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Thread: Letter from South Africa

  1. #71
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    Default Re: Letter from South Africa

    My reading of Martin Meredith's biography of Mandela, and The Prison Letters of Nelson Mandela - edited by Sahm Venter - indicated that Winnie was pro-violence, pro-revenge, while Nelson was not. It was implied that this was a very strong reason for their later marital split. It also was stated in both books that Moses Kotane, a member of the ANC working committee and lifelong communist, and not Mandela, was the advocate of communism in the ANC and primary conduit to the soviet and Chinese communist parties. In June of 1960 Mandela and Walter Sisulu met to discuss the ANC's plans to counteract the Pretoria government's escalating violence against blacks, who had up to that time been staging non-violent protests that were met with extreme violence by the police. It was decided that passive demonstration in the face of violent repression would not remain as an effective proposition, and that the ANC would have to meet violence with violence if the ANC were to retain the support of the people. "Mandela and Sisulu both believed that a limited campaign of sabotage would scare off foreign investors, disrupt trade and cause sufficient damage to the economy to force the white electorate and the government to alter course." Mandela: A Biography" (Martin Meredith, pp 196)

    As a related aside, I have found Mr. Meredith's biography widely and exhaustively researched, and he is not shy about shining a light on Mandela's failings and peccadilloes. I do not believe that it is in any way a whitewash (excuse the pun) of Mandela and his actions, but rather, it is as faithful and strict in adherence to the factual truth and timeline of events as can be determined from the available materials in 1997.
    Last edited by mmd; 08-03-2020 at 09:31 PM.
    Hope for the best, but plan for the worst.

  2. #72
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    Default Re: Letter from South Africa

    In my many years in the Caribbean,( on and off),I saw many South African yachts that had "escaped".
    In the early 80's, Sint Maarten was referred to as Little South Africa...of course, it was only the white ones.
    Many islands (countries) were off limits to SA flagged boats.
    The population of many of the places I go today is far out of proportion ...white South Africans.
    Not just on boats /yachts, but everywhere.
    When younger, I felt South African white women were the prettiest I'd ever seen,and we are talking about a small place filled with naked French and Scandinavian girls.
    I'd hear stories, see shaking heads,
    if not for my personal experiences , I would know nothing of South Africa,only the pop song "free nelson mandella".that is my own fault I guess, as I do nit read much, admittedly not very cerebral.

  3. #73
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    Default Re: Letter from South Africa

    This is a very interesting thread.

    From what I can figure out SA would be an ok place to visit if I took the time to learn about it in advance, plan my trip and keep various things in mind.

    It's at level 2 - exercise increased caution.

    https://travel.state.gov/content/tra...uthAfrica.html
    Will

  4. #74
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    Default Re: Letter from South Africa

    It is an interesting thread indeed. As always, the thoughtful and balanced responses come from those that are better informed and has at least read a bit about the history of South Africa, and some of its leaders like Nelson Mandela. He was indeed a man (and therefore not without flaws), that all South Africans are rightfully proud of. Some other commenters here, on the other hand, exhibit nothing but ignorance and malevolence. Nothing new about that either.

    From 1994 onwards, since we had our first democratic elections and Nelson Mandela was elected president, initial goodwill and optimism slowly turned into horror, watching each successive elected government becoming more corrupt, authoritarian and dismissive of democracy. The current batch's incompetence is only eclipsed by their greed, corruption, criminality and vindictiveness. Personally, a Zimbabwe-esque outcome is all I can realistically see in the future, and I am by nature an optimist.

    For those that would like a bit of extra reading, I am posting a link to an opinion piece by RW Johnson below. Feel free to Google his credentials. If you can't access the link
    and would like to read it, PM me and I can send you a word file.

    https://www.politicsweb.co.za/opinio...egime-to-die-i

  5. #75
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    Default Re: Letter from South Africa

    Quote Originally Posted by mmd View Post
    My reading of Martin Meredith's biography of Mandela, and The Prison Letters of Nelson Mandela - edited by Sahm Venter - indicated that Winnie was pro-violence, pro-revenge, while Nelson was not. It was implied that this was a very strong reason for their later marital split. It also was stated in both books that Moses Kotane, a member of the ANC working committee and lifelong communist, and not Mandela, was the advocate of communism in the ANC and primary conduit to the soviet and Chinese communist parties. In June of 1960 Mandela and Walter Sisulu met to discuss the ANC's plans to counteract the Pretoria government's escalating violence against blacks, who had up to that time been staging non-violent protests that were met with extreme violence by the police. It was decided that passive demonstration in the face of violent repression would not remain as an effective proposition, and that the ANC would have to meet violence with violence if the ANC were to retain the support of the people. "Mandela and Sisulu both believed that a limited campaign of sabotage would scare off foreign investors, disrupt trade and cause sufficient damage to the economy to force the white electorate and the government to alter course." Mandela: A Biography" (Martin Meredith, pp 196)

    As a related aside, I have found Mr. Meredith's biography widely and exhaustively researched, and he is not shy about shining a light on Mandela's failings and peccadilloes. I do not believe that it is in any way a whitewash (excuse the pun) of Mandela and his actions, but rather, it is as faithful and strict in adherence to the factual truth and timeline of events as can be determined from the available materials in 1997.
    Mr Meredith's biography(on NM) is no doubt worth a read, then as well, this book should be backed up by a mass of extra literature about the country and the people therein. Africa has a powerful influence on people, indeed as it has had on all humankind as our place of origin. Mandela was influenced by the land, his people, other people and foreign ideologies too, he was not an autonomous being. As an African, he had mixed ancestry in that his tribe was not pure Nguni(Bantu) and were despised by other tribes who believed that they were the true heirs of those pats of the land stretching north and eastwards from the Indian Ocean shores.

  6. #76
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    Default Re: Letter from South Africa

    Thanks for that, Devout. Not a very rosy picture, but it is good to have news from the front lines.
    Hope for the best, but plan for the worst.

  7. #77
    Join Date
    Sep 2015
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    Whangarei New Zealand
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    Default Re: Letter from South Africa

    Quote Originally Posted by wizbang 13 View Post
    In my many years in the Caribbean,( on and off),I saw many South African yachts that had "escaped".
    In the early 80's, Sint Maarten was referred to as Little South Africa...of course, it was only the white ones.
    Many islands (countries) were off limits to SA flagged boats.
    The population of many of the places I go today is far out of proportion ...white South Africans.
    Not just on boats /yachts, but everywhere.
    When younger, I felt South African white women were the prettiest I'd ever seen,and we are talking about a small place filled with naked French and Scandinavian girls.
    I'd hear stories, see shaking heads,
    if not for my personal experiences , I would know nothing of South Africa,only the pop song "free nelson mandella".that is my own fault I guess, as I do nit read much, admittedly not very cerebral.
    Sure, my boy (the one bearing my name) was one of those, who as a kid used to play about Simpsons bay. We left the Islands for the Uk and Europe, then went back to SA when Mandela was released, but he kept on going back there (to SA). until nearly the age of forty, when he decided to try making a permanent break (from SA, from where he had the opportunity to leave and did do, but only temporarily).
    I got the sh*ts with the turn to racism and got out permanently, having been against the 'old' racism to start with and still am anti any form of racism.
    Last edited by Lugalong; 08-04-2020 at 05:14 PM.

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