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Thread: Venezuelan Economy

  1. #1
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    Default Venezuelan Economy

    Fact check: Socialist policies alone did not destroy Venezuela's economy in last decade


    https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/...my/3323566001/

    Just a reminder that 'socialism' is not the enemy. It's a 'boogeyman' words used to scare the masses. I'm pretty sure I've seen this same 'socialism ruined everything claim right here in the Bilge. Fact is - Venezuela under several leaders put all their eggs into one lucrative but very volatile basket (milking their huge oil reserves). Bad planning - but not much to do with socialism.
    David G
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    Default Re: Venezuelan Economy

    My sense is that it is not so much the 'system', capitalism, socialism, what everism, as the lack of corruption. Governments of all stripes seem to take pretty good care of their citizens, unless they are corrupt. If they are corrupt, the people suffer.

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    Default Re: Venezuelan Economy

    Quote Originally Posted by David W Pratt View Post
    My sense is that it is not so much the 'system', capitalism, socialism, what everism, as the lack of corruption. Governments of all stripes seem to take pretty good care of their citizens, unless they are corrupt. If they are corrupt, the people suffer.
    Pure socialism has never been achieved, but evidence doesn't support the idea that it would be workable.

    Pure capitalism likewise. We've currently swung a good bit (about as far as we've ever gone) toward it... and it's proving disastrous.

    http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...Read-Tightrope
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    Default Re: Venezuelan Economy



    If this chart could be accurately drawn back to 1811 it would be very interesting. Corruption is a way of life.

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    Default Re: Venezuelan Economy

    It's a petrostate that didn't invest in anything else and was/is extremely corrupt. It's is a kleptocracy/oligarchy.

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    Default Re: Venezuelan Economy

    Actually, it's the legacy of the Spanish Empire. (Equally true for most of Latin America).

    https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sour...d8J1617TDcxc_y

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    Default Re: Venezuelan Economy

    It did not even invest in its petroleum industry. It depended on technicians and technology from elsewhere.
    They never seemed to learn how to find, access, or refine their oil

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    Default Re: Venezuelan Economy

    Quote Originally Posted by David W Pratt View Post
    It did not even invest in its petroleum industry. It depended on technicians and technology from elsewhere.
    They never seemed to learn how to find, access, or refine their oil
    Did you ever read 'Confessions Of An Economic Hitman'? Seems to have followed that model...
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    Default Re: Venezuelan Economy

    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Wright View Post
    Actually, it's the legacy of the Spanish Empire. (Equally true for most of Latin America).
    Varies wildly - although the places that were backwaters of the Spanish Empire seem to do better. Chile and Uruguay and Costa Rica do pretty well.
    "For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations,
    for nature cannot be fooled."

    Richard Feynman

  10. #10
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    Default Re: Venezuelan Economy

    And there's another factor that plays in, which is esp. relevant since we're talking about Latin America.

    It's true that socialism has never proven out in practice. And - while I'm skeptical that it ever would - it must be noted that it's never been given, afik, a decent opportunity. Every instance of potential success in modern times has resulted in capitalist - esp. U.S. - tampering. For more, see. 'Confessions of an Economic Hitman'. If the same sorts of resources and ingenuity had been invested in helping such economies succeed... maybe we'd see some thriving socialist economies.
    David G
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    Default Re: Venezuelan Economy

    Here is a short summary: Venezula had a lot of oil. Did this wealth get distributed enough to have a large middle class? no. Were things perfect? no, far from it. Was the political system stable? no. Then comes Chavez: and he successfully destroys everything that was working and stops cold everything that was progressing.

    So did socialism alone destroy the economy? What existed of the economy, yes, it did.

    Even reading the article in the OP does not contradict this. Its a misleading OP.

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    Default Re: Venezuelan Economy

    I took this photo in Havana. Those in power will lie, cover up, and do just about anything to preserve flawed, theoretically "good"systems.

    100_0181.jpg

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    Default Re: Venezuelan Economy

    Quote Originally Posted by peb View Post
    Here is a short summary: Venezula had a lot of oil. Did this wealth get distributed enough to have a large middle class? no. Were things perfect? no, far from it. Was the political system stable? no. Then comes Chavez: and he successfully destroys everything that was working and stops cold everything that was progressing.

    So did socialism alone destroy the economy? What existed of the economy, yes, it did.

    Even reading the article in the OP does not contradict this. Its a misleading OP.
    You state it like it’s an axiom when it’s a political talking point for right wing US politics. “socialism” in the abstract didn’t destroy Venezuela’s economy anymore than capitalism destroyed US leadership in the world.

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    Default Re: Venezuelan Economy

    Quote Originally Posted by LeeG View Post
    You state it like it’s an axiom when it’s a political talking point for right wing US politics. “socialism” in the abstract didn’t destroy Venezuela’s economy anymore than capitalism destroyed US leadership in the world.
    Ok, so now we are going to get to an abstract definition of socialism? I used the term socialism for one reasn, and one reason only, it was used in the OP by David. If you prefer: Partido Socialista Unido de Venezuela destoyed what existed of Venezuela's economy. Happier?

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    Default Re: Venezuelan Economy

    Very true. There has been no real socialist state. Just a word used to justify yet another dictatorship. Cuba might have looked good for a bit, but ended up enriching the top people and empoverishing the general population. BUT, all good because it is a true communist state...Every student's hero, Ché, went from being a nice bloke biking about, to a fervent revolutionary signing death warrants for people who didn't like the way the 'Revolution' was going. Seems there was a bit of a queue to knock him off.

    From my experience in living in communist Portugal. As soon as they gave the people a chance to vote (in a straight election) they booted the communists out, as they had enough time to see that their ideas were not working, except for the local communist organisers, who did well..
    Most people in so called socialist states don't get a free vote.

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    Default Re: Venezuelan Economy

    Quote Originally Posted by peb View Post
    Ok, so now we are going to get to an abstract definition of socialism? I used the term socialism for one reasn, and one reason only, it was used in the OP by David. If you prefer: Partido Socialista Unido de Venezuela destoyed what existed of Venezuela's economy. Happier?
    I’m not unhappy peb and no we aren’t defining the term. What is happening in Venezuela is a shame but it has absolutely no connection to US politics except as a dumbass association game like Iraq/Al Qaeda/WMD to motivate people. “Oh look American politicians want to institute Socialism. Look at Venezuela!!” It’s stupid and it works.

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    Default Re: Venezuelan Economy

    Quote Originally Posted by peb View Post
    Here is a short summary: Venezula had a lot of oil. Did this wealth get distributed enough to have a large middle class? no. Were things perfect? no, far from it. Was the political system stable? no. Then comes Chavez: and he successfully destroys everything that was working and stops cold everything that was progressing.

    So did socialism alone destroy the economy? What existed of the economy, yes, it did.

    Even reading the article in the OP does not contradict this. Its a misleading OP.
    Sorry... not a summary. Just an over-simplified, inaccurate, apologia.
    David G
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    Default Re: Venezuelan Economy

    Quote Originally Posted by David G View Post
    Sorry... not a summary. Just an over-simplified, inaccurate, apologia.
    Perhaps over-simplified. But not inaccurate, indeed it does not contradict you OP link, except that the conclusion is different.

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    Default Re: Venezuelan Economy

    Quote Originally Posted by peb View Post
    Perhaps over-simplified. But not inaccurate, indeed it does not contradict you OP link, except that the conclusion is different.
    Here' where you went wrong. I've already explained how --

    So did socialism alone destroy the economy? What existed of the economy, yes, it did.
    David G
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    Default Re: Venezuelan Economy

    Quote Originally Posted by LeeG View Post
    I’m not unhappy peb and no we aren’t defining the term. What is happening in Venezuela is a shame but it has absolutely no connection to US politics except as a dumbass association game like Iraq/Al Qaeda/WMD to motivate people. “Oh look American politicians want to institute Socialism. Look at Venezuela!!” It’s stupid and it works.
    I just mean "happy with my wording?", not if you were happy or not in general, but good to know you are a happy person. I have made no comment along those lines. Not one. So I am not for sure why you are on my case. But since you are.....

    There is one parallel between Chavez/Maduro regime and the current left of the democratic party. When Hugo Chavez came to power in 1998, Venezuela's oil production was 3 million barrels a day, 20 years later it is now around 800K (side note: this decline explains much of the question of the OP). That sounds like it is exactly inline with the goals of todays democratic party.

    Also, there is one other issue that is a bearing on the presidential election. What will be the US policy towards Venezuela?

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    Default Re: Venezuelan Economy

    Quote Originally Posted by peb View Post

    There is one parallel between Chavez/Maduro regime and the current left of the democratic party. When Hugo Chavez came to power in 1998, Venezuela's oil production was 3 million barrels a day, 20 years later it is now around 800K (side note: this decline explains much of the question of the OP). That sounds like it is exactly inline with the goals of todays democratic party.

    Also, there is one other issue that is a bearing on the presidential election. What will be the US policy towards Venezuela?
    Hopefully US policy towards Venezuela has a strong humanitarian component as opposed to a punishing one under Trump/Elliott Abrams. Your comment about “ todays Democratic Party” seeking a 350% decline in US oil production is nonsense. That’s like saying the present collapse in US oil production is Trump’s fault. It’s nonsense.

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    Default Re: Venezuelan Economy

    Quote Originally Posted by LeeG View Post
    Your comment about “ todays Democratic Party” seeking a 350% decline in US oil production is nonsense. That’s like saying the present collapse in US oil production is Trump’s fault. It’s nonsense.
    From the first bullet of https://www.gp.org/green_new_deal


    Create 20 million jobs by transitioning to 100% clean renewable energy by 2030, and investing in public transit, sustainable (regenerative) agriculture, conservation and restoration of critical infrastructure, including ecosystems.
    Now, one could argue that has to do with energy consumption, not production, so the supporters of this would let our oil production continue, we would just export it all. But of course that is not the case:

    End destructive energy extraction and associated infrastructure: fracking, tar sands, offshore drilling, oil trains, mountaintop removal, natural gas pipelines, and uranium mines.
    Which is what we expected.

    Now, one could argue that is not Biden's plan, and that would be correct, but plenty of democrats did sign on. As to Biden's plan:

    Ensure the U.S. achieves a 100% clean energy economy and reaches net-zero emissions no later than 2050.
    Which is 10 years longer than Venezuela took, but certainly if we meet this goal it will cut our oil production by 350%. Now, I am not saying this is a bad thing at all. If we can do this without raising our cost of energy drastically, then that would be great. Our economy does not rely completely on oil production like Venezuela's. It does rely on the fact that we are a low-cost energy economy in order to be competitive with the world.

    At any rate, certainly not non-sense. They are most definitely wanting to see that level of oil production decline. You have a long history on this forum of being interested in energy issues, I am surprised you do not know this.

  23. #23
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    Default Re: Venezuelan Economy

    Quote Originally Posted by LeeG View Post
    Hopefully US policy towards Venezuela has a strong humanitarian component as opposed to a punishing one under Trump/Elliott Abrams.
    Are you referring to the sanctions against Venezuela? I assume you are, they are fairly well targeted. As for recognizing the opposition government, instead of Maduro, we were in a lot of company on that issue, not for sure why you would say it is under Trump.

    I do agree there should be a humanitarian component. I agree we need to do more, though lets not imply we have done nothing.

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    Default Re: Venezuelan Economy

    Quote Originally Posted by peb View Post
    From the first bullet of https://www.gp.org/green_new_deal



    Now, one could argue that has to do with energy consumption, not production, so the supporters of this would let our oil production continue, we would just export it all. But of course that is not the case:


    Which is what we expected.

    Now, one could argue that is not Biden's plan, and that would be correct, but plenty of democrats did sign on. As to Biden's plan:


    Which is 10 years longer than Venezuela took, but certainly if we meet this goal it will cut our oil production by 350%. Now, I am not saying this is a bad thing at all. If we can do this without raising our cost of energy drastically, then that would be great. Our economy does not rely completely on oil production like Venezuela's. It does rely on the fact that we are a low-cost energy economy in order to be competitive with the world.

    At any rate, certainly not non-sense. They are most definitely wanting to see that level of oil production decline. You have a long history on this forum of being interested in energy issues, I am surprised you do not know this.
    Green Party = Democratic Party?

    I am not surprised in your misrepresentation just surprised how overt you are about it.

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    Default Re: Venezuelan Economy

    Quote Originally Posted by LeeG View Post
    Green Party = Democratic Party?

    I am not surprised in your misrepresentation just surprised how overt you are about it.
    I am not misrepresetning anything. The green new deal has been endorsed by many prominent democrats: AOC, Sanders, Ilhan Omar, Ed Markey, Pete Buttigied....

    You are simply in denial if you think the democrats do not want to cut oil/gas production drastically. Again, I do not know why you are so concerned that I am misrepresenting the democrat's position. I am not, but why the concern? Is it a bad position on the part of the dems?

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    Default Re: Venezuelan Economy

    Quote Originally Posted by peb View Post
    I am not misrepresetning anything. The green new deal has been endorsed by many prominent democrats: AOC, Sanders, Ilhan Omar, Ed Markey, Pete Buttigied....

    You are simply in denial if you think the democrats do not want to cut oil/gas production drastically. Again, I do not know why you are so concerned that I am misrepresenting the democrat's position. I am not, but why the concern? Is it a bad position on the part of the dems?
    Come on man, you presented a Democratic Party position via a few politicians endorsement of the Green Party's platform. That kind of sloppy thinking is exactly how anti abortionists equate a 8 wk fetus with a born baby or neocon propagandists equated Salafi jihadism with a Stalinist dictatorship in Iraq. It’s blatant and dumb. You aren’t dumb so just stop it.

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    Default Re: Venezuelan Economy

    Not true about socialism not working. Many hunting-gathering peoples have practiced a socialism that works, for eons.

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    Default Re: Venezuelan Economy

    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Hadfield View Post
    Not true about socialism not working. Many hunting-gathering peoples have practiced a socialism that works, for eons.
    True. Quite true. But I think the question is about a modern industrialized economy, on a national level.

    I'll offer another example of a larger operation, but not quite socialism on that level. And not 'pure' socialism. Just a whole region with tons of worker-owned & worker-managed operations. Mondragon, in the Basque region of N. Italy. Started by a Catholic priest back in the 50's. Last time I looked they had 75,000+ owner/managers in something like 250 - 300 firms. They are quite the success story.
    Last edited by David G; 08-12-2020 at 06:54 PM.
    David G
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    Default Re: Venezuelan Economy

    I don't think orivare co-operatives qualify as socialism. They are a great thing, largely ushered in by Leo XIII in many Catholic areas. Hint: same Leo who denounced socialism.

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    Default Re: Venezuelan Economy

    Quote Originally Posted by peb View Post
    I don't think orivare co-operatives qualify as socialism. They are a great thing, largely ushered in by Leo XIII in many Catholic areas. Hint: same Leo who denounced socialism.
    And here I though I took pains to point out that cooperatives are not pure socialism.

    But it is true that socialists smile on cooperatives. In the same way that theoretical Marxists smile on Socialists. My family, for instance, was involved in the cooperative plywood mill movement on the West Coast. Which was promoted and executed by Scandanavian Socialist organizers who traveled from town to town setting them up.
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