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Thread: "Indigenous" vs. other humans

  1. #1
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    Default "Indigenous" vs. other humans

    I'm with the other humans on this one:

    https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-54221635

    Members of the Sipekne'katik First Nation say they have a right to issue fishing licences to their own people.
    Non-indigenous lobster fishers, however, say their boats are operating out of season and should be stopped.

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    Default Re: "Indigenous" vs. other humans

    eh? that you colonel smalser?
    Simpler is better, except when complicated looks really cool.

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    Default Re: "Indigenous" vs. other humans

    Quote Originally Posted by George. View Post
    I'm with the other humans on this one:

    https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-54221635
    Don't you have enough problems with the indigenous people of your own country? Your own white society is pushing them forever deeper, marginalizing them, creating conflict and just plain killing them. Why don't you work to fix those problems and let the Canadians fix theirs?

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    Default Re: "Indigenous" vs. other humans

    As somebody who contains a large amount of "indigenous" blood and DNA, I understand the need and want to issue their own licenses. However, as a human being who is watching the world burn, limits need to be respected and the lobsters need time to breed and grow before being harvested again. Let the Sipekne'katik nation issue their own licenses, but keep to the season as set by Canada.
    "If you think you are too small to make a difference, try sleeping with a mosquito"

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    Default Re: "Indigenous" vs. other humans

    Quote Originally Posted by CWSmith View Post
    Don't you have enough problems with the indigenous people of your own country? Your own white society is pushing them forever deeper, marginalizing them, creating conflict and just plain killing them. Why don't you work to fix those problems and let the Canadians fix theirs?
    Invaders wrecking the lives of uncontacted or primitive peoples is a terrible problem. This thread is about a different problem. Yes, we have it too. It is a global problem. Think "ancestral right to graze cattle commercially on pastures cleared by setting national parks on fire".

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    Default Re: "Indigenous" vs. other humans

    Quote Originally Posted by George. View Post
    Invaders wrecking the lives of uncontacted or primitive peoples is a terrible problem. This thread is about a different problem. Yes, we have it too. It is a global problem. Think "ancestral right to graze cattle commercially on pastures cleared by setting national parks on fire".
    The thing is I hear you criticizing the actions against indigenous people in Canada, but I never hear you speak about the horrendous problems in your own country unless we call you on it. I hear you criticizing the USA's deeply flawed COVID response, but Brazil is one of the few places on Earth where the problem is actually worse and the politicians are doing the same thing. It gets tiresome hearing you lecture others when the problems close to home go without comment. Seriously, give the Canadians a break and take care of your own house first.

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    Default Re: "Indigenous" vs. other humans

    Quote Originally Posted by CWSmith View Post
    I never hear you speak about the horrendous problems in your own country ...
    That would be because when I start a thread on those, it sinks like a broken-off ballast keel. Either few here know enough about Brazil to comment (you clearly don't), or few care.

    You, on the other hand, should not post anything about anywhere, because you hide your location. I don't see any of our many Canadians objecting.

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    Default Re: "Indigenous" vs. other humans

    We often see the argument made here that issues in other nations ought not be discussed or opinions ought not be expressed if the speaker's own nation has similar problems or does not for it's own sake have a perfect record on relevant issues.

    Apart from being a dishonest tu quoque fallacy, to make such an argument here is childish and anti-intellectual.

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    Default Re: "Indigenous" vs. other humans

    Quote Originally Posted by George. View Post
    Invaders wrecking the lives of uncontacted or primitive peoples is a terrible problem. This thread is about a different problem. Yes, we have it too. It is a global problem. Think "ancestral right to graze cattle commercially on pastures cleared by setting national parks on fire".
    Oh, you are talking about the "Bundy Standoff"
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bundy_standoff

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    Default Re: "Indigenous" vs. other humans

    Quote Originally Posted by George. View Post
    That would be because when I start a thread on those, it sinks like a broken-off ballast keel. Either few here know enough about Brazil to comment (you clearly don't), or few care.

    You, on the other hand, should not post anything about anywhere, because you hide your location. I don't see any of our many Canadians objecting.
    Who I am and where I am is well-known.

    George, I am tired of your nonsense. I'll just put you on ignore and pay your comments the attention they deserve.

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    Default Re: "Indigenous" vs. other humans

    The issue, and the communities involved, are pretty much in my back yard (depending on which Miq'maw community is currently making headlines on this issue, between 10 and 50 kilometres from my front door), but since you guys are already off on a a good tear about it I expect that you do not need nor care about a local perspective on the issue, even from one closely tied to the fishery. Carry on, then; I will enjoy watching the fireworks.
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    Default Re: "Indigenous" vs. other humans

    As an interested, but formally disinterested, party on the other side of the ocean some background would be appreciated.
    I'd much rather lay in my bunk all freakin day lookin at Youtube videos .

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    Default Re: "Indigenous" vs. other humans

    Quote Originally Posted by CWSmith View Post
    George, I am tired of your nonsense. I'll just put you on ignore and pay your comments the attention they deserve.
    Thank Dog!

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    Default Re: "Indigenous" vs. other humans

    Quote Originally Posted by mmd View Post
    I expect that you do not need nor care about a local perspective on the issue, even from one closely tied to the fishery.
    On the contrary. Please do tell.

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    Default Re: "Indigenous" vs. other humans

    We have similar issues. I'm most familiar with the shellfish side of the problem. The impact of Mashpee Wampanoag shellfishing on sustainable recreational and commercial harvesting turned out, after much posturing, to be a non-issue compared to the problems of pollution, acidification, climate change in general, and some predatory harvesters. So the main problems are snooty shorefront owners who call the environmental police anytime they see someone with a rake at times when they can't gather, and a couple of Mashpee Wampanoag members who harvest in closed areas, risking their family's health and, if they illegally sell, the lives of their customers. In the thirteen years since regaining tribal status, most of the problems have been personal spats rather than community resentment against indigenous people's "privilege".

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    Default Re: "Indigenous" vs. other humans

    The local native community fishes and hunts whenever they want.
    Their position is essentially that they were here using resources for several thousand years before there was any problem with sustainability and whitey f&cked it up in the last 150 years.
    R
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    Default Re: "Indigenous" vs. other humans

    Quote Originally Posted by Ron Williamson View Post
    The local native community fishes and hunts whenever they want.
    Their position is essentially that they were here using resources for several thousand years before there was any problem with sustainability and whitey f&cked it up in the last 150 years.
    R
    Largely the same here, and the indigenous still show enough sense of responsibility to harvest sustainably. Something that others seem not to be concerned about. Over fishing, over hunting, over populating, polluting and destruction of the environment. That'll do for a start.
    Then there's history, quite recent history, the serial abrogation of treaties, or like Australia not only no treaties, the non recognition of our indigenous as human beings.

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    Default Re: "Indigenous" vs. other humans

    Historical injustices will not be repaired by letting people destroy nature. Whitey f&cked it up, sure, but now everyone has the technology and wants to catch up.

    I mean, whitey decimated Africa's wildlife and oppressed and enslaved Africans for centuries. So now should we let Africa's "indigenous people" poach rhino horn and ivory to make up for it? Whitey killed almost all the whales. Should we let non-whiteys kill the ones that are left?

  19. #19
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    Default Re: "Indigenous" vs. other humans

    George we can help but that's a decision for Africans themselves. Of course goverments and officials are corrupt and likely the rape of the continents resources will continue. Humans are like that. We do it in our own countries for short term gain, the share price and executive bonuses and salaries, and political power.
    It will catch up with us of course, and is quite rapidly.

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    Default Re: "Indigenous" vs. other humans

    I'm no authority, and I don't want to tar with too wide of a brush,but it seems to me that "Deadliest Catch" wouldn't be deadly at all,if native guys were involved.
    They don't seem to be so obsessed with dollars.
    R
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    Default Re: "Indigenous" vs. other humans

    The issue here seems to be about following - or not - the conservation regulations put in place to conserve the fishery. There is a lot of money in the lobster fishery, especially here in the south-west coast of the province. The commercial fishermen pretty assiduously follow the guidelines set out by the scientists who study the bugs, adhering to pot numbers, fishing season, and size of lobsters kept. They are upset that the indigenous peoples do not abide by these conservation efforts. Granted, the indigenous peoples got the crappy end of the stick for way too long, but...

    There was a landmark legal case a couple of decades ago - the Donald Marshall case - that won the indigenous people in the province the right to fish regardless of season, but... BUT... the wording of the judgement was "for subsistence and ceremonial use". This was assumed to mean that a man could go out and catch enough fish to feed his family. and for any ceremonial activities that involved seafood. About a decade later the Miq'maw challenged the judgement again, stating that merely feeding one's family dis not provide for their entire community's members. They won, and the wording was changed so that the Miq'maw could fish enough to provide food and ceremonial fish for their whole community. They pushed some more and the wording was changed yet again so that their fishery could be a monetary contributor for their community. They pushed for financing for their new commercial fishery and the government agreed to buy them a fleet of new, modern, fully-equipped fishing boats. The end result it that they have a fully-commercial, modern lobster fishing fleet that does not have to pay any attention to fishing zones, catch size, egg-beraing females (usually returned to the sea to perpetuate the stock), or season. They sell their catch on the open market at the prices negotiated my the commercial fisherman's association (to which they do not belong not pay dues to), and keep undersize lobsters, Last year all hell broke loose because somebody came across several tons of rotting, undersize lobsters dumped off the side of a back road because the local Miq'maw had caught more than they could eat or sell.

    So the local dues-paying, law-abiding commercial fishermen are pissed because the local indigenous communities get to over-fish out-of-season for undersize and egg-bearing lobsters using boats and gear provided to them at no cost by the federal government, don't report their catch for conservation evaluation, and waste the precious resource because they do not secure adequate markets for their catch.

    I am all for indiginous peoples having access to the resources that they have utilized for millenia; I just don't think that it is right that they can have a commercial operation handed to them gratis without having to pay attention to the rules and regulations that other commercial fishermen have to. Feed your family? Yup. Do that all year-round? Yup. Fish tons of lobsters and dump them in the woods? Hell, no.
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    Default Re: "Indigenous" vs. other humans

    Quote Originally Posted by mmd View Post
    So the local dues-paying, law-abiding commercial fishermen are pissed because the local indigenous communities get to over-fish out-of-season for undersize and egg-bearing lobsters using boats and gear provided to them at no cost by the federal government, don't report their catch for conservation evaluation, and waste the precious resource because they do not secure adequate markets for their catch.

    I am all for indiginous peoples having access to the resources that they have utilized for millenia; I just don't think that it is right that they can have a commercial operation handed to them gratis without having to pay attention to the rules and regulations that other commercial fishermen have to. Feed your family? Yup. Do that all year-round? Yup. Fish tons of lobsters and dump them in the woods? Hell, no.
    ^ This. I cannot abide waste. Taking undersized and berried lobsters is irresponsible greed.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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    Default Re: "Indigenous" vs. other humans

    I support traditional indigenous rights but I agree with Michael that the treaties were never meant to allow commercial exploitation. That's only for tribe owned casino gambling.

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    Default Re: "Indigenous" vs. other humans

    Quote Originally Posted by skuthorp View Post
    Largely the same here, and the indigenous still show enough sense of responsibility to harvest sustainably. Something that others seem not to be concerned about. Over fishing, over hunting, over populating, polluting and destruction of the environment. That'll do for a start.
    Then there's history, quite recent history, the serial abrogation of treaties, or like Australia not only no treaties, the non recognition of our indigenous as human beings.
    Indigenous populations being allowed to carry on their traditional practices has been a sore point in a lot of places- especially when the indigenous in question are protesting for equality in all things at the same time. Australias aborigines are allowed to hunt dugong because they have always hunted dugong. Except in the past they hunted from a bark canoe using a sharp stick. Now they arrive at the shore in a Toyota Landcruiser towing a fast runabout, and kill dugong with high powered rifles- the entire outfit supplied and paid for by the government. Some people don't like that arrangement, but one word of protest gets one labelled racist. Tricky situation. JayInOz

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    Default Re: "Indigenous" vs. other humans

    Hi Jay, how are you getting along with that link I sent you?

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    Default Re: "Indigenous" vs. other humans

    Sorry mate you've lost me- in the words of the great orator Whatsisname- What Link?

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    Default Re: "Indigenous" vs. other humans

    Quote Originally Posted by skuthorp View Post
    Hi Jay, how are you getting along with that link I sent you?
    Sorry, wrong forumite!

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    Default Re: "Indigenous" vs. other humans

    Thank God- I was feeling awful about not even noticing the link you sent me. I'll go back to feeling awful about other stuff JayInOz

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    Default Re: "Indigenous" vs. other humans

    Fully agree Michael. I'm all for FN traditional fishing and hunting, but not for the notion that it should somehow occur outside the boundary markers of harvests which are safe for the stocks.

    We have, for instance, vanishingly few Atlantic salmon returning to bay of Fundy rivers, for a raft of reasons. Many of which aren't to do with overfishing here. Fish returns to spawn counted in the tens, rather than the thousands, or millions. Yet one band in NB has decided to conduct a salmon food fishery on such a river, because it was a traditional subsistence practice.

    Imo, that's criminal. Whatever one's ethnicity or traditions.
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    Default Re: "Indigenous" vs. other humans

    Well they will be amongst the biggest losers, and it sounds like the fishery has collapsed already. Of course they may have decided to get in while there are still fish to harvest.

    "Not with a bang, but with a whimper".

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    Default Re: "Indigenous" vs. other humans

    Here in Brazil the arapaima fish and river turtles are going extinct and are protected by law. Indigenous people are exempt for "subsistence", so they fish with nets and openly supply the black market. That is the single hardest thing to explain to other local fishers, who are subject to fines, imprisonment, and confiscation of gear if they try it.

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    Default Re: "Indigenous" vs. other humans

    I can't speak to Canada or Brazil, but here in the US I think it's high time we take a look at revising some of these treaties. Written in a different time with different views about resources and people, they need updating. Powerful interest groups will no doubt gnash their teeth but we need to operate under laws and policies that reflect the fact that we are now in the 21st century.
    Steve

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    Default Re: "Indigenous" vs. other humans

    I was talking with a local fisherman/boatbuilder today and got a different, more subtle, take on the dispute in St. Mary's Bay. As is most such situations, it is driven by greed. The federal government gave lobster licenses and boats to various Miq'maw communities to be used by the community for the benefit of the community. Because of the structure of licensing for lobster fishing, each license had to be assigned to a person, not to the community. This was usually the Chief, but chiefs come and chiefs go, but the license stays with the person it was assigned to unless he/she decides to either sell it or abandon it. The license holder, if not chief, can do whatever he wishes with the license. In this case, the license holders are fishing for personal profit, even leasing the boat and license out to other, non-Miq'maw, people in order to not be accountable to the band council. The Miq'maw council has set up a fishery administration council and conservation plan that mostly adheres to Department of Fisheries and Oceans (DFO) guidelines, but it has no authority over non- community fishermen nor do they have any ability to enforce rules out on the water. DFO does not want the enforcement role as that would entangle them in treaty enforcement, which is the purview of the RCMP and Indigenous and Northern Affairs Canada. So nobody has the ability to rein in the fishermen who are using the indigenous lobster licenses and boats illegally. In the opinion of my correspondent this morning, this whole situation of illegally fishing out-of-season and on protected spawning grounds has been deliberately created by the Miq'maw band councils, possibly with the regional commercial fisherman's association knowledge, to force DFO's hand into both accepting the Council's conservation and conservation plan, and to force DFO into policing the indigenous fishery.

    Interesting times...
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  35. #35
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    Default Re: "Indigenous" vs. other humans

    Interesting theory. I like it.

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