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Thread: OVerhang envy

  1. #1
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    Default OVerhang envy



    This showed up along the side off the road a while back, usually covered by a series of blue tarps. International One Design? Glad I don't have to keep up the brightwork.
    Steve

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  2. #2
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    Default Re: OVerhang envy

    lovely to look at though.
    "If you think you are too small to make a difference, try sleeping with a mosquito"

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    Default Re: OVerhang envy

    Built to a rating I expect. I wonder if a 'hog' is built in to compensate for the rigging strain?
    And yes, a piece of sculpture as much as a sailboat.
    I once looked at a Seabird that had had a long, narrow spoon stern built on to get the mizzen aft of the rudder. About a foot wide at the end.

  4. #4
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    Default

    Looks like a 30sq meter class to me.
    You would not enjoy Nietzsche, sir. He is fundamentally unsound. — P.G. Wodehouse (Carry On, Jeeves)

  5. #5
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    Default Re: OVerhang envy

    A bit big for a 22, a 30 square metre boat .

  6. #6
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    Default Re: OVerhang envy

    Snap.

  7. #7
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    Default Re: OVerhang envy

    It looks a little too long, and the overhangs seem more exaggerated than an IOD

  8. #8
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    Default Re: OVerhang envy

    I tend to the view that it might be a square metre class and hope one of our Scandinavian brethren might be able to enlighten us.On the other hand Mickey Lake might have good information.

  9. #9
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    Default Re: OVerhang envy

    Def a "Skerry cruiser"; probably a 30 since it's too big for a 22 and 40s are rare. IODs are far shorter and heavier, being inspired by the much heavier 6 Metres.

  10. #10
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    Default Re: OVerhang envy

    Quote Originally Posted by skuthorp View Post
    Built to a rating I expect. I wonder if a 'hog' is built in to compensate for the rigging strain?
    And yes, a piece of sculpture as much as a sailboat.
    I once looked at a Seabird that had had a long, narrow spoon stern built on to get the mizzen aft of the rudder. About a foot wide at the end.

    it wouldn't need it. The fore and aft stays do not go all the way to the ends, but secure to the deck at about the waterline length.
    "If you think you are too small to make a difference, try sleeping with a mosquito"

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  11. #11
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    Default Re: OVerhang envy

    Quote Originally Posted by skuthorp View Post
    Built to a rating I expect. I wonder if a 'hog' is built in to compensate for the rigging strain?
    And yes, a piece of sculpture as much as a sailboat.
    I once looked at a Seabird that had had a long, narrow spoon stern built on to get the mizzen aft of the rudder. About a foot wide at the end.
    What appears to be hogging is more likely a visual effect of deck edge with the camera angle looking up.
    Tom L

  12. #12
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    Default Re: OVerhang envy

    There's no hog, not much shoulder to stand on where I took the picture and traffic was making me nervous.
    Steve

    If you would have a good boat, be a good guy when you build her - honest, careful, patient, strong.
    H.A. Calahan

  13. #13
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    Default Re: OVerhang envy

    Quote Originally Posted by stromborg View Post


    This showed up along the side off the road a while back, usually covered by a series of blue tarps. International One Design? Glad I don't have to keep up the brightwork.
    That keel shape looks vaguely familiar to me, but I can't place it, I'm probably thinking of some swing-keel boat with similar centerboard lines. I'm not an expert on boats in this class.
    When you can take the pebble from my hand, it will be time for you to leave.

  14. #14
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    Default Re: OVerhang envy

    Dunno about there being any similar swing keelers. It just looks like a classic 30 Square. See an outdated page at

    https://www.sskf.se/info/engindex.htm

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    Default Re: OVerhang envy

    Doesn't look like she would ride too well in a seaway.

    I see more beauty in designs adapted to nature than to some rule they are trying to get around.

  16. #16
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    Default Re: OVerhang envy

    It's not designed for a seaway. It's designed largely for the natural environment of the Swedish archipelago in the Baltic, and partly to race and be beautiful to sail. Why design a boat for conditions it is unlikely to ever face?

  17. #17
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    Default Re: OVerhang envy

    That excessive overhang in the bow, coupled with the crook on the stem (probably meant to save weight above the fully heeled waterline), seems to have little do with conditions. And I bet those Baltic bays get choppy on a fine sailing day.

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    Default Re: OVerhang envy

    The overhang extends the waterline length and according to some designers, eased motion in a light displacement boat in chop. It does that without increasing wetted surface, which would happen if the waterline length was extended. They were not required by the rules, which were initially little more than a sail area measurement that had very few hull measurements to "get around".

    Yes, the curve in the stem may have been intended to reduce weight - so????? Is unnecessary weight a good thing per se?

    To many people, the feel and performance of a wonderfully tuned instrument of sailing like a Skerry Cruiser is similar as the feel and performance of a finely built, properly tuned musical instrument. The challenge of racing them is like the challenge of surfing a big wave, cycling up a high mountain pass, turning a finely-crafted piece of timber, climbing a tough rock face, or achieving peak performance in a symphony orchestra. Why reduce that to a sneering remark about trying to get around rules?

    By the way, have you noticed how many of your posts involve you sneering at someone or something from your own heights of lofty superiority?

  19. #19
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    Default Re: OVerhang envy

    Quote Originally Posted by Chris249 View Post
    The overhang extends the waterline length and according to some designers, eased motion in a light displacement boat in chop. It does that without increasing wetted surface, which would happen if the waterline length was extended.
    So it extends the waterline length, but does so without extending it?

    By the way, have you noticed how many of your posts involve you sneering at someone or something from your own heights of lofty superiority?
    Still upset about what you learned in the Hiroshima thread?

  20. #20
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    Default Re: OVerhang envy

    My mistake - I should have said the overhangs extend the waterline length when the boat is heeled and at speed (ie when wavemaking drag is the main issue), without increasing wetted surface when the boat is at low speeds and upright.

    What I learned from the Hiroshima thread and the others in which I have read your posts is how you sneer at others from your own self-erected pedestal.
    Last edited by Chris249; 09-01-2020 at 08:40 AM.

  21. #21
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Chris249 View Post
    My mistake - I should have said the overhangs extend the waterline length when the boat is heeled and at speed (ie when wavemaking drag is the main issue), without increasing wetted surface when the boat is at low speeds and upright.

    What I learned from the Hiroshima thread and the others in which I have read your posts is how you sneer at others from your own self-erected pedestal.

    Boats like 30 squares, International Rule (6m) or Universal Rule (J-class) about double their waterline length between floating level and rail-down.
    You would not enjoy Nietzsche, sir. He is fundamentally unsound. — P.G. Wodehouse (Carry On, Jeeves)

  22. #22
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    Default Re: OVerhang envy

    To understand Skerry Cruisers, you need to imagine yourself on a Skerry. Not the only Skerry around, but hundreds or even thousands of them. Just to mention the Aalands, 6,500 islands and that is not counting every rock that sticks out of the water. People live on these Skerrys, some permanently, some in summer or on weekends only. Where the Skerry density is high, the waters closer to shore are very well protected from nasty chop. Now, living on a Skerry, you need a boat to go shopping or to visit others or ... . Before motors were very common, you wanted a somewhat fast sailing boat, mainly for people transport but probably also for the goods you shopped. Internal space was not much of a consideration, just enough so you could spend a night or two if the wind was not there or to make visits further away. A keel boat has the advantage of not capsizing and is thus more suited towards the less than perfect sailor. Of course, people started to race them against each other ... .

    They are good boats for the place for which they were desiged. Because they also look good, over the years, many have found their way to the southern Baltic or even the North Sea, but they are not ideal for these less sheltered waters.
    Last edited by Henning 4148; 09-01-2020 at 10:39 AM.

  23. #23
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    Default Re: OVerhang envy

    There's been several here in NZ, I've raced against one regularly many times. They do extremely well, just wet. . Two of our most famous classic yachts have their roots in the type, basically being developed from Baccante. Much bigger than a 30 sq of course at 60 ft plus.

  24. #24
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    Default Re: OVerhang envy

    My boat has a roughly 12 ft. counter stern. While she does not like sailing on her ear (rail down), the difference between upright & water 6" below the caprail is about 8 ft. in OAL. Unscientific testing shows her gaining a knot or a bit more at the sweet spot. I attribute that to the w/l length increasing from 39' to 47 or so.

    YMMV.
    "If it ain't broke, you're not trying." - Red Green

  25. #25
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    Default Re: OVerhang envy

    I'll go back and see if I can get a better picture or two, looking at the sun-faded registration, I think the boat was from Ohio but hard to tell. If I happen to see anybody working on her I'll stop and ask some questions.
    Steve

    If you would have a good boat, be a good guy when you build her - honest, careful, patient, strong.
    H.A. Calahan

  26. #26
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    Default Re: OVerhang envy

    This dilettante asks, didn’t Uffa Fox sail one (or something much like one.. Vigilant?) over to England from somewhere in Scandanavia to race and afterward comment on how well it performed at sea? Just a stunt? Chalk it up to self promotion?
    Last edited by NickN; 09-02-2020 at 02:17 PM.

  27. #27
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    Default Re: OVerhang envy

    Much of what Uffa Fox did or wrote was self promotion.Not all of it was unjustified and it may have advanced the cause of sailing in some respects.

  28. #28
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    Default Re: OVerhang envy

    Glad you put up a photo, Steve. I thought I was seeing things as I drove past her. She sat covered all last winter. I'm happy that there is care being taken now.

    Jeff

  29. #29
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    Default Re: OVerhang envy

    Quote Originally Posted by Chris249 View Post
    They were not required by the rules, which were initially little more than a sail area measurement that had very few hull measurements to "get around".
    While they were not required by any rule, they were designed to increase performance and stay within the rule. And the ratings rules certainly used the boats waterline lengt or rated length pretty early on. Did not the universal rule get implemented aroudn the turn of the century? I doubt it was the first rule that used the boat's length.

    And they extend the waterline length when the boat is heeled, but not when she is level and being measured. To my knowledge it didn't have that much to do with wetted surface.

  30. #30
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    Default Re: OVerhang envy

    She is definitely a 30 square, but I can’t remember her name. ‘Hansina’ or something like that. The owner, I believe, has passed on. I am sorry to be so foggy on details. He had another 30 that I tried to put a group together to buy, but failed. Eventually the boat went to Germany, where she wound up winning big. ‘Pilgrim’ was that boat’s name.

    George Fisher? Perhaps that was the name? Had I seen her sitting there I may have had a wreck after staring so hard at her. She is a dream come true.

    Mickey Lake
    'A disciple of the Norse god of aesthetically pleasing boats, Johan Anker'

  31. #31
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    Default Re: OVerhang envy

    I was right on my guesses. George was the guy who restored ‘Hansina’, a Harry Becker design. She is such a beautiful boat. I had e-mailed George for years and met him at the PMYC once.

    I found a thread from 2008 about ‘Pilgrim’. All I can say is that I sure wish I could re-capture some of that enthusiasm.

    Mickey Lake
    'A disciple of the Norse god of aesthetically pleasing boats, Johan Anker'

  32. #32
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    Default Re: OVerhang envy

    Quote Originally Posted by peb View Post
    While they were not required by any rule, they were designed to increase performance and stay within the rule. And the ratings rules certainly used the boats waterline lengt or rated length pretty early on. Did not the universal rule get implemented aroudn the turn of the century? I doubt it was the first rule that used the boat's length.

    And they extend the waterline length when the boat is heeled, but not when she is level and being measured. To my knowledge it didn't have that much to do with wetted surface.
    There were, as you say, many "rules" that used the boat's length for handicapping, but it was generally only with the Dixon Kemp-style rules in the 1880s that waterline rather than overall length became the main factor. The other factor is that the Dixon Kemp-style "Length and Sail Area" rules adopted by the RYA, Seawanhaka, NYYC etc were also the first rating rules to measure and rate sail area, which reined in the vast rigs of the boats that were rated only by their hull length.

    But from what I can find out, the increase in overhangs was not just a way to "get around" a rule, which was the claim I was writing about. George Watson states that the first effect of moving away from the old tonnage rules (which penalised beam and therefore created the "plank on edge" types) was to create more beam (although beam was not measured at all under the L x SA rules, it did give stability) and that in term required designers to create boats with more hollow sections "as with the added beam abnormal displacement would otherwise have been the result".

    Once there was no reason to create skinny boats, "overhang naturally increased somewhat, as it was apparent that it could become more usefully adopted with a shallow-bodied boat than with a narrow one, it being evident that the natural way of forming the stem and counter was to follow the general buttock lines of the fore and aft body". (My emphasis).

    Watson referred to the fact that the overhang on the fairly deep boats built up till 1890 was "a distinct advantage, as it gave a fine, easy, and at the same time lifting, bow in a sea, eased the bow riband lines when the boat lay down and was hard driven reaching, and carried the side fairly out aft in the long counter". So Watson is clearly saying that the early 1880s development of overhangs had good functional benefits. He goes on to say that displacement was then cut down as development went on, but that "length ran up wet surface" as well as affecting rating. By "length" in this sentence Watson must have meant waterline length, because overall length under the rule did not affect rating. So Watson is saying that adding waterline length added wetted surface, which reduces light air speed. Overhangs didn't increase wetted surface in the same way.

    A boat with a classic 30 Square's rig, cotton sails, construction, displacement, etc would (IMHO) be slower with no overhangs or with more moderate ones, therefore the overhangs are not just "getting around a rule". Modern boats have different dynamics because of modern rigs, materials, sail sizes and construction.

    Watson went on to say that the later development towards lighter and shallower hulls meant that "overhang has of course increased, the flat sections carrying out naturally into overhangs forward and aft, which almost double the water-line length of the boat on deck". Again, we see that one of the world's great designers repeatedly wrote that overhangs were a "natural" development of a certain hull shape.

    One of the interesting points that comes out from 19th century overhang development and discussion is that the boats designed around LOA limits are themselves often very distorted. A performance boat with a "natural" amount of flare at the mid section must have distorted lines up high around the bow if the flare is to end in a vertical stem.  Similarly, WP Stephens noted that the sandbagger types, which were ruled by LOA only, were heavily distorted hulls.

    Arthur Payne said that overhangs added expense without adding accommodation, but his experienced friend Victor Montagu preferred the extra speed of overhangs and the fact that they allowed the jib to be dropped without anyone going out to the end of a bowsprit, and the main to be reefed "in comparative safety" compared to doing the same on a boat with similar sail area and waterline length, but no overhangs.

    As with quite a few other issues, a lot of this seems to get down to the culture we come from, and its way of labelling a boat's size both in rating terms but also in more general terms. Of course, if one increases sail area everything changes - but that costs a lot of money as the design spiral kicks in. I come from a culture where overhangs were often non-existent but the resultant boats are arguably just as much a "distortion" as a 30 Square Metre is, but in the other direction.
    Last edited by Chris249; 09-02-2020 at 08:19 PM.

  33. #33
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    Default Re: OVerhang envy

    The first boat I raced after a long period of sailing Stars was an older glass 5.5 metre. We were racing in a Portsmouth fleet and though we were holding our own I wasn’t that happy with a boat I thought would be very good upwind in 12 knots of breeze. We were trying to keep the boat flat, or almost flat. I had sailed some in 470’s where we wanted to sail flat, and in the Star class, where you want the weather chine just barely off the water.

    Things began to pick up a little and the boat began to heel some and it was like we kicked on the rocket booster. When the wind eased off we balanced the boat where the waterline stayed long and the boat was still motoring. We wound up winning overall in a fleet of about 70 boats, and I felt like I had learned something.

    Man, sometimes I really, really miss racing.

    Mickey Lake
    'A disciple of the Norse god of aesthetically pleasing boats, Johan Anker'

  34. #34
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    Default Re: OVerhang envy

    I sailed a 5.5 a few times. It was a lovely piece of work, fairly new and still competitive at top level, very well equipped. The owner also had a share in a timber 59' Alden ketch that he and his partners put through a full rebuild. The Sydney fleet seems to have held its renewed strength after the recent worlds here, which is nice.

    I've had a winter largely off racing, with worlds cancelled and postponed for obvious reasons. The new season starts next weekend for the small boats, and we're hoping to rebuild the local club after a disastrous season last time around, with the worst-ever fires and drought causing obvious problems. We have done some racing with the J/36 which is quite fun now we've set it up for fast cruising/shorthanding.

    The other "classic" class I'm involved with is the revived original Windsurfer - not the normal classic but certainly deserving of the title. The new version is the top selling class in the world, out-selling Opti and Laser combined. It seems that every week a new fleet is popping up, in places like Malta, Finland, etc. We and the Italians get over 100 entries to our national events. At a time when so much sailing is struggling, it's a wonderful feeling to see a class one used to run during its leanest period now in an absolute boom again.

    Funnily enough, the top longboard windsurfers all have overhangs whereas development class dinghies tend to have vertical stems. The fact that the fastest boards have overhangs seems to underline that while they don't always work, they certainly do have uses apart from rule dodging.

  35. #35
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    Default Re: OVerhang envy

    not surprised, these are lean times. Small boats rule when times are lean, does it get any smaller than a windsurfer?
    "If you think you are too small to make a difference, try sleeping with a mosquito"

    -Dalai Lama

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