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Thread: Upon Deep and Considered Reflection

  1. #36
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    Default Re: Upon Deep and Considered Reflection

    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Montgomery View Post
    .
    Why do I think Trump was elected? Because he got the majority of the electors of the Electoral College.
    Which is what counts. My question was, why did he get that majority?

    Now tell us... over the last 28 years and 7 presidential elections how many times has the Republican presidential candidate won the majority of the popular vote?
    Why not go back 48 years, or 96, or more? Majority of the popular vote isn't the sole criterion. You know that; do you wish it otherwise? And if you do, why?

  2. #37
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    Default Re: Upon Deep and Considered Reflection

    .
    I chose the last quarter of a century because recent trends look bad for the Republican Party.

    To answer your question... Trump won the majority of electors because the Electoral College awards voters in less populous states more voting power than voters in more populous states.

    By the way... the electoral college map at the moment looks dire for your Mango Hero.
    "We have come to live in a society based on insults, on lies and on things that just aren't true. It creates an environment where deranged people feel empowered." -- Colin Powell, 10/30/18

  3. #38
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    Default Re: Upon Deep and Considered Reflection

    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Montgomery View Post
    .
    ...
    To answer your question... Trump won the majority of electors because the Electoral College awards voters in less populous states more voting power than voters in more populous states.
    Alas, that doesn't answer either of my questions. You simply played back an automatic talking point against the EC. I asked you why he won those states, not how the election was affected by the perceived disparities in apportionment.

  4. #39
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    Default Re: Upon Deep and Considered Reflection

    .
    He won because a large minority of the American voting public is made up of deplorables.

    Happy now?
    "We have come to live in a society based on insults, on lies and on things that just aren't true. It creates an environment where deranged people feel empowered." -- Colin Powell, 10/30/18

  5. #40
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    Default Re: Upon Deep and Considered Reflection

    Quote Originally Posted by kgr1 View Post
    Majority of the popular vote isn't the [sole] criterion. You know that; do you wish it otherwise? And if you do, why?
    You avoided this question, Tom. Why?

  6. #41
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    Default Re: Upon Deep and Considered Reflection

    .
    Yes, I wish it were otherwise. Why? Because it ain't 1781 any longer. The United States of America has changed greatly in 239 years. The U.S. Constitution has not changed along with it.

    This was a situation the founders did not foresee. The founders imagined periodic constitutional conventions would be convened to adapt the U.S. Constitution to a changing population and evolving society. Little did they imagine their descendants being so timid.
    "We have come to live in a society based on insults, on lies and on things that just aren't true. It creates an environment where deranged people feel empowered." -- Colin Powell, 10/30/18

  7. #42
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    Default Re: Upon Deep and Considered Reflection

    Quote Originally Posted by Rob Hazard View Post
    I don't see how increasing the current polarization can possibly help, given how evenly the sides are balanced. Punishing our political leaders as soon as they are out of power is not a good road to follow. I'd be content to see Mr Trump out of power. Let him brood in his dark tower on 5th Ave, or let him play solo golf until he can no longer climb out of his cart. Just get him out of the White House.
    One of the reasons we are where we are, IMO, is that G.W. suffered no consequences for lying us into Iraq, legalizing torture, and detaining people without charge or trial.

    As to consequences for Trump and his family, my wish would be all their assets are seized and they need food stamps to survive in low income housing.
    How do we form a mutiny? Our new captain is navigating poorly.

  8. #43
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    Default Re: Upon Deep and Considered Reflection

    Quote Originally Posted by kgr1 View Post
    Alas, that doesn't answer either of my questions. You simply played back an automatic talking point against the EC. I asked you why he won those states, not how the election was affected by the perceived disparities in apportionment.
    People in those states watch FOX And they fed info from Sinclair.
    How do we form a mutiny? Our new captain is navigating poorly.

  9. #44
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    Default Re: Upon Deep and Considered Reflection

    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Montgomery View Post
    .
    Yes, I wish it were otherwise. Why? Because it ain't 1781 any longer. The United States of America has changed greatly in 239 years. The U.S. Constitution has not changed along with it.

    This was a situation the founders did not foresee. The founders imagined periodic constitutional conventions would be convened to adapt the U.S. Constitution to a changing population and evolving society. Little did they imagine their descendants being so timid.
    I missed the little jewel above.

    I don't think the Constitution was even a twinkle in the Founders' eyes in 1781.

  10. #45
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    Default Re: Upon Deep and Considered Reflection

    .
    My mistake. Of course the U.S. Constitution was ratified in 1788. My point remains.
    "We have come to live in a society based on insults, on lies and on things that just aren't true. It creates an environment where deranged people feel empowered." -- Colin Powell, 10/30/18

  11. #46
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    Default Re: Upon Deep and Considered Reflection

    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Montgomery View Post
    .
    My mistake. Of course the U.S. Constitution was ratified in 1788. My point remains.
    No... you don't understand the RWW mode of conversation. In their world... if you bring up some pointless quibble... it absolves you from having to engage in fact-based debate. Staying on topic is, you see, for pointy-headed librul intellectuals.
    David G
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  12. #47
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    Default Re: Upon Deep and Considered Reflection

    Quote Originally Posted by David G View Post
    Thanks. But 'Chautauqua'??
    Iím notsure if you are asking me what Chautauqua means in the context I used it or whether what you said could be termed such? I was meaning something along these lines: http://www.nyx.net/~kbanker/chautauqua/phil.html

  13. #48
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    Default Re: Upon Deep and Considered Reflection

    Quote Originally Posted by Adrian Valley View Post
    I’m notsure if you are asking me what Chautauqua means in the context I used it or whether what you said could be termed such? I was meaning something along these lines: http://www.nyx.net/~kbanker/chautauqua/phil.html
    Sorry. The latter.

    I'd love for the Bilge to be like Chautauqua. But every time a collegial discussion gets started up, someone comes along to throw some flavor of cowflop on the fire. <sigh>
    David G
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    "It was a Sunday morning and Goddard gave thanks that there were still places where one could worship in temples not made by human hands." -- L. F. Herreshoff (The Compleat Cruiser)

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    Default Re: Upon Deep and Considered Reflection

    #34

    You suggesting the Electoral College is designed to ensure minority rule?
    It's all fun and games until Darth Vader comes.

  15. #50
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    Default Re: Upon Deep and Considered Reflection

    Quote Originally Posted by gypsie View Post
    #34

    You suggesting the Electoral College is designed to ensure minority rule?
    I have no idea WHAT his is suggesting. But what he's DOING is misrepresenting the motive for a bicameral legislature structured as it is... as being the sole motive for the electoral college. Creating a buffer from pure democracy WAS part of the reason. But only part. We've talked some already about the other part. But he doesn't want to think about that. It gives a Cognitive Dissonance a tummyache.
    David G
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    "It was a Sunday morning and Goddard gave thanks that there were still places where one could worship in temples not made by human hands." -- L. F. Herreshoff (The Compleat Cruiser)

  16. #51
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    Default Re: Upon Deep and Considered Reflection

    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Montgomery View Post
    This was a situation the founders did not foresee. The founders imagined periodic constitutional conventions would be convened to adapt the U.S. Constitution to a changing population and evolving society. Little did they imagine their descendants being so timid.
    Yes, they did. They provided for impeachment and removal. How could they have provided for a nation too timid to impeach and remove?

    America is for people determined to preserve self-government and human rights. The rest are dead weight at best.

    There's only so much that can be done, which they knew very well, from the abundant cowardice shown in the war of independence.
    Had every Athenian citizen been a Socrates, every Athenian assembly would still have been a mob.

    -- James Madison, Federalist 55

  17. #52
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    Default Re: Upon Deep and Considered Reflection

    Don't count your chickens…………… that way leads to complacency and lowers the vote numbers.

    On the subject of consequences. I'd like to see him pay too, but remember he was elected by about half the population…..give or take a few dodgy college electors. I think he shoud pay big time for his self-serving attitudes to Covid. But if the country is to be patched up politically then the protocols will have to be observed. Of course then you are in the cleft stick of the far right having their figurehead supported by the very state he sought to subvert.
    But as I said, don't count your chickens.

  18. #53
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    Default Re: Upon Deep and Considered Reflection

    Quote Originally Posted by skuthorp View Post
    Don't count your chickens…………… that way leads to complacency and lowers the vote numbers.

    On the subject of consequences. I'd like to see him pay too, but remember he was elected by about half the population…..give or take a few dodgy college electors. I think he shoud pay big time for his self-serving attitudes to Covid. But if the country is to be patched up politically then the protocols will have to be observed. Of course then you are in the cleft stick of the far right having their figurehead supported by the very state he sought to subvert.
    But as I said, don't count your chickens.
    If the country is to be patched up politically, it is going to have to be made clear that treason is treason and we don't play that spit.

    I find your cynicism [REDACTED]

    Republicans are criminals.

    I don't give a rippin' ratfreak if 90% of people voted for that criminal bursted. He is a clear and present danger and an existential threat to the Constitution.

    Nixon committed treason, and he was pardoned 'for the good of the country'.

    This merely emboldened the Seditious Right and now, nigh on to fifty years later, they wear their treason as a badge of honor.

    If the Constitution is to survive, this cabal must be crushed into paste, desiccated into powder, and incinerated.

    There are probably close to a thousand Republican operatives who need to die in jail.

    If we can not defend the Constitution from these thugs, we don't deserve to have it.

    They. Must. Be. Crushed. Into. Paste.

  19. #54
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    Default Re: Upon Deep and Considered Reflection

    Quote Originally Posted by oznabrag View Post
    If this country is going to take itself seriously, we must spare the life of this traitor.
    I've never been one for the death penalty, always thinking that our side of politics should rise above the normative evil that is capital punishment. But I've always thought that the one exception to this steadfast rule of mine is reserved for those that commit the worst kinds of crimes against humanity including mass-murder.

    Remember that thread I posted with 50,000 crosses?... It should have been updated and now be more than treble that number.

    He has no remorse, like any of the worst mass murderers in history. He doesn't deserve any kind life. His adult children and his appalling wife, and all of his inner circle of enablers should be sent away to Gitmo until they draw their last.
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  20. #55
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    Default Re: Upon Deep and Considered Reflection

    Quote Originally Posted by gypsie View Post
    #34

    You suggesting the Electoral College is designed to ensure minority rule?
    Now where did that silly comment come from?

    Here are links to two articles: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United...ctoral_College and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electoral_college

    It's probably more that you want to know about the Electoral College.


    David, you have a fascinating mind, even if it occasionally tends to the delusional:
    Quote Originally Posted by David G View Post
    I have no idea WHAT his [sic] is suggesting. But what he's DOING is misrepresenting the motive for a bicameral legislature structured as it is... as being the sole motive for the electoral college.
    Kindly show where I said or implied anything of the sort. Your usual dishonesty in debate (if what we're engaging in can be described as such) is on open display here.

    Creating a buffer from pure democracy WAS part of the reason. But only part. We've talked some already about the other part.
    Really? When and where? Was this another debate that took place inside your head?

    But he doesn't want to think about that. It gives a Cognitive Dissonance a tummyache.
    Judging by the tenor of your comments, I believe you've been having a dialogue of one.

  21. #56
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    Default Re: Upon Deep and Considered Reflection

    I believe we may have a Sky Blue wannabe.

    Ugh.

  22. #57
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    Default Re: Upon Deep and Considered Reflection

    Ozna, #53

    "I find your cynicism [REDACTED]"

    I am known a world class cynic here ozna, I prefer to class myself as a realist.


    And that 'college' again.
    Seems to me it was inserted to make sure that democracy could not work and only the "right' people could be elected.
    That worked out well didn't it? There's been a few of presidents that never should have been and were little better than crooks, and now donald……...
    Last edited by skuthorp; 08-10-2020 at 04:52 AM.

  23. #58
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    Default Re: Upon Deep and Considered Reflection

    Quote Originally Posted by oznabrag
    I believe we may have a Sky Blue wannabe.

    Ugh.
    Right-wingnut, cocky, dripping with insulting superiority & condescending?

    Check, check, check & check.
    "We have come to live in a society based on insults, on lies and on things that just aren't true. It creates an environment where deranged people feel empowered." -- Colin Powell, 10/30/18

  24. #59
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    Default Re: Upon Deep and Considered Reflection

    Quote Originally Posted by skuthorp View Post
    Ozna, #53

    "I find your cynicism [REDACTED]"

    I am known a world class cynic here ozna, I prefer to class myself as a realist.


    And that 'college' again.
    Seems to me it was inserted to make sure that democracy could not work and only the "right' people could be elected.
    That worked out well didn't it? There's been a few of presidents that never should have been and were little better than crooks, and now donald……...
    A certain amount of cynicism is healthy and useful. Too much... not so much. The cynic isn't in a good position where she stands. If you get enough feedback in that direction, maybe ask your mental health professional if you've reached 'seek help' territory.
    David G
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    "It was a Sunday morning and Goddard gave thanks that there were still places where one could worship in temples not made by human hands." -- L. F. Herreshoff (The Compleat Cruiser)

  25. #60
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    Default Re: Upon Deep and Considered Reflection

    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Montgomery View Post
    Right-wingnut, unwarranted cockiness, dripping with insulting but false superiority & condescending as only the ignorant can be?

    Check, check, check & check.
    ftfy...
    David G
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    "It was a Sunday morning and Goddard gave thanks that there were still places where one could worship in temples not made by human hands." -- L. F. Herreshoff (The Compleat Cruiser)

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