Results 1 to 17 of 17

Thread: Angus sailing row cruiser rig options

  1. #1
    Join Date
    Jul 2015
    Location
    St. Paul, MN
    Posts
    193

    Default Angus sailing row cruiser rig options

    For the past year Iíve been trying to figure out how to convert Hugh Hortonís Bufflehead to a tandem, beach cruising trimaran. No matter how I work the numbers Iíd need to stretch the hull to 20í to get the necessary cruising load of 475# and this would be with a backpacker amount of gear. I can build everything but the main hull in my shop. The main hull would need to be built in my garage. After building Gentrys Ruth I know that 18í 6Ē is the absolute length limit. Which is all a long winded way of saying Iíve decided to build the Angus sailing rowcruiser if I can figure out some rig details.
    DA9D2C11-844A-4752-9949-7B62C4E6B394.jpg
    I will be able to keep well under the 880# load capacity for the row cruiser. Iíve grown fond of sliding seat rowing and I love the idea of taking turns on light wind days. I built the sliding seat rig and oars from Angus plans so I can transfer the oars and seat from my Ruth when necessary. The main use would be beach cruising in Lake Superior and Lake Michigan. Beaching and sleeping in tents at night.

    The row cruiser uses the rig from the Bic Oípen. The luff sleeve means taking the sail down or reefing is best done on shore. Reefing is done by moving the mizzen forward and rigging a smaller sail on half of the main mast as a mizzen.
    A25CF950-AAB9-4744-BC10-5F049F89AED0.jpg
    I can appreciate the economy and efficiency of this setup but I really want to be able to reef on the water easily. The row cruiser has a 48 ft2 main and a 30 ft2 mizzen for a total of 78 ft2. I will be sailing two up most of the time so with more live ballast and easy reefing Iíd like to increase the sail area.

    Iím thinking of using the Sailrite canoe sail. It uses mast hoops which will be less efficient than a luff sleeve but it seems a fair trade off for its usability. It's boomless but Iíd use it loose footed with a boom and set it up with two, single line slab reefs. Iím thinking 57 ft2 for the main and 37 ft2 for the mizzen for a total of 94 ft2. This is a bit of a guesstimate and any guidance would be appreciated. I would need a halyard, boomvang, outhaul, reef lines and a mainsheet for each mast. If I use dyneema and low friction rings for everything but the sheets I can keep the weight down.
    31EACF46-BE7E-4367-B44A-917EBF0FD98A.jpg
    Iíve spent the past 25 years racing and cruising marconi sloops. I like bashing to windward and being able to have total control over sail trim. I find when possible flattening the sails does a better job controlling heel and boat handling than reefing. I like active, athletic sailing. I have a 22ft keel boat that Iíve probably rigged twenty times so I have a good idea what it will take to set up my proposed rig.

    The batwing gunter for bufflehead is intriguing,

    628C26D7-CDD6-416D-825B-09CC1AAF4425.jpg
    I think reefing would be a bit more work than slab reefing and the advantage of the mast reefing with the sail is less important on a boat with amas. I think the total weight probably would be higher for the Bufflehead rig I can trim a marconi main in my sleep and this alone seems to me to be an important consideration.

    I welcome any suggestions or criticisms of my plan. I might be overthinking the difficulty of the Oípen rig and would love to hear from anyone with some experience.

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    Texas
    Posts
    6,633

    Default Re: Angus sailing row cruiser rig options

    I’m looking forward to the discussion. I was not aware of the reefing plan for the Angus, so thanks.

    Unlike you, I’m looking for simple, easy, stow-able. And was leaning towards a loose footed lug.

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Location
    Bainbridge Island WA
    Posts
    3,857

    Default Re: Angus sailing row cruiser rig options

    You might talk directly to Jeff at Sailrite. Given the dimensions of your sail I bet he could put together a sail using hoops. I've built sails for two boats that were not in his files when I asked for them.
    Steve

    If you would have a good boat, be a good guy when you build her - honest, careful, patient, strong.
    H.A. Calahan

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Jul 2015
    Location
    St. Paul, MN
    Posts
    193

    Default Re: Angus sailing row cruiser rig options

    Quote Originally Posted by stromborg View Post
    You might talk directly to Jeff at Sailrite. Given the dimensions of your sail I bet he could put together a sail using hoops. I've built sails for two boats that were not in his files when I asked for them.

    Luckily, the Sailrite sails come stock with hoops and in 37 ft2 and 47 ft2. The changes I would need is reefing points for both sails and to increase the main to 57 ft2. I’ve sailed but never owned a boat with fully battened sails and am looking forward to having one.

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Jul 2015
    Location
    St. Paul, MN
    Posts
    193

    Default Re: Angus sailing row cruiser rig options

    Quote Originally Posted by bluedog225 View Post
    I’m looking forward to the discussion. I was not aware of the reefing plan for the Angus, so thanks.

    Unlike you, I’m looking for simple, easy, stow-able. And was leaning towards a loose footed lug.
    I think your plan sounds sensible. How would you sheet the mizzenmast? Boomkin?

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    Texas
    Posts
    6,633

    Default Re: Angus sailing row cruiser rig options

    I suppose I’d go with a small balanced lug on the mizzen. Or something similar that I could set and forget. With my Sea Pearl, I rarely mess with the mizzen underway. But I’m not all that interested in peak performance.

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Posts
    824

    Default Re: Angus sailing row cruiser rig options

    Have you checked out the offerings from CLC for kayak-like trimarans?

    https://www.clcboats.com/shop/kit_op...-rig/1155.html

    This might be a little bigger than you want but it is reefable. They also offer 55 and 40 sq ft sails but they can't be reefed.

    Their sails are made by Doug Fowler and are high quality. I bought a standing lug from them and am very happy with it.

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Jun 2013
    Posts
    3,418

    Default Re: Angus sailing row cruiser rig options

    Ninety four square feet sounds like a huge rig for a boat with small amas, which can't be hiked. I've sailed several small tris (HSP, Supernova, Tri Fli, Dugout, Windrider) and would be surprised if that sort of rig could be handled in a blow. My gut feeling is that the stability of the lee ama would be less than the stability provided by a hard-hiking Laser sailor, for example, and they are often depowering with a 70ft sail. Ninety four is not much less rig than in an International Canoe, and we're depowering quite early on despite the enormous stability of the sailor hiking off the sliding seat.

    Tri designers have told me that the length of the amas is a limiting factor in tri speed, so even a big rig may not push the Angus very quickly.

    Although I grew up with fully battened sails and own about.......errr, far too many of them, ranging from windsurfer sails to the main on the J/36 and the jibs on the Formula 18 and Tasar. It's often ignored that battens are really heavy compared to comparable sailcloth. That is, even carbon/foam battens are a lot heavier than the laminate sails you use such battens with. Many of the high-tech looking modern windsurfer sails, for example, are about 250% the weight of the original dacron Windsurfer sail from the late '60s, because of the battens. Sure, full battens have many advantages but they come with their own disadvantages as well. I do wonder about the Bic sail, which fits three battens into a tiny area. Why not just use seam taper and downhaul for draft control? Because it's got one less batten, the Bufflehead rig could be considerably lighter than the Bic one.

    The pic of the CLC sail shows one issue with boomless rigs - three of the six telltales are completely stalled, showing that there is no way to properly sheet a sail that is twisting off by about 35 degrees, becoming way too full low down, and very flat in the head. Secondly, if you have a fairly flexible mast then going upwind your mainsheet tension is bending the mast and depowering the sail, which is obviously a good thing. However, when you ease the mainsheet in a gust, the clew can lift which reduces leach tension, allows the mast to go straight, and therefore makes the sail fuller just when you want it flatter. Thirdly, when the sail is very deep down low, when you start sheeting on the clew starts developing power a long time before the luff and the lead, which can cause weather helm issues. The Bufflhead's wishbone largely solves those issues, and also reduces mainsheet tension which allows you to play the sheet more easily.

    Little tris seem to like flat sails, to my recollection, so your trimming experience will be very valuable. You may find the shape very different, however, since the draft %s you'll be trying to achieve are probably in a different order to the ones you often look for in short-batten "pinhead" yacht sails. I'm no sailmaker and it's been eons since I sailed a little tri, but I wouldn't be surprised if at the top of the range you were looking for 2% draft or less in the head compared to the 9-10% you'd be using in many pinhead yacht sails in such conditions.

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Aug 2015
    Location
    Austin, TX
    Posts
    493

    Default Re: Angus sailing row cruiser rig options

    Chris make a good point about the Angus’s amas size, the look to be more for safety not power.
    Howard Rice has done a lot of canoe sailing and design work/thought. I think it’s pretty interesting that he ended up with a Bermudian Sloop. He writes that his first reef is to take in the jib, the start reduction the main. His last move is to put up a tiny bit of fabric and sail with that (storm main I guess) His approach is out of the norm for many canoe sailers but in the UK Bermudians are popular no jib. They are taller yes, but do not have a spar up high either, I have started using one on my canoe and do see it has some advantages. The sloop looks handy to me as there is only one mast, all controls are there, once the jib is in and the main drops a bit, the whole system is getting pretty small. I am not sure I would want 2 masts.

    note, Howard Rice is also very serious about spar weight. Carbon and light.

    Question, for two people are you going to reduce the size of the cabin?

    B7A6F569-16B1-481B-B024-FA6E0E11F527.jpg
    Last edited by Matt young; 08-15-2020 at 08:01 AM.
    "Yeah, well, that's just, like your opinion man"
    -The Dude-

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Jul 2015
    Location
    St. Paul, MN
    Posts
    193

    Default Re: Angus sailing row cruiser rig options

    Thank you Chris249 for your detailed response. Just what I needed. In video of the Rowcruiser in R2AK it looks as if Colin Angus is able to hike. Not to the extent that a dinghy sailor can. Because the cockpit is fairly far back I’m sure it’s not as effective as if it where amidship. I had planned on making provisions for hiking straps. I was toying around with the idea of putting a 14” section of netting between the akas next to the hull. It would allow crew to sit there with their feet on the amas. Get the weight outboard and further forward. Probably a bit wet but wetsuits are mandatory where a sail anyway.

    94ft2 is probably pushing it. I’ve written to Angus rowing for a recommendation. The increase in size was based on them saying the design could handle more sail.

    I’ve mostly sailed stayed rigs where mast bend can be controlled by the backstay. I would have thought the boomvang would stop the clew from lifting as the sail is eased. I can see now how easing the sail for a puff would allow the clew to raise if the main sheet was trimmed for mast bend.

    I’ve camp cruised in the Hobie Islander so I am familiar with boomless rigs. It performed better than I expected it to but everything you said about them was confirmed by my experience.

    I would never have thought that I would need as low as 2% draft on a sail. Good to know.

    Angus says the max speed is 11kts with a cruising speed of 4. I think the point of the amas is that they plane so they’re not limited by hull speed. Of course this only matters if your moving.

    Matt Young,

    I do like sloop rigs but a central mast would make rowing a lot more difficult. I also like the idea of being able to go wing on wing with a boom on each sail for running. I’ve spent to much of my life kneeling in the cockpit trimming a spinnaker.

    I would like to keep the option open to sleep in the cabin. The cabin bulkhead also serves to reenforce the daggerboard trunk. The cockpit is 5’ long which is sufficient if I can get the weight distribution correct. I plan on storing nothing in the aft hatch and almost all gear in two 100L dry bags which would be in the forward end of the cabin. I also want to build the outriggers for the oars into the hull so they don’t cut off the back of the cockpit. I think I will need to do a mock up of the cockpit before I build anything to make sure it all feels right.

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Jul 2015
    Location
    St. Paul, MN
    Posts
    193

    Default Re: Angus sailing row cruiser rig options

    One huge advantage of the O’pen rig is that each sail is only $200 from Intensity Sails. It might be worth it to keep the sail area the same and have the sails converted to hoops with reef points. Start with aluminum tube for masts until I make sure I’m happy with the rig. My investment would be low enough that it wouldn’t be tragic if I had make major changes. If only the sails didn’t have that damn red trim.

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Jul 2015
    Location
    St. Paul, MN
    Posts
    193

    Default Re: Angus sailing row cruiser rig options

    I received a fast and helpful response from Colin Angus. He sees no problems with my plan and confirmed that with easy reefing the rowcruiser could handle more sail. He didn’t give me a specific number however. If I did a 10% increase it would bring me to 85ft2. If I put the reefs at 16% of luff length I would get 68ft2 for the first reef and 52ft2 for the second. Because of the close to rectangular shape of the sail I’m thinking the reefs need to be deeper. This is out of my wheelhouse enough that I would consult with Sailrite for recommendations.

    I think the Sailrite kit is the way to go. It’s only slightly more expensive than the Intensity O’pen sails and probably higher quality. Modifying the O’pen sails seems more difficult than making a kit cut to my exact specs.

    I realize that my proposed rig might seem a bit complicated for such a small boat. For me it’s part of the fun of building and sailing.

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Location
    Sound Beach, NY
    Posts
    4,514

    Default Re: Angus sailing row cruiser rig options

    Great! Keep us posted.

  14. #14
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Location
    Queenstown, NewZealand
    Posts
    322

    Default Re: Angus sailing row cruiser rig options

    Have you looked at the Michael Storer / Really Simple Sails Laminate Sails for his Viola Sailing Dinghy? Put a 6 m^2 one on the front and a 4.7 m^2 one on the back?

    https://www.storerboatplans.com/boat...ailing-dinghy/

    I think these sails are reefable to some extent. Check with Michael (Boatmik) or Joost. I'm curious how you get on with an alternative rig for the Rowcruiser, I'm building a similar concept SOF at the moment, initially as a sliding seat rower but with the aim of having a sailing option with Amas similar to the Angus Rowcruiser.

  15. #15
    Join Date
    Jul 2015
    Location
    St. Paul, MN
    Posts
    193

    Default Re: Angus sailing row cruiser rig options

    Quote Originally Posted by IanHowick View Post
    Have you looked at the Michael Storer / Really Simple Sails Laminate Sails for his Viola Sailing Dinghy? Put a 6 m^2 one on the front and a 4.7 m^2 one on the back?

    https://www.storerboatplans.com/boat...ailing-dinghy/

    I think these sails are reefable to some extent. Check with Michael (Boatmik) or Joost. I'm curious how you get on with an alternative rig for the Rowcruiser, I'm building a similar concept SOF at the moment, initially as a sliding seat rower but with the aim of having a sailing option with Amas similar to the Angus Rowcruiser.
    Those two sails would total 10.7 m2 or 115 ft2 which would be way too much. I do like how the luff sleeve stops short of the boom allowing for at least one reef. For my intended use I really need to be able to get the sail all the way down on the water.

    If do go the route of having the sails made Really Simple Sails would be a good resource. I’m leaning to making my own from a kit not only to save money but to set myself Up if I need to modify my chosen rig down the line.

    I’ve toyed with the idea of using sails with a luff rope with a rotating mast as I think it would be more efficient than mast hoops. I can’t think of a way to do it in way that isn’t ridiculously expensive or adds too much weight. Mast hoops also have the advantage of being much more user friendly.

  16. #16
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Location
    Queenstown, NewZealand
    Posts
    322

    Default Re: Angus sailing row cruiser rig options

    Thanks, yes, I'm following with interest, your experience with putting a sailing rig on the Angus Rowcruiser will be invaluable when I come to putting one on my sail-row-cruiser. Mine will be somewhat longer (6.5 m), narrower (0.86 m), probably less than half the weight of the Angus Row cruiser. Still have to figure out the details and size/spread of the amas.

    Do you have any details of the spars you will be using, what's the plan there?

    Thanks

  17. #17
    Join Date
    Jul 2015
    Location
    St. Paul, MN
    Posts
    193

    Default Re: Angus sailing row cruiser rig options

    Quote Originally Posted by IanHowick View Post
    Do you have any details of the spars you will be using, what's the plan there?

    Thanks
    The Sailrite sail is designed for 1 1/2Ē aluminum tubing which is probably what I would start with. If the sail plan is any indication it looks like itís cut for a somewhat flexible mast. I can get 6061 for both masts for $120.00. If I can find 7075 for a reasonable price I would go that route. Aluminum will only weigh 30% more than carbon and save a ton of money.

    I have access to 1/45Ē spruce veneer and I want to experiment to see if I could use it to make a boom. My shop mate makes wooden skis and uses a press consisting of two i beams with a firehose in between that can be inflated to 80 psi. I would make the inner part of the boom in two halfís with Unibond in the press, glue then together and than vacuum bag with epoxy more veneers top and bottom. I havenít run the numbers but this is a rough idea of what Iím thinking,

    6B8AC60F-7AAF-4798-A818-08EFDC61E137.jpg

    I have to see how my business is effected by Covid before I commit any real money to this project. I plan on doing fussy things like messing with the boom or making the akas or working on the rudder until things stabilize.

    Your project sounds fun but in some ways more challenging than mine. I would think throwing sails in the ends of the boat would twist a SOF. I built Gentrys Ruth SOF which I love but would have to be reenforced to take a sail. A good route to go might be to integrate a ring frame with the forward aka as well as a place to attach a leeboard. As if your building a catamaran that drops into your SOF. I have plans for CLC kayak sailing rig and theyíre really well thought out. Keeping the single mast and akas out of the way for rowing would be problematic.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •