in Iowa, building a Carnell Nutmeg.

  14. #749
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    Default Re: Building the CoPogy 18

    Phil Bolger argued that the number of pieces to be cut and fit are the main determinate of build time regardless of their size.
    -Dave

  15. #750
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    Default Re: Building the CoPogy 18

    It still seems to me that whatever formula you use, it still comes down to "if I live that long". Let's just start there and call it good!

    Ken
    When the desire to learn is greater than the desire to win, the journey becomes the prize.

  16. #751
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    Default Re: Building the CoPogy 18

    Quote Originally Posted by Breakaway View Post
    As some of you know, I am involved with the production recreational fiberglass boatbuilding industry. Those people speak about the cost of boats in terms of weight; they understand boatbuilding in terms of cost per pound, at least in a general way. Usually, this method proves very close to the same number once the BOM is complete

    So, when comparing the costs of two boats, besides dimensions and major components like sails and trailers, consider comparing the weight of each.

    Kevin
    I'm no expert but it seems to me that this method would be most applicable when comparing like-to-like construction methods. That is, while generally a heavier boat will cost more than a lighter boat, some construction methods will be more labour intensive than others. In fact, if you are striving for extreme light weight for a racing boat, for example, you may very well spend more time on the construction - cold-moulding the hull or deck house for example.

    Quote Originally Posted by NeilMB View Post
    Thats very interesting, I remember reading a boat designer (can’t remember who right now) who used weight to estimate build time. I think his theory was that you could put 2 or 3 pounds of wood on in an hours work on average.

    Does Camas moon weigh anything like 1000 pounds?
    That has not been my experience, but then I am just an amateur builder, not a pro doing production boats. Judging from where she sits on her lines at present, Camas Moon displaces around 2,000 lbs.

    Quote Originally Posted by Woxbox View Post
    Phil Bolger argued that the number of pieces to be cut and fit are the main determinate of build time regardless of their size.
    That I can believe as it aligns more closely with my own experience. I would also suggest that the amount of time required depends on whether the boat is a one-off or one of many of the same that you have built before. Also, in the same vein, it will depend on how detailed the plans are. If it is the first build of a new design and many of the construction details aren't on the plans, you will spend a significant amount of time working out how to build the details, building jigs, clamping arrangements ans so on.

    Quote Originally Posted by KenStocker View Post
    It still seems to me that whatever formula you use, it still comes down to "if I live that long". Let's just start there and call it good!

    Ken
    Amen!
    Alex

    “It's only those who do nothing that make no mistakes, I suppose.”
    - Joseph Conrad, An Outcast of the Islands

    http://www.alexzimmerman.ca

  17. #752
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    Default Re: Building the CoPogy 18

    Fixes, Mods & Upgrades

    Camas Moon is the first hull of a new design, and most of the non-critical details of the boat’s construction came from my head, not from Tad’s plans. My shakedown cruise revealed that not all of them worked out. In addition, there are some things that were left unfinished at the time of launch. For example, the small wood stove that I had on order for nearly 11 months arrived the day before I left on my cruise – not enough time to install it.

    I have a list of 24 projects that need doing, most minor and few larger ones. I’ll post some of them as I get to them.

    First to be posted, although not the first to be completed, is the addition of saddles to the masts, to take the weight of the booms when the sails are furled. I didn’t build them in to start with, for two reasons. For the mizzen, I thought I would do the same as on my last boat, which is to bring the boom up and furl the sail around the mast. I did that on the cruise, but the sail has a couple of battens in the roach that prevent it from furling nicely and it is also a little too tall to reach up and tie the top with a gasket or bungee cord. Not an issue in calm weather but there is too much unsecured sail up there for my peace of mind if I was to be in a windy anchorage overnight. I’ve added a topping lift and a saddle so that I can furl the sail down to the boom, just like a big boat.

    Mizzen mast saddle

    I hadn’t thought through the situation on main mast thoroughly. I believe I was thinking that the lazyjacks would take care of holding the boom up adequately. In practice, I found that the furled boom/sail/gaff package sagged down at the mast to where it was resting on the halyard cleats. In addition to being a nuisance when it came time to hoist the sail, the brass nails that I used to fasten the boom jaw leathers chewed into the cleats somewhat and, at the same time, the interference pulled out a couple. Here is my solution:

    Main mast saddle

    The white stuff is star board, whose slickness, I hope, will prevent the brass leather-holding nails from doing damage, especially if I have to snug the boom right down on to the saddle to help getting the luff tight.
    Alex

    “It's only those who do nothing that make no mistakes, I suppose.”
    - Joseph Conrad, An Outcast of the Islands

    http://www.alexzimmerman.ca

  18. #753
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    Default Re: Building the CoPogy 18

    Marianita has a similar saddle for the boom to rest on. One of this winter's projects is to put something like star board on the horizontal surface and some "sacrificial" hardwood strips on the mast where the jaws "work" with the motion of the boat. I'll do something similar up where the gaff saddle sits at full and reefed sailing.

    Not quite ready for the forecast rain, time to pull the "winter" boat covers out of their hiding place in the bilge and put them up.
    Steve

    If you would have a good boat, be a good guy when you build her - honest, careful, patient, strong.
    H.A. Calahan

  19. #754
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    Default Re: Building the CoPogy 18

    Quote Originally Posted by stromborg View Post
    Marianita has a similar saddle for the boom to rest on. One of this winter's projects is to put something like star board on the horizontal surface and some "sacrificial" hardwood strips on the mast where the jaws "work" with the motion of the boat. I'll do something similar up where the gaff saddle sits at full and reefed sailing.

    Not quite ready for the forecast rain, time to pull the "winter" boat covers out of their hiding place in the bilge and put them up.
    Steve, is the leather on the jaws not sufficient to prevent chafe?

    As for winter cover, I bit the bullet and got one of those car-port-like shelters to keep the boat under. It is big enough to allow me to keep the boat dry enough to work on in the rain
    Alex

    “It's only those who do nothing that make no mistakes, I suppose.”
    - Joseph Conrad, An Outcast of the Islands

    http://www.alexzimmerman.ca

  20. #755
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    Default Re: Building the CoPogy 18

    Quote Originally Posted by AJZimm View Post
    Steve, is the leather on the jaws not sufficient to prevent chafe?
    Marianita lives in a slip so there is always a bit of motion, the leather helps but not 100%. Part of it is the leather essentially work hardens over time.
    Steve

    If you would have a good boat, be a good guy when you build her - honest, careful, patient, strong.
    H.A. Calahan

  21. #756
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    Default Re: Building the CoPogy 18

    Quote Originally Posted by stromborg View Post
    Marianita lives in a slip so there is always a bit of motion, the leather helps but not 100%. Part of it is the leather essentially work hardens over time.
    Ah, good point, Thanks
    Alex

    “It's only those who do nothing that make no mistakes, I suppose.”
    - Joseph Conrad, An Outcast of the Islands

    http://www.alexzimmerman.ca

  22. #757
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    Default Re: Building the CoPogy 18

    Fixes, Mods & Upgrades

    This was something I intended to do from the beginning but ran out of time before the launch. Adding closeable ventilation openings to the centre companionway drop board. Ventilation both for fresher air when the boat is otherwise closed up at night, and for combustion air for the wood stove, the installation of which is one of my winter projects

    3 inch holes cut out


    Inside, showing the rotating opening/closing bits


    Outside, showing the grilles that should keep out most of the wind-driven rain (I hope)
    Alex

    “It's only those who do nothing that make no mistakes, I suppose.”
    - Joseph Conrad, An Outcast of the Islands

    http://www.alexzimmerman.ca

  23. #758
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    Default Re: Building the CoPogy 18

    There was a recent thread having to do with deciding on a boat name. It’s a personal thing, of course, but boat names seem important to me. In deciding on a name for this boat, I thought about it for quite a while. This is an excerpt of an article I wrote about the build, explaining my thought process, for another magazine:

    “Boat naming has always seemed to me to be something that shouldn’t be done lightly. I’m not particularly superstitious, but, when it comes to the sea, as Hamlet put it, “There are more things in heaven and earth . . .”, and it doesn’t do to offend Poseidon. Besides that, there are practical considerations. There is nothing more annoying than hearing cumbersome, goofy or cutesy boat names repeated three times on VHF, day after day, when you are on a cruise. In addition, as a sailor, you are synonymous with your boat to much of rest of the sailing community, not to mention when you sail in to a foreign port, as I hope to do (even if it is only Port Townsend). I’m also not a fan of serial boat naming, e.g. “Last Boat III”. I pondered names that were aspirational, meteorological, navigational, naval, avian, animal and botanical. I considered adjectives, nouns and verbs. I wanted the name to be unique. As a primarily visual thinker, I was also trying to envision what kind of image would represent the new boat. Eventually I settled on the name “Camas Moon”, for the beautiful blue/purple flower that blooms here in late spring, and whose starchy bulbs were a food source highly prized by the local First Nations peoples. They harvested the bulbs at the full moon in May, which was known as the Camas Moon. May is also roughly the start of the summer sailing season here.”

    In Canada, if you register a boat, as I did, and which you are obliged to do if you sail the boat outside the country, you need to submit three possible names for approval. In the course of thinking up names, I drew some images that would represent the names. My first choice was Camas Moon, which was accepted. This is the image I drew, which I incorporated into the graphic that adorns the bow of the boat.


    The name I submitted for a second choice was Island Wren, for the Pacific Wren that lives in our rainforest. Here is the graphic I drew for that:




    Finally, the name I submitted for the third choice, was Pika, for the chubby little alpine animal that lives in our western mountains. The hull shape reminded me a little of the animal.
    Alex

    “It's only those who do nothing that make no mistakes, I suppose.”
    - Joseph Conrad, An Outcast of the Islands

    http://www.alexzimmerman.ca

  24. #759
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    Default Re: Building the CoPogy 18

    Those are all great names Alex! Great illustrations too.
    - Chris

    Any single boat project will always expand to encompass the set of all possible boat projects.

    Life is short. Go boating now!

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    Default Re: Building the CoPogy 18

    You have to submit three names? That's interesting, do you know what the reasoning is behind that?
    Steve

    If you would have a good boat, be a good guy when you build her - honest, careful, patient, strong.
    H.A. Calahan

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    Default Re: Building the CoPogy 18

    With regard to Pika. One of the kids had a hamster named Chester that was an escape artist extraordinaire and a traveling fool.
    We had a powerboat with full, convex bows that reminded me of the hamster with his cheeks packed full of bedding and food, ready to bust out... again.
    We named the boat Chester.
    ​​♦ During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act
    ♦ The further a society drifts from truth the more it will hate those who speak it
    ♦ If liberty means anything at all, it means the right to tell people what they do not want to hear
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    Default Re: Building the CoPogy 18

    Quote Originally Posted by stromborg View Post
    You have to submit three names? That's interesting, do you know what the reasoning is behind that?
    Maybe to keep names like;
    Maid Of Plywood
    Byachtch
    from slipping through?
    ​​♦ During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act
    ♦ The further a society drifts from truth the more it will hate those who speak it
    ♦ If liberty means anything at all, it means the right to tell people what they do not want to hear
    ♦ George Orwell

  28. #763
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    Default Re: Building the CoPogy 18

    Quote Originally Posted by cstevens View Post
    Those are all great names Alex! Great illustrations too.
    Thanks Chris!


    Quote Originally Posted by stromborg View Post
    You have to submit three names? That's interesting, do you know what the reasoning is behind that?
    Not sure. Possibly because your first two choices might already be taken? Or, see reasoning by Autonomous below.


    Quote Originally Posted by Autonomous View Post
    With regard to Pika. One of the kids had a hamster named Chester that was an escape artist extraordinaire and a traveling fool.
    We had a powerboat with full, convex bows that reminded me of the hamster with his cheeks packed full of bedding and food, ready to bust out... again.
    We named the boat Chester.
    Of course you did!



    Quote Originally Posted by Autonomous View Post
    Maybe to keep names like;
    Maid Of Plywood
    Byachtch
    from slipping through?
    You would hope.
    But I've seen so many goofy names that I don't think they censor them much, at least not for goofiness - perhaps for obscenity or other offensiveness?
    Alex

    “It's only those who do nothing that make no mistakes, I suppose.”
    - Joseph Conrad, An Outcast of the Islands

    http://www.alexzimmerman.ca

  29. #764
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    Default Re: Building the CoPogy 18

    I love the illustrations Alex- how did you make those?

    I totally agree with you on choosing a boat name. There are some way too common ones out there and it does make you wonder what that says about the owner.

    My other criteria for naming a boat, is that you should be able to clearly call the name out over the VHF and have someone be able to repeat it back to you. Names like "Wolocheeti Queen of Milwaukee" don't work well for that.

    Last, as a matter of cultural awareness, camas is still a prized for for Native Americans/First Nations. You noted "starchy bulbs were a food source."

    -Bruce
    Tales from the land and sea: http://terrapintales.wordpress.com/

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    Default Re: Building the CoPogy 18

    Quote Originally Posted by Bruce Bateau View Post
    I love the illustrations Alex- how did you make those?
    -Bruce
    Thanks Bruce. I used a vector-based graphics program on my PC. Same one that I used to draw the maps in my book. Used a mouse for input, which is kind of tedious. One of these days I'll have to invest in an iPad with a pen/stylus input.


    Quote Originally Posted by Bruce Bateau View Post
    I totally agree with you on choosing a boat name. There are some way too common ones out there and it does make you wonder what that says about the owner.

    My other criteria for naming a boat, is that you should be able to clearly call the name out over the VHF and have someone be able to repeat it back to you. Names like "Wolocheeti Queen of Milwaukee" don't work well for that.
    -Bruce
    I once cruised for a whole week on a bigger boat in our Gulf Islands and every day heard another boat incessantly calling his buddy: "L'il Hummer, L'il Hummer, L'il Hummer". I still have nightmares.


    Quote Originally Posted by Bruce Bateau View Post
    Last, as a matter of cultural awareness, camas is still a prized for for Native Americans/First Nations. You noted "starchy bulbs were a food source."
    -Bruce
    Of course. I didn't mean to imply that the First Nations no longer harvested Camas bulbs, only that, around here at least, they are no longer a staple or mainstay food. That is largely due to most of their traditional harvesting areas, the Garry Oak meadows, having been taken over and developed for other uses. The main hill in one of the largest parks in the City of Victoria, Beacon Hill Park, was a prime site for Camas before us colonists showed up. A smaller park elsewhere in the city has been almost entirely restored as a Camas meadow, mostly due to 20+ years of tireless work by one woman who removed the invasive species and planted and nurtured the Camas. It is a breathtaking sight in the spring.
    Alex

    “It's only those who do nothing that make no mistakes, I suppose.”
    - Joseph Conrad, An Outcast of the Islands

    http://www.alexzimmerman.ca

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