'Vette vs. Cayman

[David G]

I'd rather not come to boating forums consisting of people who never have and never will own a true high performance car to get my automotive news and views but.......

Buying a first year production vehicle is risky. The C8 has many quality and design issues. In fact, sales have halted while they try to figure out why the frunk opens on its own at speed. Transmission woes are also being reported along with paint quality issues, poor panel gaps and so on. Judging anything never mind something with such complex use cases by the numbers alone is like judging a woman by her bra size. Straight line speed only matters in a drag race. In every other use case it is moderately to entirely irrelevant.

Many problems being reported for the C8. If you want top quality build, GM isn't usually the first place to look.

That 'first year/new model' thing is really true. My kids were considering waiting to buy a Honda CRV hybrid and I suggested they not. While the CRV is hardly a new model, and the hybrid powertrain from the Accord has also had several years to work out the bugs... the mashup might present some issues. (plus they really needed a bigger vehicle). They bought a 'barely used' Toyota Highlander hybrid and are quite happy with it so far.

The GM thing is true also.

[artif]

Interesting assertion, but quite at odds with my impression. What makes you say it?

Probably should have said, a "sports" car for accountants.
Had one parked next door for the last month, looks very very dull, had to read the badge to get an idea who even made it, certainly not something I'd buy for the looks.
Our neighbour opposite is a classic VW and performance Porsche specialist and some of the porkers he brings home are proper sports cars.

[David G]

Probably should have said, a "sports" car for accountants.
Had one parked next door for the last month, looks very very dull, had to read the badge to get an idea who even made it, certainly not something I'd buy for the looks.
Our neighbour opposite is a classic VW and performance Porsche specialist and some of the porkers he brings home are proper sports cars.

Gotcha. A very different statement, indeed. No accounting for taste... or lack of it <G>

[Henning 4148]

The narrower body of the Cayman will be a plus in many towns and villages in Europe and also on many country roads. The Corvette - needs more space. But I'd like to test drive one. Actually, I'd like to test drive both.

[Gerarddm]

Well, I just bought a juiced Fiat 124 Spider Lusso, and the reviews have almost universally been superb. And it beat the Boxster in a R&T test of 6 affordable sports cars, so there.

And it's good looking too.

[David G]

Well, I just bought a juiced Fiat 124 Spider Lusso, and the reviews have almost universally been superb. And it beat the Boxster in a R&T test of 6 affordable sports cars, so there.

And it's good looking too.

One of my dream cars. Though it'd be tough to choose between the MX5 version, for boy-racer fun... and the Fiat 124 version, for more adult comforts and longer jaunts.

[Henning 4148]

The sad thing is - I do not need any of them. And I have more than enough topics to look after without having a toycar. It would just be another toy, deteriorating while hardly getting any use.

[David G]

The sad thing is - I do not need any of them. And I have more than enough topics to look after without having a toycar. It would just be another toy, deteriorating while hardly getting any use.

For me - it would be a daily driver, allowing me to leave the big truck parked at the shop.

[Art Haberland]

Gerard brings up a point. The MX-5, the Boxster, and the new Fiat 124 are sports cars in the classic sense of the word. The Cayman GT, the Corvette, and the Porsche 911 have long since transcended sportscarhood and have attained status as "junior supercars".

[David G]

Gerard brings up a point. The MX-5, the Boxster, and the new Fiat 124 are sports cars in the classic sense of the word. The Cayman GT, the Corvette, and the Porsche 911 have long since transcended sportscarhood and have attained status as "junior supercars".

Ayup... with price tags to match...

Lottery cars for me. Unless Lew (or more likely his darling wife) succumbs to my years-long campaign to have him adopt me <G>

[Lew Barrett]

Well, I just bought a juiced Fiat 124 Spider Lusso, and the reviews have almost universally been superb. And it beat the Boxster in a R&T test of 6 affordable sports cars, so there.

And it's good looking too.

Congratulations. They are a good deal. I've been looking at RFs, or rather Lindy has. I like having the hard top in winter and for road trips. Sports cars are the best! Have a blast!

[Lew Barrett]

Gerard brings up a point. The MX-5, the Boxster, and the new Fiat 124 are sports cars in the classic sense of the word. The Cayman GT, the Corvette, and the Porsche 911 have long since transcended sportscarhood and have attained status as "junior supercars".

There's a strong point there but even Miatas are turning sub six second 0-60 now. You have the Miata (and Fiat) and the Subaru/Toyota twins and that's all the low cost sports cars available here. The next step up is Cayman/GT4, most 911s, Lotus GT, BMW/ToyotaZ4/Supra and as always the Corvette. Some bit players come and go but that's what sports cars are now. These are the XK-E/ Austin Healy of our era, the Miata is quite literally the Elan of our era. . I will include my Lotus as a top tier sports but not super car rather a focused pure example of the breed. Super cars these days are something else.

My definition of sports car doesn't include Mustang, Camaro or any car evolved from a shared passenger car platform and not purpose built.

That's pretty much what I have understood sports car to mean for years and they always get faster. At some point raw speed isn't just superfluous, it's counterproductive so the upper tier sports cars do become mixed up with supercars. The vette crosses that line. With the rear engine dynamics, there are gonna be tons of crashed ones. The understeer won't be enough to save some of the guys who will be buying it.

[Art Haberland]

My definition of sports car doesn't include Mustang, Camaro or any car evolved from a shared passenger car platform and not purpose built.

While I agree that the Mustang and Camaro are not Sports cars. They never were, they are "pony cars" and well into GT range now. You are leaving out some very good sports cars on the basis that they share their underpinnings with more pedestrian siblings. The Z3 was basically a 318ti with either the 4 or 6 cylinder, but it was still a sports car. The original Fiat 124 Sports Spider had a shortened 124 sedan/coupe floorpan, suspension, and drivetrain under it. Even the Mid-engined X1/9 was still part of the Fiat 128 family.

[Hugh Conway]

Porsche 356 isn’t a sports car?

[Lew Barrett]

While I agree that the Mustang and Camaro are not Sports cars. They never were, they are "pony cars" and well into GT range now. You are leaving out some very good sports cars on the basis that they share their underpinnings with more pedestrian siblings. The Z3 was basically a 318ti with either the 4 or 6 cylinder, but it was still a sports car. The original Fiat 124 Sports Spider had a shortened 124 sedan/coupe floorpan, suspension, and drivetrain under it. Even the Mid-engined X1/9 was still part of the Fiat 128 family.

Anybody else suffering buggy forum software today? Very slow for me. This was a painful redo. I had one of those frustrating experiences. I replied and the best words blew off into the ether as the wheel of misfortune spun on the screen. As the kids say.......anyways,

Today, any car not purpose built to task isn't a sports car in the traditional sense. If we talk about the 124 or or the Z3, we are going back in history between 25 and 65 years. I named the Z4/Supra twinsies already in my former diatribe and they don't platform share except with themselves. The same for the Subaru/Toyota BRZ. BMW and Toyota both know it's already risky competing in these specialist markets so they shared a dedicated platform. Neither could risk a build of such a thing alone and neither could bring a modified 2 or 3 series to the party and expect to be successful in 2020.

Any new sports car is an official Big Deal today and will want to follow the definition I offered to assure success. And I'll add pointedly for Hugh that while there's plenty of platform sharing in VW land none of their sports cars share platform with sedans, including no modern Porsche, Lamborghini or Audi. The rest are as you and I agree, pony cars or Challengers.

Talking about how they skunk worked the 356 or the 124 is irrelevant to sports car vs. super car discussions today when we look at the C8 or the GT4. Fiat didn't do it in preference to teaming with Mazda, and Alfa started from scratch with the 4C as well. Speaking of France....ok we weren't but..... the Alpine is a fresh ground up design I wish they'd sell here. I am prepared to defend this position to the death.

[Hugh Conway]

they are cars, not violins or wines

[Lew Barrett]

Your point on a thread about the finer qualities of performance sports cars ?

[Hugh Conway]

Ferrari has platforms now (that Roma is gonna be an suv) VW group have platforms as you say. McLaren has a “platform”. Cars are an expensive industrial product now, the days of English winos beating panels under a bridge is gone.

[David G]

Ferrari has platforms now (that Roma is gonna be an suv) VW group have platforms as you say. McLaren has a “platform”. Cars are an expensive industrial product now, the days of English winos beating panels under a bridge is gone.

Ayup. And the very reason there's a Fiat version of the Miata. And the Subara/Toyota twins. Etc.

[Bob (oh, THAT Bob)]

Congratulations. They are a good deal. I've been looking at RFs, or rather Lindy has. I like having the hard top in winter and for road trips. Sports cars are the best! Have a blast!

I owned a Miata NA and loved it. What I hate about the Miata RF is the flying buttresses, not because of style, but you lose all the potential luggage space that they could have had with a traditional hatch like the Toyota 86/Subaru BRZ.

Owning a Corvette has not had a stigma for quite a number of years. The C7 was still front engine but had tremendous refinement.

Owning a Camaro has not had the stigma it used to. In fact if they had produced the superb shooting brake concept as drawn by X-Tomi design, I'd have bought one.

[Bob (oh, THAT Bob)]

The vette, if you can get it anywhere near sticker, has always been the performance bargain. Best bang for the buck when buying new. I do not even mind the exterior of the vette. I do, however, hate the interior. GM has always had this thing for taking up valuable real estate with absolutely huge centreconsoles. The vette is mid-engined, it does not need that huge hump in the middle of the car. What is with the row of switches down the "spine" of the console?

Outside looks, I could take either. Engineering, I prefer the porsche. Interior (where you see the car the most when driving) it is hands down the contender from Stuttgart.

(bold) To reduce having frequently used accessories needing to be accessed via a touch screen. Real switches are fast and some can be found tactically while keeping eyes on the road.

[Henning 4148]

(bold) To reduce having frequently used accessories needing to be accessed via a touch screen. Real switches are fast and some can be found tactically while keeping eyes on the road.

A very valid argument for a drivers car. My current car radio has something like a dozen or so push buttons plus two turn thingies on the dash. For settings like tone, you have to go deep in some menues. You have to look at the thing if you want to operate it. I have an old Becker radio flying around, two turn thingies with two more on the same axles plus 3 push buttons, one of them for station search. You can operate the Becker without looking. With the new one, it is faster to find a particular station, but you have to take your eyes from the road. With the Becker, if your station was fading, you just took the next station by pressing one button and if you didn't like it, you pressed again until you found something you liked. Without looking.

Similar with the ventilation and AC: lots of push buttons, so you have to look.

Another thing is, that you can't really feel the individual push buttons, so, you can not reach out without looking and then count to the right one. Touch screens are even worse.

My car has some steering wheel push buttons, they are very helpfull.

Voice control is coming, I have no experience on it in a car yet. Not sure if it always works reliable if you are chatting with a passenger or if the radio is going etc. Probably you have to remember the right commands, stuff like that.

[Art Haberland]

(bold) To reduce having frequently used accessories needing to be accessed via a touch screen. Real switches are fast and some can be found tactically while keeping eyes on the road.

that's great and all. I prefer real switches. I really dislike the HVAC controls on both my Landy and Abarth because you have to take your eyes off of the road to see the settings. I am more referring to the idea of the row of switches along the "spine" of the console. Seems like a really bad place to put them and done only for stylistic reasons.

[George Jung]

I really like the Cayman - but have no desire to have a 'super car'. Don't need the speed; once I get over 120 mph, I get sweaty. So a few steps down, is preferable.

Surprising to see the Miata has so much more HP than the Fiat cousin. Both really nice cars, however. And in a price range I can be comfortable with. $100K for a toy.... not for this dutchman! And besides - I'm not Lew!

[Hwyl]

The year 2000 called. They want their cars back.

[sonofswen]

what's a sports car? Ultimately, it's like porn..you know it when you see it, and sometimes the line is pretty blurry.

[John Meachen]

The year 2000 called. They want their cars back.

Have you too noticed how the muscle car names of 1970 have so much currency? Mustang,Camaro,Challenger,Charger......

[John B]

The year 2000 called. They want their cars back.

The newer the car , the more they whine and snivel at you for some ai inspired slight against their being. Somewhere along the line one of the manufacturers is going to realise that a lot people don't want bells and chimes and proximity sensors and in my case, a goddammit horn that goes off every time I lock the vehicle due to a dead sensor on one of 6 doors Mr Ford doesn't want to know about. Vent.
Seriously though, I drove a new Subaru forester. Never again, stop talking to me, leave me alone.

[George Jung]

So... know ya don't wanna talk about it... musta been 'traumatic'...

but what's the deal on the Forester?

[Kevin T]

Probably should have said, a "sports" car for accountants.
Had one parked next door for the last month, looks very very dull, had to read the badge to get an idea who even made it, certainly not something I'd buy for the looks.
Our neighbour opposite is a classic VW and performance Porsche specialist and some of the porkers he brings home are proper sports cars.

With the understanding that all looks are subjective, beauty in the eye of the beholder and all that, I would have to take exception with this characterization.

I own and drive a 2006 Cayman S and when parked alongside some of the more pricier options from Porsche, more people pause and look at the Cayman then the 911 and the Panamerica. The thing I like about the Cayman is that I don't see myself coming and going everywhere, 911's are a dime a dozen in the three locales I've lived (Fairfield County, CT/ SW Florida. and Santa Monica, CA and the Cayman always stands out. Plus it's got one of the sexiest rear quarter views in automotive design.

295 HP , 250lb-ft of torque, regular sub-five seconds to 60 although Porsche in their conservative default mode officially lists 0-60 times in the 5.1 second range. Lots of useable front and rear trunk space, a relatively narrow sill making ingress and egress a snap, even at 60 years old. It is a sheer joy to drive with the ergonomics just about perfect. A 6 speed stick that clicks into place like a Remington bolt action with all the handling and power that one could ever want (and more importantly) ever realistically be able to utilize in those three relatively congested North American locations.

And the fact that some people have to really look around back to determine the manufacture is something I see in my rear view mirror all the time, which gives it a bit more uniqueness. Now the iterations and redesigns of the last 6 or 7 years are as thick on the ground as flies on a waste pile and why I think the original design is the model in its purest form. Yes the 2006 is the debut year of the model and at least speaking for my car, it has been absolutely bullet-proof. The mid engine makes track days a snap and one has the ability right out of the wrapper to drive at higher limits given its near perfect weight distribution. 40 miles an hour sitting but perhaps a foot off the ground feels a lot faster with perfect control in the twisties and even doubling those speeds when red and blue flashing light nannies aren't around is a thrill. More grins per mile than anything I've ever owned.

Mark me as having drunk deep of the Stuttgart Kool Aid. As Tom Cruise said in "Risky Business" "Porsche, there is no substitute."

[Hwyl]

I drove a new Subaru forester

I've been in that Subaru.

[sonofswen]

Kevin T I totally agree with your sentiments and statements about the Cayman. I like the original design and not so much the changes in the later version. It is sculpture that is functional and not yelling about how powerful it is.
I have a 2017 TTS..and will have to stay with that if I want to stay married. "No more car changes" she says. I would find a Cayman like yours and get it, but that ain't gona happen.
Yes, my car is ok, I still have the Porsche envy and the Cayman is the one.

[Art Haberland]

The not seeing myself coming and going is one of the reasons I have my Abarth. I know of one other in the area. Surprisingly it is a mirror image of mine. My Abarth is red with white mirrors and white lettering along the side. The other is white with red mirrors and red lettering along the side.

[Stiletto]

Is the Cayman essentially a Boxter with a roof?

[George Jung]

Yes. Cayman/boxster.

Kevin - did you have to do the IMS bearing change?