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Thread: Letter from South Africa

  1. #36
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    Default Re: Letter from South Africa

    Quote Originally Posted by WI-Tom View Post
    Of course, that chart is 8 years old... Still scary, but it may not reflect the current reality.

    Tom
    Or it may. I believe it does. But I took the time to look into the data. Did you?

    72A6CE86-D7FB-431C-BE47-121B4B1D8BAD.jpg

  2. #37
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    Default Re: Letter from South Africa

    Quote Originally Posted by McMike View Post
    Wait, SA replaces an oppressive government, geared for the advantage of a narrow few in the population, with a hybrid of the original crooks and bigots and those they oppressed, and they expect a functional experience? SA is still wildly corrupt, as it's always been.

    I love the implicit blaming of the "Blacks" here. Like the "whites" were paragons of egalitarianism and purity to begin with. The entire experiment was sabotaged from the get-go by powerful "Whites" who still think the "natives" are not worth the sh17 under their heel.

    I dismiss the OPs opinion out of hand.
    I don't think the OP expressed an opinion, he was merely stating the reality of what he experiences right now. The rest you sucked out of your thumb.

  3. #38
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    Default Re: Letter from South Africa

    Quote Originally Posted by devout View Post
    I don't think the OP expressed an opinion, he was merely stating the reality of what he experiences right now. The rest you sucked out of your thumb.
    Quote Originally Posted by phlygh View Post
    As I start this there's gunshots-two neighbours whatapp to see if we're ok. We are-hardly regestered a nearby gun shot. Anyway, 25 years after being blessed with democracy the "Ruling Party" (thats what they like to call themselves) has removed as many whites as possible from all levels of government and State Owned Enterprises and replaced them with double the number of loyal party supporters at triple the pay. This has led to huge inefficiencies evwrywhere, rampant corruption, a vast patronage network, coupled with radical unionism that thwarts any reformation of the public service and, more importantly, a very disfunctional education system. Small towns are bankrupt, as is the national airline, the national electricity supplier, national broadcaster. Rivers and dams have untreated sewage. Economy was in recession , now its contracted 7%.Unemployment is 50%.Theft of everything from manhole covers, freeway crash barriers, railway tracks, copper cable from traffic lights and lampposts. And the State's response-more Affirmative Action and more taxes! That's why I'm buildind a boat. John

    Lol, Read it again. Justify it however you want but the OP blamed the "Blacks" for the utter murderous corruption that existed before. Whites made the mess all by themselves, and now they're pulling a Trump in trying to play the victim. Most of the white farmers should have been hung for murder and rape back in the 90s. That would have gone a long way for justice. Again, whites are wallowing in their own sh17 in SA. Unless you get serious about that, you're not fixing anything else. Even if the best of intentions and efforts was committed to in SA, starting today, it will take at least 2 generations to fix the level of inequity and rightful rage that exists in your country. I wish you luck if you're truly on the side of peace and justice, you're going to need it. We're still feeling the effects of our own crimes here in the US. We had to fight a war over it, and may have to yet fight another one.

  4. #39
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    Default Re: Letter from South Africa

    Which war was that?

    "My paramount object in this struggle is to save the Union, and is not either to save or to destroy slavery. If I could save the Union without freeing any slave I would do it, and if I could save it by freeing all the slaves I would do it; and if I could save it by freeing some and leaving others alone I would also do that. What I do about slavery, and the colored race, I do because I believe it helps to save the Union; and what I forbear, I forbear because I do not believe it would help to save the Union. I shall do less whenever I shall believe what I am doing hurts the cause, and I shall do more whenever I shall believe doing more will help the cause." The Collected Works of Abraham Lincoln edited by Roy P. Basler, Volume V, "Letter to Horace Greeley" (August 22, 1862), p. 388.

  5. #40
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    Default Re: Letter from South Africa

    Quote Originally Posted by McMike View Post
    Lol, Read it again. Justify it however you want but the OP blamed the "Blacks" for the utter murderous corruption that existed before. Whites made the mess all by themselves, and now they're pulling a Trump in trying to play the victim. Most of the white farmers should have been hung for murder and rape back in the 90s. That would have gone a long way for justice. Again, whites are wallowing in their own sh17 in SA. Unless you get serious about that, you're not fixing anything else. Even if the best of intentions and efforts was committed to in SA, starting today, it will take at least 2 generations to fix the level of inequity and rightful rage that exists in your country. I wish you luck if you're truly on the side of peace and justice, you're going to need it. We're still feeling the effects of our own crimes here in the US. We had to fight a war over it, and may have to yet fight another one.
    It may be possible but likely not productive to respond to the sheer stupidity of this. Tata.

  6. #41
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    Default Re: Letter from South Africa

    Quote Originally Posted by bluedog225 View Post
    Which war was that?

    "My paramount object in this struggle is to save the Union, and is not either to save or to destroy slavery. If I could save the Union without freeing any slave I would do it, and if I could save it by freeing all the slaves I would do it; and if I could save it by freeing some and leaving others alone I would also do that. What I do about slavery, and the colored race, I do because I believe it helps to save the Union; and what I forbear, I forbear because I do not believe it would help to save the Union. I shall do less whenever I shall believe what I am doing hurts the cause, and I shall do more whenever I shall believe doing more will help the cause." The Collected Works of Abraham Lincoln edited by Roy P. Basler, Volume V, "Letter to Horace Greeley" (August 22, 1862), p. 388.
    Pore l'il denialist.

    EVERY STATE that seceded named the preservation of slavery as its NUMBER ONE GOAL.

    Lincoln's motives are mere mumblings in the face of that Hell.
    Rattling the teacups.

  7. #42
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    Default Re: Letter from South Africa

    C. Ross, which history books have you been reading! You're overdoing the "violence and oppression" by a huge amount. Genocide, none. Land theft, there were various societal cleavages that were exploited. Apartheid land clearances from the 1950s onwards excluded. John

  8. #43
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    Default Re: Letter from South Africa

    Quote Originally Posted by bluedog225 View Post
    Or it may. I believe it does. But I took the time to look into the data. Did you?

    72A6CE86-D7FB-431C-BE47-121B4B1D8BAD.jpg
    I wasn't denying it--just pointing out that the chart you posted was 8 years old and might not reflect current realities. So, to that extent, yes, I did look into the data. Not looking for a fight, just for more current data. Thanks for posting it.

    Tom
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  9. #44
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    Default Re: Letter from South Africa

    Quote Originally Posted by bluedog225 View Post
    Which war was that?
    You missed the relevant Lincoln quotation:

    One eighth of the whole population were colored slaves not distributed generally over the union but localized in the southern part of it. These slaves constituted a peculiar and powerful interest. All knew that this interest was somehow the cause of the war. To strengthen perpetuate and extend this interest was the object for which the insurgents would rend the Union even by war while the government claimed no right to do more than to restrict the territorial enlargement of it.
    Edit: I don't think it's fair to call you a denialist if your claim is that the North did not set out to end slavery. Lincoln was quite clear that was not his immediate motivation.

    However, the North DID have the goal of stopping the expansion of slavery, which would have resulted in its slow decline and eventual disappearance.

    But EVERYONE is clear that slavery was the cause of the war. I'd have to say the denialist label fits anyone who argues otherwise.

    Tom
    Last edited by WI-Tom; 08-02-2020 at 10:31 AM.
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  10. #45
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    Default Re: Letter from South Africa

    Zimbabwe.

  11. #46
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    Default Re: Letter from South Africa

    Sorry Tom. I misunderstood your post. This type data has a large time lag that varies by country. I think it is accurate and these trends don’t change quickly, absent revolution, war, and similar.

  12. #47
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    Default Re: Letter from South Africa

    Quote Originally Posted by bluedog225 View Post
    Sorry Tom. I misunderstood your post. This type data has a large time lag that varies by country. I think it is accurate and these trends don’t change quickly, absent revolution, war, and similar.
    Easy to do. Honestly, I was completely unaware that things are so bad in South Africa. The U.S. is not particularly good at paying attention to events outside its borders.

    Tom
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  13. #48
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    Default Re: Letter from South Africa

    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Hadfield View Post
    Zimbabwe.
    What about it? Is your one-word post a shot across the bow declaring your intention to discuss that country in relation to developments in South Africa?

    If so, have at it. I look forward to your comments.

  14. #49
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    Default Re: Letter from South Africa

    Yes.

  15. #50
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    Default Re: Letter from South Africa

    Just so. Reasonable minds can differ. Economic and political control at the outset and more focus on slavery at the end. But even then, “somehow the cause of the war” reflects that it was not cut and dried. I dislike the shallow reinterpretation of history the internet has fostered and encouraged. And as control over media outlets concentrates, so does the ability to control information.

  16. #51
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    Default Re: Letter from South Africa

    My stepfather's ancestors were Hugenot French, religious refugees to Sth Africa in about 1640. He migrated to Australia in the late 1920's because of the racism and discrimination and he was on the 'winning' side, the family being very wealthy with links to gold and diamonds and owning the Cape Times. If asked he would always say proudly he was African.
    He would weep.

  17. #52
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    Default Re: Letter from South Africa

    Quote Originally Posted by bluedog225 View Post
    Just so. Reasonable minds can differ. Economic and political control at the outset and more focus on slavery at the end. But even then, “somehow the cause of the war” reflects that it was not cut and dried. I dislike the shallow reinterpretation of history the internet has fostered and encouraged. And as control over media outlets concentrates, so does the ability to control information.
    Yeah.

    So do I.
    Rattling the teacups.

  18. #53
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    Default Re: Letter from South Africa

    Quote Originally Posted by phlygh View Post
    C. Ross, which history books have you been reading! You're overdoing the "violence and oppression" by a huge amount. Genocide, none. Land theft, there were various societal cleavages that were exploited. Apartheid land clearances from the 1950s onwards excluded. John
    Phlygh,feedback you are getting here is a taste of what to expect when and if you do manage to leave SA with your boat and attempt to communicate your experience to others on certain other continents.You might even decide to go back to SA when you see how wilful ignorance has the potential to wreck any place it rules.We all have to die somewhere and I know people who are resigned to the fact that they will end their days in SA. Ive done something similar to what you are doing, so do have sympathy, but understand that the grass is not always greener elsewhere.

  19. #54
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    Default Re: Letter from South Africa

    Lugalong, I have no intention of emigrating(got a british passport, and have encouraged our children to leave) . These are difficult times for SA and the future looks bleak.I don't think we are heading for civil war, but a collapse like Venezuela or Zimbabwe may happen. We actually have a nice lifestyle here, the africans don't universally hate us-crime and violence affects everyone.

  20. #55
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    Default Re: Letter from South Africa

    Lugalong, I misunderstood you at first, thanks for the input.
    I do want a long break from this place, and see other developing countries. I find it amusing that S africans who emigrate either never, ever come back to visit, or, if they do they're terrified.

  21. #56
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    Default Re: Letter from South Africa

    One last thing, then I'll try shut up - those brutal farm killings may have an element of personal revenge to them. Ex employees, tenants evicted, etc.

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    Default Re: Letter from South Africa

    And I'll add to my previous post: Israel. (And I was born a member of the tribe so you can't accuse me of antisemitism. I just can't ignore reality.) The oppressed become the oppressors. The Holocaust in Nazi Germany... well it (should) need no explanation. But that had nothing to do with the native population of Palestine. Lots of countries accepted Jewish refugees after WWII... The USA, the UK, France, Canada, Australia, et al, and in all cases, those Jews assimilated into those nations while still maintaining their faith. But in Palestine, that was not enough, they created a theocracy, "The Jewish State", (with the consent of the western powers) which meant suddenly every non-Jew became a lesser citizen, if any rights at all. So they get oppressed. After decades of oppression they get pretty angry, and lash out. And what does Israel say? TERRORISTS! Here's one for ya:

    "Terrorism is the war of the poor, and war is the terrorism of the rich." - Peter Ustinov
    When you can take the pebble from my hand, it will be time for you to leave.

  23. #58
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    Default Re: Letter from South Africa

    Quote Originally Posted by phlygh View Post
    One last thing, then I'll try shut up - those brutal farm killings may have an element of personal revenge to them. Ex employees, tenants evicted, etc.
    No need to "shut-up", it's probably a good thing to expose happenings over there and I salute your effort to salvage some of your no doubt hard earned posessions. My family put a lot into the country and did not get a great deal out of it, but then it was a matter of choice and although my paternal ancestors were British, I could only stick-out living for 1 year in England on a boat.On my maternal side, the family did not manage to keep the property in Table valley (now the city of Cape Town), when the eldest son went to fight in WW1 and the elder( his father or grandfather's father, who had spent his life building the rail line from CT to the interior, working a an engineer under Brounger),made a go at grape farming in the Gamtoos valley, but which did not work out. Then, land left by my own father( who did not last long after he came back from his time in WW2),was virtually given to the Xhosa people by the apartheid government when they created the Ciskei. His grandfather had died while holding that land ( his home, when arriving in the (then Cape colony) as an 1820 British Settler.That past is enough for me to count myself lucky to be out of there. Especially so, since father( who with mother, were journalists for papers in opposition to the apartheid Nats) were on the verge of leaving to start a new life in Rhodesia when he died, soon after the Nats took power. Again, I suppose I can count myself lucky for skipping that predicament (seeing as it's now Zimbabwe). Your effort to launch and sail from Durban is more worthy of discussion than strife and agro over land posession. I'm wondering how feasible this (option of Port Natal as a launching place) is nowadays?
    Last edited by Lugalong; 08-03-2020 at 02:00 AM.

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    Default Re: Letter from South Africa

    I have nothing to offer except to say that this thread is a fascinating reveal of decades (and generations) of events many people were completely unaware of.

    Man's inhumanity to man.

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    Default Re: Letter from South Africa

    Quote Originally Posted by Lugalong View Post
    Then, land left by my own father( who did not last long after he came back from his time in WW2),was virtually given to the Xhosa people by the apartheid government when they created the Ciskei.
    So it cut both ways sometimes.

    The "Homelands" had to be one of the stupidest ideas of a very stupid regime.

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    Default Re: Letter from South Africa

    Quote Originally Posted by George. View Post
    So it cut both ways sometimes.

    The "Homelands" had to be one of the stupidest ideas of a very stupid regime.
    Got to agree on the stupidity of that regime, but it was hardly worse than the science based idea of racism that preceded it in the initial segregation laws introduced by Cecil Rhodes.Social engineering is never going to correct the imperfection that exists in our genus.

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    Default Re: Letter from South Africa

    Lugalong, my stepfather trained as a Civil Engineer building railway bridges, it was the treatment of the black labourers as dispensible that turned his political and industrial thoughts to the left. The family name is Serrurier.

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    Default Re: Letter from South Africa

    Quote Originally Posted by Lugalong View Post
    Got to agree on the stupidity of that regime, but it was hardly worse than the science based idea of racism that preceded it in the initial segregation laws introduced by Cecil Rhodes.Social engineering is never going to correct the imperfection that exists in our genus.
    Not much difference between tribalism and racism...

    The tribal homelands were breeding grounds for corrupt government. The de Klerk regime bought their politicians into submission, and let South African business buy them into wealth. No big surprise that when everyone got to vote in national elections the resulting government had the same vices.

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    Default Re: Letter from South Africa

    Quote Originally Posted by George. View Post
    Not much difference between tribalism and racism...

    The tribal homelands were breeding grounds for corrupt government. The de Klerk regime bought their politicians into submission, and let South African business buy them into wealth. No big surprise that when everyone got to vote in national elections the resulting government had the same vices.
    Tribalism has always been the basis of African society, except for the smaller units of San people.
    Efforts to establish English as a common language might have made a huge difference in the way of easing tribal boundaries, instead of promoting them.

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    Default Re: Letter from South Africa

    It is sad to see a country that was granted a 'fresh start' and filled with so much optimism after it shed the yoke of apartheid going downhill into racism, tribalism, and corruption. Mr. Mandela must be spinning in his grave.
    Hope for the best, but plan for the worst.

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    Default Re: Letter from South Africa

    Yes. And the lack of reporting is not helping. Looks like the local new sources have dried up.

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    Default Re: Letter from South Africa

    Quote Originally Posted by mmd View Post
    It is sad to see a country that was granted a 'fresh start' and filled with so much optimism after it shed the yoke of apartheid going downhill into racism, tribalism, and corruption. Mr. Mandela must be spinning in his grave.
    What he did to enable a peaceful transition to enfranchisement was admirable, but don't forget that he was not always that way inclined.The current situation is pretty much what he was promoting as an ideology before his release from Robben Island.

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    Default Re: Letter from South Africa

    In the biographies that I have read about Mr. Mandela, and what I recall about reporting from South Africa during the turbulent years leading up to his release and election as leader of the country, Mr. Mandela always espoused transition to non-apartheid rule that did not involve killings. One biography noted how concerned and upset Mandela was when a planned ANC operation to disrupt power to Johannesburg by blowing up a power-line tower accidentally killed two utility workers who unexpectedly showed up at the targeted tower. Others in the ANC advocated a more violent transition, and acted accordingly, especially while Mandela was incarcerated. I believe that his actions during his presidency confirmed his dedication to peaceful transition to non-apartheid. The ANC 'went off the rails' and became more dictatorial and violent after his passing.
    Hope for the best, but plan for the worst.

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    Default Re: Letter from South Africa

    Quote Originally Posted by mmd View Post
    It is sad to see a country that was granted a 'fresh start' and filled with so much optimism after it shed the yoke of apartheid going downhill into racism, tribalism, and corruption. Mr. Mandela must be spinning in his grave.
    Mandela was an anomaly — magnificent, unprecedented, and irreplaceable.

    South Africa is going to go where Zimbabwe is.

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    Default Re: Letter from South Africa

    Quote Originally Posted by mmd View Post
    In the biographies that I have read about Mr. Mandela, and what I recall about reporting from South Africa during the turbulent years leading up to his release and election as leader of the country, Mr. Mandela always espoused transition to non-apartheid rule that did not involve killings. One biography noted how concerned and upset Mandela was when a planned ANC operation to disrupt power to Johannesburg by blowing up a power-line tower accidentally killed two utility workers who unexpectedly showed up at the targeted tower. Others in the ANC advocated a more violent transition, and acted accordingly, especially while Mandela was incarcerated. I believe that his actions during his presidency confirmed his dedication to peaceful transition to non-apartheid. The ANC 'went off the rails' and became more dictatorial and violent after his passing.
    Embellished narratives might portray the above, however, it is just too difficult to believe this, having growing up experiencing the lead-up to the Rivonia trials and hearing journalists close to the heart of the matter(such as an uncle who was part of a group that started the paper 'the Sowetan', expressing what they new about political events of the time).Then I witnessed bombings attributed to Umkhonto we Sizwe and lived through the time of transition to observe changes that were to be expected from the growing influence of the communist party side of the ANC. Agreed, the ANC started out as a movement to effect peaceful change, but the armed wing (Umkhonto), started by the Mandelas(you have to include Winnie), changed that.

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