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Thread: Voting by mail

  1. #1
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    Default Voting by mail

    So, I see that the NY 12th congressional district primary election dinner was certified this week, election on June 23rd.

    Apparently it was a complete fiasco, ballots not post marked, not enough election workers, undefined procedures for validating ballots, etc. The election was June 23rd, over 6 weeks later we have a winner.

    The other day I started a thread about problems we are likely to face this November. I posted an article from the Atlantic detailing the issues. Looks like everyone if those issues is a concern based on NY's experience.

    I not opposed to mail in balloting. Schools had 3 or months to prepare for this fall and many have not prepared for in-person or remote classes. Why do we think election officials will do better?

    Lots of people with their heads in the sand.

    Note: I completely in favor of mailing voting thus November, I just think it will be a huge failure.

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    Default Re: Voting by mail

    Quote Originally Posted by peb View Post
    So, I see that the NY 12th congressional district primary election dinner was certified this week, election on June 23rd.

    Apparently it was a complete fiasco, ballots not post marked, not enough election workers, undefined procedures for validating ballots, etc. The election was June 23rd, over 6 weeks later we have a winner.

    The other day I started a thread about problems we are likely to face this November. I posted an article from the Atlantic detailing the issues. Looks like everyone if those issues is a concern based on NY's experience.

    I not opposed to mail in balloting. Schools had 3 or months to prepare for this fall and many have not prepared for in-person or remote classes. Why do we think election officials will do better?

    Lots of people with their heads in the sand.

    Note: I completely in favor of mailing voting thus November, I just think it will be a huge failure.
    You could be right.

    But if it is... it's unforgivable. Because there are several states who have been doing this with few or no hiccups for decades. All you have to do is cut and paste. Sure there would be a few bobbles. That's inevitable... but not the sort of issues you're describing.
    David G
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    Default Re: Voting by mail

    Quote Originally Posted by peb
    Note: I completely in favor of mailing voting thus November, I just think it will be a huge failure.
    Particularly with the Trump administration undermining the U.S. Postal Service.
    "We have come to live in a society based on insults, on lies and on things that just aren't true. It creates an environment where deranged people feel empowered." -- Colin Powell, 10/30/18

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    Default Re: Voting by mail

    Well, NY didn't get it right. And I am skeptical if any state has done this on the scale that will occur in November.

    I hope I am wrong.

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    Default Re: Voting by mail

    Does not each state's electors vote on Dec 14th? And that date can't change?

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    Default Re: Voting by mail

    .
    I am moving to Ohio at the end of September and will immediately register to vote and request an absentee ballot. Every registered voter in Ohio may vote by absentee ballot in every election if they so desire. I do not intend to ever again vote in person. Viva enlightened state government!
    "We have come to live in a society based on insults, on lies and on things that just aren't true. It creates an environment where deranged people feel empowered." -- Colin Powell, 10/30/18

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    Default Re: Voting by mail

    Quote Originally Posted by peb View Post
    Well, NY didn't get it right. And I am skeptical if any state has done this on the scale that will occur in November.

    I hope I am wrong.
    NY is an example of how to do it wrong. Utah is an example of how to do it right.

    trying to paint NY as the norm rather than an outlier is a bit cynical and disingenuous I think. An effective secure vote by mail system requires a fully funded post office and fund’s provided to the states to set it up. This particular White House has been actively working against both those things.
    __________________________________________________ ________________________

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    Default Re: Voting by mail

    .
    DONALD TRUMP HAS NOT CRITICIZED Ohio Governor Mike DeWine (R) and Ohio Secretary of State Frank LaRose (R) for their plan to send 7.5 million absentee ballot request forms to every registered voter ahead of the November election. Three guesses why.

    Is mail-in voting safe? Yes, and Ohio's system is among the best in the country, LaRose says

    Ohio's secretary of state held a virtual town hall and answered absentee voting questions, what will happen on Election Day and more.


    Author: WTOL Newsroom
    Published: 2:42 PM EDT August 4, 2020
    Updated: 4:20 PM EDT August 4, 2020

    COLUMBUS, Ohio — When it comes to November's election, Ohioans have three choices for getting their ballots in, and "all of them are good choices," according to Ohio Secretary of State Frank LaRose.

    As long as Ohioans are registered voters - the deadline this year is Oct. 5 - you may choose among early voting, mail-in/absentee ballots, or in-person voting.

    Ohio has permitted four weeks of in-person early voting for quite some time. This year, early voting starts Oct. 6.

    Ohioans can early vote for four weeks - including evenings and weekends. Ohio is one of only five states that has Sunday voting during the early vote period and one of only 20 states that has Saturday voting available.

    Ohio has four weeks of voting by mail, also known as absentee voting. For nearly 20 years, Ohio has had this option, and LaRose said about 25% of Ohioans tend to exercise this option in most elections.

    "We know that that number is going to even higher this year," he said during a virtual town hall on Monday.

    The secretary of state's office is sending out 7.8 million absentee ballot request forms to every voter in the state, following years of precedent, LaRose said. These will be mailed around Labor Day weekend.

    The secretary also mentioned that Ohio is a model for such voting, noting the nonpartisan Brookings Institution recently rated Ohio as one of the top states in the nation for its absentee voting process.

    We also have "safe and secure in-person Election Day voting," LaRose said. "This to me has to be one of the options available to Ohioans."

    In the spring, the state Legislature opted to have an all vote-by-mail primary because of the rise and spread of COVID-19, and LaRose said he hopes that is the only time that ever happens.

    LaRose said 35,000 people need to work as poll workers in order for the in-person option to work. With the pandemic this year, traditionally older poll workers are opting out of working the polling location due to health concerns.

    LaRose is calling upon a "new generation" of poll workers to take up the flag and keep the engine of democracy humming. There are several practices his office is putting into place to help ensure this happens.

    1. Ohio Supreme Court has granted permission for lawyers to receive CLE credits if they sign up to be a poll worker.

    2. Youth at the Booth lets 17-year-olds sign up to be poll workers.

    3. Companies are being encouraged to participate in Give a Day for Democracy to give their workers a paid day off to be a poll worker.

    4. Work a Day, Donate Your Pay encourages charities and nonprofit groups to partner with boards of elections and lets poll workers' salaries be donated back to the groups.

    If you're interested in signing up to be a poll worker, which is a paid position, you can visit voteohio.gov/defenddemocracy

    How to register to vote?
    You can register online at voteohio.gov. Have your driver's license or state-issued ID available to expedite the process. You must register by Oct. 5 in order to be able to vote in the Nov. 3 General Election.

    Keeping people and their votes safe
    Guidelines will be coming soon from the SOS in collaboration with the Ohio Department of Health and the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention to each of the 88 county boards of election as far as what precautions in-person polling locations must take to keep voters safe during the pandemic. LaRose pointed to the ingenuity of Ohio businesses such as grocery stores for the steps they've taken to protect customers and workers, noting he expects such inventiveness will be seen at the polls as well.

    LaRose also said the office is focused on vote security and cybersecurity in order for Ohioans to trust that their elections are accurate. He said Ohio ranks at the top of the heap when it comes to cybersecurity but it is still something that his office pays a lot of attention to.

    Voting machines are tested before their use and they are not connected to the internet, LaRose said, and a full audit is conducted after the election to make sure things came out in an "honest and forthright way," LaRose said.

    Lawsuits filed
    LaRose derided the Ohio Democratic Party's lawsuit that calls for absentee ballot requests to be made available via email, saying email is antiquated and creates a security vulnerability with the attachments that be emailed in. LaRose instead said he wants to see a secure online portal be made available where people could request an absentee ballot, rather than via email.

    LaRose also knocked another lawsuit on the verification of signatures, saying that signature verification is needed as a security standard and a way to ensure a voter is who they say they are. He noted there is due process with this signature verification process currently, in that if a board of election thinks a signature on a ballot does not match up with one on the voter registry, it will contact the voter to rectify the situation.

    "There's no good reason not to be a voter in Ohio," LaRose said. "People have risked their lives in combat zones to cast a ballot. ... Nobody should sit it out."

    TOWN HALL QUESTIONS - Have your own questions? Text us at 419-248-1100 and we'll work to get them answered

    Is absentee balloting secure, is it trustworthy?
    "I know the president has raised concerns on this. The president has to be focused on all 50 states. We're just focused on Ohio. So while the president raises concerns that may be valid in other states, especially states that are just now figuring out how to do absentee voting, remember that Ohio's been doing this for 20 years. We're pretty good at it," LaRose said.

    "Here in Ohio, there are four reasons why you know your ballot is secure and this is a trustworthy system:

    1. We remove deceased voters from the voter rolls and we maintain accurate voter lists. I apologize to no one for maintaining the accuracy of our voter rolls," LaRose said.

    2. You have to authenticate who you are before you even request your ballot. That includes your full name, date of birth, last 4 of Social Security number, and driver's license/state ID

    3. Your signature on your cast ballot has to match the signature on your voter registration.

    4. You can track your ballot in Ohio, just like tracking a package, on voteohio.gov."

    Isn't sending absentee ballot request forms a waste of taxpayer money?
    "Ohioans have grown accustomed to this (sending out absentee ballot request forms). This is something we have done in even number elections back to 2012. ... Here's another reason why it's crucial - we expect turnout in the 2020 election to be the highest we've seen, bar-none. What that means is that for us to have that safe and secure experience on Election Day, we need to have a lot of Ohioans take advantage of early voting and vote by mail. Of course, it's a safe option for those who are concerned about leaving their house (due to COVID-19). ... Voting by mail is a secure process in Ohio. Sending out the request form is a very straightforward proposition.

    "By the way, we're doing it entirely with federal money. We're not spending a dime of state money. I was able to access federal CARES dollars that we're using for the entirety of that mailing and I believe it will serve Ohioans well."

    https://www.wtol.com/article/news/sp...9-9c3556b44733
    "We have come to live in a society based on insults, on lies and on things that just aren't true. It creates an environment where deranged people feel empowered." -- Colin Powell, 10/30/18

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    Default Re: Voting by mail

    Quote Originally Posted by peb View Post
    So, I see that the NY 12th congressional district primary election dinner was certified this week, election on June 23rd.

    Apparently it was a complete fiasco, ballots not post marked, not enough election workers, undefined procedures for validating ballots, etc. The election was June 23rd, over 6 weeks later we have a winner.

    The other day I started a thread about problems we are likely to face this November. I posted an article from the Atlantic detailing the issues. Looks like everyone if those issues is a concern based on NY's experience.

    I not opposed to mail in balloting. Schools had 3 or months to prepare for this fall and many have not prepared for in-person or remote classes. Why do we think election officials will do better?

    Lots of people with their heads in the sand.

    Note: I completely in favor of mailing voting thus November, I just think it will be a huge failure.
    We've had optional mail in voting here pretty much forever, no problems, and I don't understand what the problems are for the US, it works just fine in some states, so why cant others get it right?

    John Welsford
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    Default Re: Voting by mail

    Quote Originally Posted by john welsford View Post
    We've had optional mail in voting here pretty much forever, no problems, and I don't understand what the problems are for the US, it works just fine in some states, so why cant others get it right?

    John Welsford
    I'm guessing some of the problems are due to the hurried, ad hoc nature of the process right now. Oregon's system has worked very well from the start, but we had as much time as we wanted to take to get it set up correctly.

    Now... why the other states couldn't just model their system after one of the good ones... I don't fathom. 'Best practice' is NOT a new concept when it comes to systems...
    David G
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    "It was a Sunday morning and Goddard gave thanks that there were still places where one could worship in temples not made by human hands." -- L. F. Herreshoff (The Compleat Cruiser)

  11. #11
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    Default Re: Voting by mail

    Quote Originally Posted by CK 17 View Post
    NY is an example of how to do it wrong. Utah is an example of how to do it right.

    trying to paint NY as the norm rather than an outlier is a bit cynical and disingenuous I think. An effective secure vote by mail system requires a fully funded post office and fund’s provided to the states to set it up. This particular White House has been actively working against both those things.
    I have not been disingenuous it cynical, I have not painted NY as the norm, I have used them as an example of why I am concerned.

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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by David G View Post
    You could be right.

    But if it is... it's unforgivable. Because there are several states who have been doing this with few or no hiccups for decades. All you have to do is cut and paste. Sure there would be a few bobbles. That's inevitable... but not the sort of issues you're describing.

    Except that it took Oregon and Washington a while to get the system dialed in. And here in Washington, we had Oregon's experiences and system to use as guideposts.

    Trying to stand up a complex system in a few months and have it work flawlessly out of the gate is... unlikely.

    My beef with vote by mail is that (1) what miniscle amount of direct ballot fraud that does exist is almost all via mail-in and absentee ballots, (2) voting is a civic and social institution. That ritual of going to the precinct polling place on election matters.

    Those jurisdictions that have "consolidated" precincts polling places so that many precincts vote in the same location are largely to blame, in my opinion, for the long lines and delays. It should be required that every precinct's polling place be geographically located within the precincts of the precinct.

    So I believe that voting by mail should be exceptional rather than the norm.

    Prior to Washington's institution of vote-by-mail, we used optically scanned, human readable ballots. You just marked your choices with a black or dark blue pen. Took them to the ballot box and slide them in, face-up. The ballot boxes were computerized and air-gapped (no network connection). It scanned and tabulated the ballots as they were fed into the box.

    Lines? Seldom. And certainly never more than a wait of maybe 15 minutes.

    Precincts where there are long lines to vote and ballot shortages are precincts where somebody is trying to lower voter turnout via insufficient provisioning of equipment. They know how many registered voters are in the precinct. They know what the historic turnout rates are, and what the likely turnout is going to be. It's not like it's rocket science to figure out how many ballots and voting machines any given precinct will need.

    Anyway, after the polls closed, the boxes were collected and trucked to Election HQ, where they were jacked into the master 'puter and the tabulation read from the box.

    We had highly accurate, pretty definitive results within a few hours. The exceptions would be tight, tight races where the few mail-in/absentee ballots could actually tip the scales.

    Now, it takes us multiple days to get results.

    This is not an improvement. Especially since vote-by-mail hasn't really affected turnout in any significant way.

    But this year is an exceptional, due to the Plague That Lies Upon Our Land™️. And desperate times call for desperate measures. This year, thanks in no small part to the orange gibbon[1] in the White House, we really should be voting by mail.

    [1] My apologies to higher primates everywhere.
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    Default Re: Voting by mail

    Quote Originally Posted by john welsford View Post
    We've had optional mail in voting here pretty much forever, no problems, and I don't understand what the problems are for the US, it works just fine in some states, so why cant others get it right?

    John Welsford
    The problem is that *some people* want it to be a problem, that can be used to cast doubt on the result - or substantially affect the result even by making the process or it's implementation difficult.

    Pete
    I have seven trolls on ignore

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    Default Re: Voting by mail

    Mr. Carey... yeah, that's what I said in #10.
    David G
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    "It was a Sunday morning and Goddard gave thanks that there were still places where one could worship in temples not made by human hands." -- L. F. Herreshoff (The Compleat Cruiser)

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    Default Re: Voting by mail

    Quote Originally Posted by David G
    Now... why the other states couldn't just model their system after one of the good ones... I don't fathom. 'Best practice' is NOT a new concept when it comes to systems...
    Ummm.... Not everyone thinks making voting easy is a good thing. Think: GOP.

    Remember: Historically low voter turnout favors Republican candidates while high voter turnout favors Democratic candidates. And the easy availability of mail-in voting tends to result in higher registered voter participation.
    "We have come to live in a society based on insults, on lies and on things that just aren't true. It creates an environment where deranged people feel empowered." -- Colin Powell, 10/30/18

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    Default Re: Voting by mail

    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Montgomery View Post
    .
    I am moving to Ohio at the end of September and will immediately register to vote and request an absentee ballot. Every registered voter in Ohio may vote by absentee ballot in every election if they so desire. I do not intend to ever again vote in person. Viva enlightened state government!
    Whoa there, fella... don't you have to be a resident for at least 30 days before you can register to vote in the new state? Used to be that way back when, might be different now.
    I was born on a wooden boat that I built myself.

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    Default Re: Voting by mail

    ^
    First I need to acquire my Ohio's driver's license. For that I will need to produce:
    My vehicle's original title or memorandum of title
    My current out-of-state driver license
    Proof of my full legal name
    Proof of my Social Security number
    Proof of my Ohio residency (e.g., bank statement, utility bill or pay stub listing your Ohio address)
    Proof of my citizenship or legal presence (e.g., birth certificate, U.S. passport, or see list of other acceptable documents)

    I closed on the house in Ohio on July 31st. On that date all the utilities transferred to my account. So I will have utility bills for August come the day I actually move in on September 23rd. I was in the house July 31 thru August 5. I return tomorrow August 9 for the week. I will be in and out throughout the remainder of August and September until the move-in date of September 23.

    Next I register to vote. I can do that online. For that I need:
    My Ohio driver’s license number
    My Name
    My date of Birth
    My address
    My last four digits of your Social Security number

    The Ohio voter registration deadline for the November general election is October 5th.

    Easy peasy.
    .
    Last edited by Tom Montgomery; 08-08-2020 at 06:09 PM.
    "We have come to live in a society based on insults, on lies and on things that just aren't true. It creates an environment where deranged people feel empowered." -- Colin Powell, 10/30/18

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    Default Re: Voting by mail

    Quote Originally Posted by peb View Post
    Well, NY didn't get it right. And I am skeptical if any state has done this on the scale that will occur in November.

    I hope I am wrong.
    Counting ballots doesn't get harder when there are more of them, it just takes more people or more time.
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    Default Re: Voting by mail

    Quote Originally Posted by peb View Post
    I have not been disingenuous it cynical, I have not painted NY as the norm, I have used them as an example of why I am concerned.
    I'm concerned that voting machines can be hacked. I'm concerned there won't be enough of them.

    The problem, as I see it, is the question of whether a ballot must arrive by or be postmarked by Nov. 3. If the postmark gets it counted, there's no incentive to slow down the mail. If it must arrive, there is incentive to slow down the mail in some places.
    How do we form a mutiny? Our new captain is navigating poorly.

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    Default Re: Voting by mail

    I sent in my application today!


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    Default Re: Voting by mail

    Quote Originally Posted by Nicholas Carey View Post
    Except that it took Oregon and Washington a while to get the system dialed in. And here in Washington, we had Oregon's experiences and system to use as guideposts.

    Trying to stand up a complex system in a few months and have it work flawlessly out of the gate is... unlikely.

    My beef with vote by mail is that (1) what miniscle amount of direct ballot fraud that does exist is almost all via mail-in and absentee ballots, (2) voting is a civic and social institution. That ritual of going to the precinct polling place on election matters.

    Those jurisdictions that have "consolidated" precincts polling places so that many precincts vote in the same location are largely to blame, in my opinion, for the long lines and delays. It should be required that every precinct's polling place be geographically located within the precincts of the precinct.

    So I believe that voting by mail should be exceptional rather than the norm.

    Prior to Washington's institution of vote-by-mail, we used optically scanned, human readable ballots. You just marked your choices with a black or dark blue pen. Took them to the ballot box and slide them in, face-up. The ballot boxes were computerized and air-gapped (no network connection). It scanned and tabulated the ballots as they were fed into the box.

    Lines? Seldom. And certainly never more than a wait of maybe 15 minutes.

    Precincts where there are long lines to vote and ballot shortages are precincts where somebody is trying to lower voter turnout via insufficient provisioning of equipment. They know how many registered voters are in the precinct. They know what the historic turnout rates are, and what the likely turnout is going to be. It's not like it's rocket science to figure out how many ballots and voting machines any given precinct will need.

    Anyway, after the polls closed, the boxes were collected and trucked to Election HQ, where they were jacked into the master 'puter and the tabulation read from the box.

    We had highly accurate, pretty definitive results within a few hours. The exceptions would be tight, tight races where the few mail-in/absentee ballots could actually tip the scales.

    Now, it takes us multiple days to get results.

    This is not an improvement. Especially since vote-by-mail hasn't really affected turnout in any significant way.

    But this year is an exceptional, due to the Plague That Lies Upon Our Land™️. And desperate times call for desperate measures. This year, thanks in no small part to the orange gibbon[1] in the White House, we really should be voting by mail.

    [1] My apologies to higher primates everywhere.
    I agree with much of this. I especially think it's important for our democracy to have the ritual of all of us, on one day, going to vote. I have long thought it should be a national holiday.

    I do think voting by mail should be the exception and not the rule. Thus year, in general, is an exception.

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    Default Re: Voting by mail

    Quote Originally Posted by John Smith View Post
    I'm concerned that voting machines can be hacked. I'm concerned there won't be enough of them.

    The problem, as I see it, is the question of whether a ballot must arrive by or be postmarked by Nov. 3. If the postmark gets it counted, there's no incentive to slow down the mail. If it must arrive, there is incentive to slow down the mail in some places.
    Have we had a problem with voting machine shortages in the past?

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    Default Re: Voting by mail

    Quote Originally Posted by peb View Post
    I agree with much of this. I especially think it's important for our democracy to have the ritual of all of us, on one day, going to vote. I have long thought it should be a national holiday.

    I do think voting by mail should be the exception and not the rule. Thus year, in general, is an exception.
    I think the most important aspects are safety, security, and 'time'. There is NO excuse for hours long lines to vote.

    We also need non hackable machines. And enough of them for a given number of voters.

    When I was young, we had mechanical voting machines. They were large and, I suppose, a thing to store and move, but they couldn't be hacked.

    We need a paper trail. Mail in ballots give us one. the machines used where I am do not. I have to take it on faith that my vote was counted as cast.
    How do we form a mutiny? Our new captain is navigating poorly.

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    Default Re: Voting by mail

    Quote Originally Posted by peb View Post
    Have we had a problem with voting machine shortages in the past?
    Yes. Have you not seen the very long lines that some people have had to stand in? Do you think it's right for people to have to stand in line for hours to vote?

    Florida in 2000 was silly. Run those cards through the machines until you get the same number twice. It did show the need for a reliable paper trail. Did it not?
    How do we form a mutiny? Our new captain is navigating poorly.

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    Default Re: Voting by mail

    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Montgomery View Post
    Particularly with the Trump administration undermining the U.S. Postal Service.
    Exactly. A debacle will probably ensue with mailed ballots, but not because Americans haven't successfully voted by mail over and over. Various Republican operatives tell us that maximising mailed ballots has been a crucial tactic delivering Republican wins for decades.

    The coming November debacle is intended, and is exactly why Trumpjust replaced the Postmaster General, . And why that guy just fired 2 dozen Postal Service executives right when doing so could cripple preparations for the ballot challenge.

    It's intended to provide the bones of a narrative for FOX, OAN etc to swear that its proof of those awful Dems stealing the election.

    Never mind that Christmas mail volumes are almost certainly much larger than any ballot surge. This isn't even subtle enough to be dignified with the term "telegraphing." Trump is straight up telling us one of the ways he intends to cheat. Just like his folks and even Kanye are straight up telling us why Kanye and GOP operatives are working to get Kanye on the ballot as a false "3rd Party" candidate in some swing states. It apparently isn't corrupt if you don't even pretend that you're not cheating.
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  26. #26
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    Default Re: Voting by mail

    If ballots are counted if they are mailed by Nov. 3, there should not be a problem. Ballots mailed past a certain date are not counted. If, for some reason, there is no postmark, they should be assumed to be timely.

    Voting districts can have drop boxes

    Any problems will likely be deliberately caused.
    How do we form a mutiny? Our new captain is navigating poorly.

  27. #27
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    Default Re: Voting by mail

    Quote Originally Posted by peb View Post
    I agree with much of this. I especially think it's important for our democracy to have the ritual of all of us, on one day, going to vote. I have long thought it should be a national holiday.

    I do think voting by mail should be the exception and not the rule. Thus year, in general, is an exception.
    I do kind of miss the 'going to the neighborhood polling place' ritual. It was a time of community.

    OTOH - we've been voting by mail here for decades now. The primary opponents at the time were a couple of Far Right dingbats. And precisely NONE of their dire predictions have come true. No problems of consequence. Certainly no 'voter fraud'. It works so well that 80+% of us approve. Both R's & D's approve by a large majority.

    And boy is it easy. I can drop off my ballot at MY convenience. I can take it to any number of drop-off points. Since I'm at the library often... I drop mine there. Participation rates are up.

    So... 'especially important... to have the ritual'?? I'd say it's especially important to have a secure system that is easy, promotes participation, and gets rave reviews. I'll give up the ritual, and find my community in other, perhaps more profound, ways.

    https://www.brookings.edu/blog/fixgo...igh-the-risks/

    https://thehill.com/homenews/state-w...-voting-record
    David G
    Harbor Woodworks
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    "It was a Sunday morning and Goddard gave thanks that there were still places where one could worship in temples not made by human hands." -- L. F. Herreshoff (The Compleat Cruiser)

  28. #28
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    Default Re: Voting by mail

    Quote Originally Posted by David G View Post
    I do kind of miss the 'going to the neighborhood polling place' ritual. It was a time of community.
    Being able to participate in the ritual requires a certain level of privilege. Even with a "national holiday" there will always be those who have to go to work or are otherwise occupied.
    Steve

    If you would have a good boat, be a good guy when you build her - honest, careful, patient, strong.
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  29. #29
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    Default Re: Voting by mail

    Quote Originally Posted by stromborg View Post
    Being able to participate in the ritual requires a certain level of privilege. Even with a "national holiday" there will always be those who have to go to work or are otherwise occupied.
    Indeed. An artifact from simpler times. But lamented - on my part anyway.

    But VBM is superior in most other aspects. And, as a bit of tradeoff, the extended period between Receiving a Ballot... and Voting Deadline... gives our family ample opportunity and impetus for discussion of the issues that on-site voting never seemed to.
    David G
    Harbor Woodworks
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    "It was a Sunday morning and Goddard gave thanks that there were still places where one could worship in temples not made by human hands." -- L. F. Herreshoff (The Compleat Cruiser)

  30. #30
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    Default Re: Voting by mail

    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Montgomery View Post
    .
    DONALD TRUMP HAS NOT CRITICIZED Ohio Governor Mike DeWine (R) and Ohio Secretary of State Frank LaRose (R) for their plan to send 7.5 million absentee ballot request forms to every registered voter ahead of the November election. Three guesses why.
    With 7.5 million per voter, some should get through

  31. #31
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    Default Re: Voting by mail

    .
    One to every registered voter, of course. 7.5 million in total.
    "We have come to live in a society based on insults, on lies and on things that just aren't true. It creates an environment where deranged people feel empowered." -- Colin Powell, 10/30/18

  32. #32
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by David G View Post
    I do kind of miss the 'going to the neighborhood polling place' ritual. It was a time of community.

    OTOH - we've been voting by mail here for decades now. The primary opponents at the time were a couple of Far Right dingbats. And precisely NONE of their dire predictions have come true. No problems of consequence. Certainly no 'voter fraud'. It works so well that 80+% of us approve. Both R's & D's approve by a large majority.

    And boy is it easy. I can drop off my ballot at MY convenience. I can take it to any number of drop-off points. Since I'm at the library often... I drop mine there. Participation rates are up.

    So... 'especially important... to have the ritual'?? I'd say it's especially important to have a secure system that is easy, promotes participation, and gets rave reviews. I'll give up the ritual, and find my community in other, perhaps more profound, ways.

    https://www.brookings.edu/blog/fixgo...igh-the-risks/

    https://thehill.com/homenews/state-w...-voting-record

    The the hypotheses is that voter turnout rates are low because it is inconvenient to go to the polls on Election Day. Consequently, the argument goes, voting by mail will increase turnout by lowering friction.

    If that hypothesis is true, then following a switch to voting by mail, one would expect to see a noticeable lift in voter turnout.

    That lift hasn't happened.

    Oregon switched to vote-by-mail in 1998. You'd expect to see a lift after 1998, yet there is none:

    https://sos.oregon.gov/elections/Doc...l_Election.pdf

    Washington State switched to voting by mail over 5 years, from 2006 to 2011, the legislature authorizing voting by mail as a county option in 2005. You would likewise expect to see a lift in turnout in Washington State, too. But... nooo.

    https://www.sos.wa.gov/elections/vot...icipation.aspx

    https://www.sos.wa.gov/elections/res...-election.aspx
    You would not enjoy Nietzsche, sir. He is fundamentally unsound. P.G. Wodehouse (Carry On, Jeeves)

  33. #33
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    Default Re: Voting by mail

    Quote Originally Posted by Nicholas Carey View Post
    The the hypotheses is that voter turnout rates are low because it is inconvenient to go to the polls on Election Day. Consequently, the argument goes, voting by mail will increase turnout by lowering friction.

    If that hypothesis is true, then following a switch to voting by mail, one would expect to see a noticeable lift in voter turnout.

    That lift hasn't happened.

    Oregon switched to vote-by-mail in 1998. You'd expect to see a lift after 1998, yet there is none:

    https://sos.oregon.gov/elections/Doc...l_Election.pdf

    Washington State switched to voting by mail over 5 years, from 2006 to 2011, the legislature authorizing voting by mail as a county option in 2005. You would likewise expect to see a lift in turnout in Washington State, too. But... nooo.

    https://www.sos.wa.gov/elections/vot...icipation.aspx

    https://www.sos.wa.gov/elections/res...-election.aspx
    Perhaps we're looking at different things. For Oregon, one could crunch the #'s various ways, but what I chose was the % of turnout for the 5 presidential elections post-1998 VS. the 5 prior.

    By my calculations turnout went from an avg. of 78% to 83%. I'd call that a lift. And not a small one - statistically speaking.
    David G
    Harbor Woodworks
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    "It was a Sunday morning and Goddard gave thanks that there were still places where one could worship in temples not made by human hands." -- L. F. Herreshoff (The Compleat Cruiser)

  34. #34
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by David G View Post
    Perhaps we're looking at different things. For Oregon, one could crunch the #'s various ways, but what I chose was the % of turnout for the 5 presidential elections post-1998 VS. the 5 prior.

    By my calculations turnout went from an avg. of 78% to 83%. I'd call that a lift. And not a small one - statistically speaking.

    I would argue that the 5 post-1998 presidential elections were rather more divisive than the 5 prior elections, so higher turnouts are to be expected. I see ordinary jitter in the turnout there.

    National elections always have higher turnout than off-year elections because people, wrongly, think that the outcome will somehow affect them more than a state or local election. Look at ordinary, off-year elections elections and you don't see the lift.
    You would not enjoy Nietzsche, sir. He is fundamentally unsound. P.G. Wodehouse (Carry On, Jeeves)

  35. #35
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    Default Re: Voting by mail

    I'd read it differently.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nicholas Carey View Post
    I would argue that the 5 post-1998 presidential elections were rather more divisive than the 5 prior elections, so higher turnouts are to be expected. I see ordinary jitter in the turnout there.

    One can make all sorts of arguments about differing conditions. I would argue that even granting your (arugable) 'more divisive' slant... that it was the VBM that allowed the 'fired up' voters to more readily vote their passion. And... from the evidence you brought to prove your assertion (charts of voter turnout) - neither of us could back up our argument with data.

    So PFFFFTTT on introducing speculative assertions not demonstrable from your data... when your original interpretation of the data proves incorrect.


    National elections always have higher turnout than off-year elections because people, wrongly, think that the outcome will somehow affect them more than a state or local election. Look at ordinary, off-year elections elections and you don't see the lift.

    Yes, as I said, one could analyze the charts various ways. And you're right, that the analysis WITH midterm elections for that same period only shows about half the amount of lift. But still a lift. Still a lift.
    David G
    Harbor Woodworks
    https://www.facebook.com/HarborWoodworks/

    "It was a Sunday morning and Goddard gave thanks that there were still places where one could worship in temples not made by human hands." -- L. F. Herreshoff (The Compleat Cruiser)

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