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Thread: Corona got into school in just hours

  1. #1
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    Default Corona got into school in just hours

    So, we're talking about education, masks in schools, etc.

    Try this:

    On the First Day of School, an Indiana Student Tests Positive for Coronavirus

    One of the first school districts in the country to reopen its doors during the coronavirus pandemic did not even make it a day before being forced to grapple with the issue facing every system actively trying to get students into classrooms: What happens when someone comes to school infected?

    Just hours into the first day of classes on Thursday, a call from the county health department notified Greenfield Central Junior High School in Indiana that a student who had walked the halls and sat in various classrooms had tested positive for the coronavirus.

    Administrators began an emergency protocol, isolating the student and ordering everyone who had come into close contact with the person, including other students, to quarantine for 14 days. It is unclear whether the student infected anyone else.

    “We knew it was a when, not if,” said Harold E. Olin, superintendent of the Greenfield-Central Community School Corporation, but were “very shocked it was on Day 1.”

    To avoid the same scenario, hundreds of districts across the country that were once planning to reopen their classrooms, many on a part-time basis, have reversed course in recent weeks as infections have spiked in many states.

    Those that do still reopen are having to prepare for the near-certain likelihood of quarantines and abrupt shutdowns when students and staff members test positive.

    Of the nation’s 25 largest school districts, all but six have announced they will start remotely, although some in places like Florida and Texas are hoping to open classrooms after a few weeks if infection rates go down, over strong objections from teachers' unions.

    More than 80 percent of California residents live in counties where test positivity rates and hospitalizations are too high for school buildings to open under state rules issued last month. And schools in Alexandria, Va., said on Friday that they would teach remotely, tipping the entire Washington-Baltimore metro area, with more than one million children, into virtual learning for the fall.

    Originally from The New York Times, you can read the rest:

    https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/on...rtan-dhp-feeds

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    Default Re: Corona got into school in just hours

    What in the world was that student doing attending classes, knowing they had been tested, but hadn't yet gotten results?

    Tom
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    Default Re: Corona got into school in just hours

    Yeah. I definitely get the sense there are too many schools not adopting a strong screening program. What could possibly go wrong?
    There's a lot of things they didn't tell me when I signed on with this outfit....

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    Default Re: Corona got into school in just hours

    Quote Originally Posted by George Jung View Post
    Yeah. I definitely get the sense there are too many schools not adopting a strong screening program. What could possibly go wrong?
    George,

    do you have any thoughts on what a strong screening program would look like? A test is only good for the moment it's given, and with delays in results, it becomes even less useful. And many infected people will not be showing symptoms.

    If there is a way to handle screening well, it's not obvious to me, and I'd love to hear what you think.

    My conclusion is that the effort must be massive, on a state level--testing lots and lots of people every day. And that will eventually bring the virus back under some control. But screening efforts at individual schools? I'm having trouble envisioning what could, and should, be done. The topic has not been addressed in our district plan other than asking parents to screen for symptoms and temps before putting kids on buses.

    Tom
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    Default Re: Corona got into school in just hours

    My school has announced that everyone on campus starting next week must take 2 tests each week with less than 24 hour turnaround. It's not going to work. Students will leave campus, party in the dorms, and attend classes in something like 4 courses each week. Every person who tests positive will need a contact list that grows exponentially. I predict my school is shut down by late October or before.

    I'm not deemed required to be on campus, so I can continue to work from home and telecommute.

    There are just too many contacts for each student during the course of any day to make this work.

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    Default Re: Corona got into school in just hours

    Quote Originally Posted by WI-Tom View Post
    What in the world was that student doing attending classes, knowing they had been tested, but hadn't yet gotten results?

    Tom
    And yet, you know they will.

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    Default Re: Corona got into school in just hours

    Last edited by SKIP KILPATRICK; 08-01-2020 at 08:24 PM.
    Skip

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    Default Re: Corona got into school in just hours

    Quote Originally Posted by WI-Tom View Post
    What in the world was that student doing attending classes, knowing they had been tested, but hadn't yet gotten results?

    Tom
    A local husband and wife got tested recently 19 days for her results. 20 for his. Both negative, when tested.
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    Default Re: Corona got into school in just hours

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Bow View Post
    A local husband and wife got tested recently 19 days for her results. 20 for his. Both negative, when tested.
    The struggle is real. The lab that was being used to offset the capacity at the state lab here was out of test kits/supplies a few weeks ago and stated no testing would be performed over the weekend. Etc. etc. Then the another lab was critically short of testing materials. Despite our lust for instant gratification, the current testing isn't a good metric (at least not in real time) for monitoring risk me thinks.
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    Default Re: Corona got into school in just hours

    Quote Originally Posted by WI-Tom View Post
    George,

    do you have any thoughts on what a strong screening program would look like? A test is only good for the moment it's given, and with delays in results, it becomes even less useful. And many infected people will not be showing symptoms.

    If there is a way to handle screening well, it's not obvious to me, and I'd love to hear what you think.

    My conclusion is that the effort must be massive, on a state level--testing lots and lots of people every day. And that will eventually bring the virus back under some control. But screening efforts at individual schools? I'm having trouble envisioning what could, and should, be done. The topic has not been addressed in our district plan other than asking parents to screen for symptoms and temps before putting kids on buses.

    Tom
    The first question at the door
    1. Have you a temperature or any symptoms?
    2. Have you been tested?
    3. Have you received the results?
    4. Are they showing clear?

    Go on from there.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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    Default Re: Corona got into school in just hours

    Meanwhile, according to the head of the CDC, for anyone who is 18 or younger, the overall death rate in this country has been 1 in a million.

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    Default Re: Corona got into school in just hours

    Quote Originally Posted by CWSmith View Post
    And yet, you know they will.
    Yes. If anyone doubted it before, they don't have grounds for doubting anymore.

    Tom
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    Default Re: Corona got into school in just hours

    Quote Originally Posted by Peerie Maa View Post
    The first question at the door
    1. Have you a temperature or any symptoms?
    2. Have you been tested?
    3. Have you received the results?
    4. Are they showing clear?

    Go on from there.
    Well, that gets derailed quickly. #2 will be "No" for everyone I know who isn't symptomatic around here.

    Tom
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    Default Re: Corona got into school in just hours

    Quote Originally Posted by peb View Post
    Meanwhile, according to the head of the CDC, for anyone who is 18 or younger, the overall death rate in this country has been 1 in a million.
    That will be a great comfort to the significant number of people who don't die but end up with serious lung, heart, and cognitive damage due to COVID-19.

    It'll be an even greater comfort to all the people that die because the 18-and-under crowd infected them.

    Tom
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    Default Re: Corona got into school in just hours

    Quote Originally Posted by WI-Tom View Post
    It'll be an even greater comfort to all the people that die because the 18-and-under crowd infected them.

    Tom
    Do you wonder how many times you need to say this before some people get the point? The young people carry COVID to their grandparents where the death rate is far higher.

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    Default Re: Corona got into school in just hours

    Quote Originally Posted by CWSmith View Post
    Do you wonder how many times you need to say this before some people get the point? The young people carry COVID to their grandparents where the death rate is far higher.
    peb has collapsed the igloo by jumping up and down on the roof for weeks, and is now dancing in the ruins along with the rest of the science deniers.

    Tom
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    Default Re: Corona got into school in just hours

    Quote Originally Posted by WI-Tom View Post
    peb has collapsed the igloo by jumping up and down on the roof for weeks, and is now dancing in the ruins along with the rest of the science deniers.

    Tom
    Meanwhile, COVID is out of control in his home state.

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    Default Re: Corona got into school in just hours

    Quote Originally Posted by CWSmith View Post
    Meanwhile, COVID is out of control in his home state.
    Of course, association does not imply causation--but it doesn't rule it out, either.

    Tom
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    Default Re: Corona got into school in just hours

    Quote Originally Posted by Peerie Maa View Post
    The first question at the door
    1. Have you a temperature or any symptoms?
    2. Have you been tested?
    3. Have you received the results?
    4. Are they showing clear?

    Go on from there.
    By the time the student gets to the door, it may be too late. That student may have been on the bus, in the car with others or simply hanging out with friends waiting to get in the door.
    "The pessimist complains about the wind; the optimist expects it to change; the realist adjusts the sails."
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    Default Re: Corona got into school in just hours

    I'll bump this question--anyone have ideas what schools should be doing as far as screening goes? A challenge, with most young people asymptomatic, very few tests available, and results not being returned quickly.

    Quote Originally Posted by WI-Tom View Post
    If there is a way to handle screening well, it's not obvious to me, and I'd love to hear what you think.
    Tom
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    Default Re: Corona got into school in just hours

    Quote Originally Posted by Canoez View Post
    By the time the student gets to the door, it may be too late. That student may have been on the bus, in the car with others or simply hanging out with friends waiting to get in the door.
    So you identify everyone in that group, send them home, have them self-isolate and get a test. As to school busses, screen them before they get on the bus. Thermometers may need to be issued to every bus driver.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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    Default Re: Corona got into school in just hours

    Quote Originally Posted by Peerie Maa View Post
    So you identify everyone in that group and if necessary test them. As to school busses, screen them before they get on the bus. Thermometers may need to be issued to every bus driver.
    But the majority of infected people, especially young people, will not be symptomatic. Temp screenings will be useless.

    The more I look into it, the more devilishly hard to solve the screening problem becomes.

    Tom
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    Default Re: Corona got into school in just hours

    This is such a bad idea . . . The kids are going to be like lice and rats as a vector. How many kids will die according to the statistics? If my math is correct, the death rate as of 6/23/2020, for the 0-25 age group averages to about .067% for those who contract covid 19. if you take a quarter of the population (25% of 104.5 million) for that age group which I will assume contracts the disease by the time a vaccine comes out and is readily available, that's 700,000 dead kids. That doesn't include All or the adults over the age of 25 they will infect.

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    Default Re: Corona got into school in just hours

    Quote Originally Posted by Peerie Maa View Post
    So you identify everyone in that group, send them home, have them self-isolate and get a test. As to school busses, screen them before they get on the bus. Thermometers may need to be issued to every bus driver.
    You cannot pro-actively screen for what you cannot observe and the patient themself may not know. You will be spending your resources trying to do contact tracing and quarantining portions of the school population after the fact.
    "The pessimist complains about the wind; the optimist expects it to change; the realist adjusts the sails."
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    Default Re: Corona got into school in just hours

    Quote Originally Posted by Canoez View Post
    You cannot pro-actively screen for what you cannot observe and the patient themself may not know. You will be spending your resources trying to do contact tracing and quarantining portions of the school population after the fact.
    Yes. But what we SHOULD be doing with those resources is using them to create systems to eliminate the need for contact tracing and quarantining--i.e. suppressing the spread of the virus on a massive level with strict national or state measures, rather than trying to pretend we can largely ignore safety recommendations and operate normally before that happens.

    Will education suffer if in-person classes can't resume? Yes. So will everything else--for a while.

    But to open now, in most areas of the country, is close to criminally irresponsible in my judgment. Which is why Republicans are trying so hard to eliminate all accountability measures for employers.

    Tom
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    Default Re: Corona got into school in just hours

    How many children's lives is this worth? 4000, 10,000, 25,000? I think 25,000 is a minimum number of dead children for resuming in-person education. Weren't the Republicans heavily critical of 23,000 dead from the swine flue? And now they are okay with at least that many dead kids?

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    Default Re: Corona got into school in just hours

    Quote Originally Posted by Canoez View Post
    You cannot pro-actively screen for what you cannot observe and the patient themself may not know. You will be spending your resources trying to do contact tracing and quarantining portions of the school population after the fact.
    High temperature is a simple indicator, it is not perfect but is better than doing nowt. use a thermometer on the students' ear. Even thermal imaging cameras will give a good indication of a high temperature.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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    Default Re: Corona got into school in just hours

    Quote Originally Posted by Peerie Maa View Post
    High temperature is a simple indicator, it is not perfect but is better than doing nowt. use a thermometer on the students' ear. Even thermal imaging cameras will give a good indication of a high temperature.
    While I agree, I think that is only a small piece of the puzzle. Yes, it is a relatively simple and inexpensive approach, but we have now seen camps and schools where they thought they had a good preventive plan in place close again because of spread of the virus.

    Infection transmission in the general population has to be very low before considering opening up schools and many places likely are not “there”.
    "The pessimist complains about the wind; the optimist expects it to change; the realist adjusts the sails."
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    Default Re: Corona got into school in just hours

    Quote Originally Posted by Canoez View Post
    While I agree, I think that is only a small piece of the puzzle. Yes, it is a relatively simple and inexpensive approach, but we have now seen camps and schools where they thought they had a good preventive plan in place close again because of spread of the virus.

    Infection transmission in the general population has to be very low before considering opening up schools and many places likely are not “there”.
    No argument there. On Tom's thread on planning for reopening, I shared search results on what European schools are doing by way of planning and implementation. The info is out there.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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    Default Re: Corona got into school in just hours

    Quote Originally Posted by WI-Tom View Post
    peb has collapsed the igloo by jumping up and down on the roof for weeks, and is now dancing in the ruins along with the rest of the science deniers.

    Tom
    BS, I have paid more attention to the science than anyone on this forum.

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    Default Re: Corona got into school in just hours

    Quote Originally Posted by peb View Post
    BS, I have paid more attention to the science than anyone on this forum.
    A. I doubt it.

    and

    B. Even supposing that were true, in all your "paying attention to science," somehow you missed the fundamental point that even if students under 18 are unlikely to die from COVID-19, they are still perfectly able to infect those who WILL be likely to die.

    THAT is the kind of elementary science you consistently ignore and deny.

    Tom
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    Default Re: Corona got into school in just hours

    Quote Originally Posted by peb View Post
    BS, I have paid more attention to the science than anyone on this forum.
    wow
    Simpler is better, except when complicated looks really cool.

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    Default Re: Corona got into school in just hours

    Quote Originally Posted by CWSmith View Post
    My school has announced that everyone on campus starting next week must take 2 tests each week with less than 24 hour turnaround. It's not going to work. Students will leave campus, party in the dorms, and attend classes in something like 4 courses each week. Every person who tests positive will need a contact list that grows exponentially. I predict my school is shut down by late October or before.

    I'm not deemed required to be on campus, so I can continue to work from home and telecommute.

    There are just too many contacts for each student during the course of any day to make this work.
    Just how are they going to get that testing done. Arenít there reagent shortages going on around the country slowing testing down. I know very few people that can get a 24 hr test result. I donít think I know any actually.
    Tom

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    Default Re: Corona got into school in just hours

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Pless View Post
    wow
    That is a hell of statement, lol. Aren’t a few on here scientists??
    Tom

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    Default Re: Corona got into school in just hours

    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Wilkinson View Post
    Just how are they going to get that testing done. Aren’t there reagent shortages going on around the country slowing testing down. I know very few people that can get a 24 hr test result. I don’t think I know any actually.
    I was told the tests will be done in-house, but don't hold me to that. Frankly, I will believe it when I see it. We have 15,000+ students with a significant fraction coming from out of state plus faculty and staff and the goal is to test everyone twice weekly. Let's say I am skeptical. Either way, I don't think the testing and tracking can outperform the questionable behavior of young people that will be bringing the virus onto campus.

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