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Thread: The believed abstraction of a 12 foot clinker dinghy.

  1. #281
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    Default Re: The believed abstraction of a 12 foot clinker dinghy.

    Quote Originally Posted by Peerie Maa View Post
    I'll be interested to see how that works in practice.
    A high aspect foil may be prone to stalling out, and make the dinghy twitchy and lack directional stability.
    Looking forward to the results of the trial sails.
    Hello Nick.
    Yes, regarding sea trials it will be an interesting day indeed.
    This whole exercise has been a compromise of ideas and considerations.
    There is a wealth of information out there, a lot of it scientifically and mathmatically proven combined with a similar amount of high wind/low wind, high speed/ low speed ,fore and against scenarios.
    So it's a case of picking out what I think will work ( educated guessing I like to call it ) for this particular craft.
    Bottom line... if it's not right I will just make another one that is.
    As my father says "We will panic when we get there".

    Thanks for your interest and comments,
    Cheers,
    Mike.
    Last edited by Mike1902; 02-18-2021 at 08:00 PM.

  2. #282
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    Default Re: The believed abstraction of a 12 foot clinker dinghy.

    Quote Originally Posted by Max F View Post
    No doubt, it will perform beautifully.
    How are you planing to seal the trailing edge?
    Keep on rockin.
    Cheers
    Max
    Hi Max,
    Here's hoping that it will perform. Still a little way off yet but a day I look forward to.
    To answer your question, I am considering applying carbon tape to the fore and aft edges followed by a 200gm glass cloth overlay.
    I am also thinking about a 1mm rebate in the ply to take the tape and keep it flush for the cloth overlay.
    Cheers,
    Mike.

  3. #283
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    Default Re: The believed abstraction of a 12 foot clinker dinghy.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jfitzger View Post
    Thanks for documenting your centerboard build so well. So much clearer than the linked article. I kind of want to build one for the fun of it.
    Thanks mate.
    I'm finding the process very enjoyable. Still a little way to go yet.
    Cheers,
    Mike.

  4. #284
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    Default Re: The believed abstraction of a 12 foot clinker dinghy.

    I'm making centre boards for my Paper Tiger using a more standard way with lengths of Cedar, a track and sled made from wood, and a router.
    A couple of hours into the shaping of the blanks I decided that I was following the method used by sailors not woodworkers.
    I could easily and quietly make the same blanks with a sharp hand plane and a pattern to show me where to remove material.
    I like your method, which could easily produce a light, accurate foil without the work I'm putting into it.

  5. #285
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    Default Re: The believed abstraction of a 12 foot clinker dinghy.

    Quote Originally Posted by Slacko View Post
    I'm making centre boards for my Paper Tiger using a more standard way with lengths of Cedar, a track and sled made from wood, and a router.
    A couple of hours into the shaping of the blanks I decided that I was following the method used by sailors not woodworkers.
    I could easily and quietly make the same blanks with a sharp hand plane and a pattern to show me where to remove material.
    I like your method, which could easily produce a light, accurate foil without the work I'm putting into it.
    Gidday Slacko,
    As is oft said on this forum "there's more than one way to do the job".
    The loud and dusty router verse the soothing tones of a hand plane sliding over timber , I guess it depends on your mood and how much time you have.
    Me personally will go for the machine and jig every time, accurate and fast. Hand tools have their place but if I can find a way for a machine to do the same thing I'll go with that.
    On the dagger board front, I have complicated a simple plan which has lengthened the construction process, laminating the two spars, sealing the inside of the panels with three coats of resin to name a couple and there is more to come.
    Never having tried this method before makes it an interesting exercise and I dare say that the more it's done the quicker it will get.
    Spent two hours yesterday gluing it all up, will post the result later but off yacht racing now.
    Cheers,
    Mike.

  6. #286
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    Default Re: The believed abstraction of a 12 foot clinker dinghy.

    Spent a couple of hours epoxying the dagger board together yesterday.
    It was a process, especially timing the batches of mix to avoid waste.

    IMG-4093.jpgIMG-4099.jpg

    First up was priming the inside of the panels where the spars and carbon would lay.
    This was then followed by priming the two spars and wetting out the carbon fiber.

    IMG-4101.jpgIMG-4113.jpg

    The main spar was then glued and screwed to one of the panels (where it had previously been dry fitted ) then the panels were pulled together and the opposite panel was glued and screwed to the main spar.
    Next came the tricky little operation of dropping the carbon tape into the void, laying it along the spar and evenly up both sides.
    The secondary spar was then fixed in place. I used a couple of spacer blocks on top of the primary spar to hold the secondary spar at the correct height while fixing through the predrilled holes.

    IMG-4105.jpg

    Thickened epoxy was placed along the top (aft ) mating surfaces of the panels and these were then clamped together between a couple of aluminium straight edges.

  7. #287
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    Default Re: The believed abstraction of a 12 foot clinker dinghy.

    Oooh yes,that looks like a tricky task.
    As a friend uses to say

    Propper prepparation prevents pss poor performance...

    Well done!

  8. #288
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    Default Re: The believed abstraction of a 12 foot clinker dinghy.

    Quote Originally Posted by Max F View Post
    Oooh yes,that looks like a tricky task.
    As a friend uses to say

    Propper prepparation prevents pss poor performance...

    Well done!
    I would have to agree with your friend there Max.
    Putting that 6P saying into practice would save you a lot of time, money and angst.

  9. #289
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    Default Re: The believed abstraction of a 12 foot clinker dinghy.

    The foil came out fairly well.
    There is a shallow flat spot that runs evenly full length down both sides in different areas, but nothing a small amount of fairing cannot handle.
    When I fastened the second panel to the primary spar I lay it on the bench top to apply pressure, this may have caused it to go slightly asymmetric. Next time I will draw the trailing edges together in the vertical position to create an even pressure before fastening.

    IMG-4117.jpgIMG-4118.jpg

    I have now routed a small rebate along both sides of the forward and trailing edges to take the carbon fiber strips that will reinforce the edges.
    This rebate will allow the carbon fiber to finish flush with the panel ready for the final overlay without the need to feather the edges.

    IMG-4124.jpgIMG-4128.jpg

    Two lengths of tape will wrap around the leading edge.
    One length of tape will lay along each side on the trailing edge.

    IMG-4133.jpg

    I will green trim the carbon tape along the rebate line adjacent to the masking tape for a clean straight finish.

  10. #290
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    Default Re: The believed abstraction of a 12 foot clinker dinghy.

    Nice. As someone stated it looked really heavy in the first photos...and bigger.
    ​In a world full of wonders, man invented boredom.

  11. #291
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    Default Re: The believed abstraction of a 12 foot clinker dinghy.

    Quote Originally Posted by WX View Post
    Nice. As someone stated it looked really heavy in the first photos...and bigger.
    At the time of the above image the board weighed 3.6 kgs (7.94 lbs).
    Board dimensions are 1480 mm ( 58") long by 360 mm (14") wide. 1 meter ( 39') of the board will be below the keel when fully inserted.
    The thickest point at 30% is 36 mm ( just over 1 3/8"). Will be closer to 1 1/2" when glassed and faired.
    I'm hoping it will be about 4.5 kgs ( 10lbs) when finished.

  12. #292
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    Default Re: The believed abstraction of a 12 foot clinker dinghy.

    Wonderfull!
    That flat spots may have developed too due to differences in density at the plywoood.
    A more careless builder wouldn´t have recognized it at all.
    I was just wondering if changing air pressure could affect a hollow blade that is completely enclosed?
    Maybe someone has some real life experiences with that.
    Cheers Max

  13. #293
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    Default Re: The believed abstraction of a 12 foot clinker dinghy.

    Quote Originally Posted by Max F View Post
    Wonderfull!
    That flat spots may have developed too due to differences in density at the plywoood.
    A more careless builder wouldn´t have recognized it at all.
    I was just wondering if changing air pressure could affect a hollow blade that is completely enclosed?
    Maybe someone has some real life experiences with that.
    Cheers Max
    Hi Max,
    The quality of the ply is excellent, so no problems there.
    I think it came down to way I fastened it all together. The holes were all predrilled but the panel may have been slightly up or down when I applied downward pressure while it was laying flat.
    Like I said before, next time I will draw the tail edges together in the vertical position and apply a more even pressure fully along the board before fixing.
    The distortion is very minimal but I thought I would point it out to anyone attempting this method that it is something to watch out for.
    As for air pressure distortion, only if it descends to the bottom of a very deep part of the ocean or maybe flies into the stratosphere.
    Cheers,
    Mike.
    Last edited by Mike1902; 03-18-2021 at 07:48 PM.

  14. #294
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    Default Re: The believed abstraction of a 12 foot clinker dinghy.

    Well let´s hope that both never will happen
    That part with the stratosphere would be a good story though.

    I know that "next time" very well!
    Seems like it is part of the game. No matter how well prepared is a task...

    Cheers Max

  15. #295
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    Default Re: The believed abstraction of a 12 foot clinker dinghy.

    I have completed the carbon strip edges on the daggerboard.
    Two layers were placed along the leading edge. I did this in two separate lays to avoid any air pockets and also to gauge how it filled the rebate .
    I have no vacuum bagging systems so rely on fast hardener, peel ply and perseverance.

    IMG-4149.jpg

    First lay prepped ready for the next.

    IMG-4150.jpgIMG-4154.jpg

    Second layer completed and held in place with peel ply.
    Peel ply removed and the result was pretty good.

    IMG-4159.jpgIMG-4157.jpg

    The trailing edge has one layer of carbon epoxied each side.
    The small triangular void between the two layers of carbon which was formed directly behind the squared off trailing edge of the board was filled with a mix of 406.
    Peel ply was then laid over both sides.
    The board was laid flat and the front edge raised so the carbon strip was directly against the plastic covered bench top. A plastic coated straight edge was then placed along the top of the carbon and weighted to apply pressure to the join.
    I removed the peel ply and trimmed the trailing edge while the resin was still green.
    In this pliable but none sticky state the peel ply will come off cleanly and it is possible to cut the carbon with a sharp knife. Saves a lot of dusty cutting later.

  16. #296
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    Default Re: The believed abstraction of a 12 foot clinker dinghy.

    Just had a decent read through your log there Mike.

    Very impressive indeed.

    For the rest of the crowd, Mike dropped by to look at my ilur build on his way through town.
    He was generous with his time and advice and encouragement. It was much appreciated for someone new to boatbuilding and actually sailing too and I count mysewlf lucky to have such a sharp builder drop by.

    Thanks!

  17. #297
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    Default Re: The believed abstraction of a 12 foot clinker dinghy.

    Quote Originally Posted by WayneT View Post
    Just had a decent read through your log there Mike.

    Very impressive indeed.

    For the rest of the crowd, Mike dropped by to look at my ilur build on his way through town.
    He was generous with his time and advice and encouragement. It was much appreciated for someone new to boatbuilding and actually sailing too and I count mysewlf lucky to have such a sharp builder drop by.

    Thanks!
    Thanks for the kind words there Wayne.
    You are creating another fine craft, to match those two hanging off the ceiling in your garage.
    Pleasure meeting you and viewing the progress.

    The Classic Yacht Yacht Regatta was cut short due to obvious reasons. We got one day of racing in before lockdown, the remaining two days have been postponed until it's safe to come out.

    Cheers,
    Mike.

  18. #298
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    Default Re: The believed abstraction of a 12 foot clinker dinghy.

    https://fb.watch/3Yh04sSDst/
    A bit off thread but it's filled with lots of wooden boats.
    Click the above link to enjoy Day 1 of the Auckland Classic Yacht regatta. I was crewing on Rawhiti A2.
    Unfortunately Auckland moved into Covid level 3 mode after just one day of competition. This meant a postponement of all remaining races until April...fingers crossed.
    Enjoy.

  19. #299
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    Default Re: The believed abstraction of a 12 foot clinker dinghy.

    So back to dagger board construction.

    IMG-4170.jpg

    The screw holes and carbon/ply joins have been filled and faired with 417 thickened epoxy.

    IMG-4179.jpgIMG-4178.jpg

    Three shaped blocks were then fitted into the voids at the base of the board.
    These blocks will eventually be glued into a shaped wooden foot and used to attach the foot back onto the board.

    IMG-4181.jpgIMG-4183.jpg

    The foot is made up of two Kauri blocks that will be laminated together after a bit of pre shaping and rebate prep for the carbon reinforced edge.
    The above images show the foil shape drawn onto the blocks and cut out beyond the line. This will be shaped to fit once glued to the board.

  20. #300
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    Default Re: The believed abstraction of a 12 foot clinker dinghy.

    Once the foil shape had been cut then an approximate perimeter profile was drawn and cut.

    IMG-4184.jpgIMG-4185.jpgIMG-4186.jpg

    A router pattern was then made and attached to each half.
    A 3 mm ( 1/8') deep rebate about 20 mm ( 3/4") wide was made around the outside bottom edge of each piece.
    This rebate will take a carbon fiber reinforcing strip that will help limit the damage to the bottom edge of the foot in the likely event of an unwanted grounding.

    IMG-4189.jpg

    In the above photo I am working out the depth of each tenon into the foot. It's also a good indication of how it all works.

  21. #301
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    Default Re: The believed abstraction of a 12 foot clinker dinghy.

    Well, just can´t stop to praise your work man.
    I think I need to get back to work on my centerboard quickly too.
    Cheers
    Max

  22. #302
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    Default Re: The believed abstraction of a 12 foot clinker dinghy.

    Quote Originally Posted by Max F View Post
    Well, just can´t stop to praise your work man.

    I think I need to get back to work on my centerboard quickly too.

    Cheers

    Max
    Cheers Max and yes, back to work on that centerboard mate, it will not build itself


    IMG-4191.jpgIMG-4192.jpg




    The plan shape of each tenon was drawn onto the top of the foot in it's appropriate location. The mortice cavities were then routered into the foot.

    I did each half separately with a wider sacrificial piece alongside to help steady the router and to help create the tapered mortice nearest the trailing edge.


    IMG-4193.jpg




    The two halves were then screwed together, cleaned up a bit and the tenons were test fit.



    IMG-4194.jpgIMG-4197.jpg



    The foot was then placed into the end of the dagger board to check the alignment, then tapped home to check the fit. All good.
    The slot around the bottom edge will be filled with layers of carbon fiber tape and the whole thing glued together before the final shaping begins.

  23. #303
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    Default Re: The believed abstraction of a 12 foot clinker dinghy.

    Had a bit of a glue up session yesterday afternoon.

    IMG-4204.jpg

    Eight layers of biaxial tape were required to fill the slot. The good thing about biaxial is that it will lay flat and still form to the curve along it's edge.
    I laid four pieces in each half saturated in epoxy and then aligned, screwed and glued the two halves together.
    The tenons were glued in to the foot with thickened epoxy and then the whole assembly was epoxied into the dagger board.
    Extra clamps were added to squeeze it all up.

    IMG-4205.jpg

    While the epoxy was still in a green state I trimmed the carbon tape and removed the (ferrous) alignment screws before they became a permanent fixture.
    A pull saw was used to cut gauging lines into the foot. I would use these for guidance when grinding off the excess timber with the sanding disc.

    IMG-4206.jpgIMG-4209.jpg

    A fairing block and random orbital sander were used to finish off this stage.

    IMG-4210.jpg

    Now the carving skills will be put to the test with a few guide lines and what's pleasing to the eye.

  24. #304
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    Default Re: The believed abstraction of a 12 foot clinker dinghy.

    Went a little conservative on the wood removal. I decided to keep some volume in the foot just to maintain the substance in that vulnerable area.

    IMG-4235.jpgIMG-4229.jpgIMG-4213.jpgIMG-4228.jpg

    Next is a layer of 200 gram cloth, weave fill and fairing.

  25. #305
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    Default Re: The believed abstraction of a 12 foot clinker dinghy.

    Wow!

    Ian
    Old Joke: ‘A bench fitter works to the nearest thousandth of an inch. A loco fitter (steam) works to the nearest inch. A shipwright works to the nearest ship’.”
    Alan Byde, Canoe Design and Construction, Pelham Books, 1978

    “...old maxim, 'A fair line supersedes any given measurement'.”
    Allan H. Vaitses, Lofting, International Marine, 1980

  26. #306
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    Default Re: The believed abstraction of a 12 foot clinker dinghy.

    I second that!
    Nice idea with the groove and carbon laid in.

  27. #307
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    Default Re: The believed abstraction of a 12 foot clinker dinghy.

    I was wonder how you were going to deal with the ends. My boat needs a new rudder sometime in the not-too-distant future, this thread has given me some ideas about how to go about building it.
    Steve

    If you would have a good boat, be a good guy when you build her - honest, careful, patient, strong.
    H.A. Calahan

  28. #308
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    Default Re: The believed abstraction of a 12 foot clinker dinghy.

    Quote Originally Posted by IanMilne View Post
    Wow!

    Ian
    Quote Originally Posted by Max F View Post
    I second that!
    Nice idea with the groove and carbon laid in.
    Quote Originally Posted by stromborg View Post
    I was wonder how you were going to deal with the ends. My boat needs a new rudder sometime in the not-too-distant future, this thread has given me some ideas about how to go about building it.
    Thank you Ian and Max.
    Hopefully that carbon strip will dull the pain ensuing from any hard knocks.

    Glad to be of help Stromborg.
    I also will be building the rudder in this fashion.
    Just sketching out some ideas regarding the cheeks. I would like the whole assembly to look "woody" and traditional above the waterline.

    Cheers guys,
    Mike.

  29. #309
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    Default Re: The believed abstraction of a 12 foot clinker dinghy.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike1902 View Post
    Thank you Ian and Max.
    Hopefully that carbon strip will dull the pain ensuing from any hard knocks.

    Glad to be of help Stromborg.
    I also will be building the rudder in this fashion.
    Just sketching out some ideas regarding the cheeks. I would like the whole assembly to look "woody" and traditional above the waterline.

    Cheers guys,
    Mike.
    IMG_4090 (1).jpg

    I am not sure if you want a kick up rudder. But I had the same desire to make mine look "woody" and traditional above the waterline. The case for the rudder is welded up out of stainless and painted so it is not too noticeable.
    Todd

  30. #310
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    Default Re: The believed abstraction of a 12 foot clinker dinghy.

    Masterful construction!

    Drift Boat Rick

  31. #311
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    Default Re: The believed abstraction of a 12 foot clinker dinghy.

    Quote Originally Posted by Quilbilly View Post
    IMG_4090 (1).jpg

    I am not sure if you want a kick up rudder. But I had the same desire to make mine look "woody" and traditional above the waterline. The case for the rudder is welded up out of stainless and painted so it is not too noticeable.
    Todd
    That's a fine looking set up you have there Todd. Nice foil on the rudder too.
    The final decision on a kick up or dagger type rudder is still yet to be made.
    The tiller will be passing through the transom, so that adds another factor into the mix.
    Cheers,
    Mike.

  32. #312
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    Default Re: The believed abstraction of a 12 foot clinker dinghy.

    Made up a rotating support to hold the dagger board.
    This will allow me to rotate the board along it's length and glass both sides at once with one length of cloth.

    IMG-4245.jpgIMG-4249.jpg

    In the left photo the flat spot along the length of the board has been addressed with 417 and faired.
    In the right photo the cloth has been draped over the leading edge ready for glassing tomorrow and is covered to protect it from dust.
    The dowel is a broom handle that has been press fitted into the board, it does hold the board on it's own but a support under the end is peace of mind.
    The batten screwed to the end support provides friction down onto the dowel which allows the board to be held at any angle and also provides stability.
    Last edited by Mike1902; 03-07-2021 at 03:40 AM.

  33. #313
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    Default Re: The believed abstraction of a 12 foot clinker dinghy.

    Quote Originally Posted by Drift Boat Rick View Post
    Masterful construction!

    Drift Boat Rick
    Cheers Rick.

  34. #314
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    Default Re: The believed abstraction of a 12 foot clinker dinghy.

    The dagger board has now been glassed.

    IMG-4250.jpgIMG-4260.jpg

    I managed to glass both sides at once thereby avoiding any lapped joins and extra fairing work.

    IMG-4270.jpgIMG-4281.jpg

    The weave was then filled with a 50/50 mix by volume of epoxy and 410 fairing filler.
    The excess cloth along the trailing edge was trimmed with a knife while the epoxy was in a green state.
    The filler was then longboarded to a smooth and regular surface.

    IMG-4292.jpg

    A wipe down with a damp cloth gives the surface a sheen and with the light in the right place this will show up any discrepancies in that surface.
    One more coat of epoxy will be applied and I'm thinking about putting graphite into the mix.

    The next job is to put a carbon fiber boot onto the foot of the board.
    Current weight of the board is 4.1 kgs (9 lbs).

  35. #315
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    Default Re: The believed abstraction of a 12 foot clinker dinghy.

    Totally masterly, Mike.
    Cheers,
    Ian
    Old Joke: ‘A bench fitter works to the nearest thousandth of an inch. A loco fitter (steam) works to the nearest inch. A shipwright works to the nearest ship’.”
    Alan Byde, Canoe Design and Construction, Pelham Books, 1978

    “...old maxim, 'A fair line supersedes any given measurement'.”
    Allan H. Vaitses, Lofting, International Marine, 1980

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