Page 2 of 2 FirstFirst 12
Results 36 to 66 of 66

Thread: The ubiquitous "Banks Dory"...size really does matter.

  1. #36
    Join Date
    Dec 2012
    Posts
    128

    Default Re: The ubiquitous "Banks Dory"...size really does matter.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gib Etheridge View Post
    ...think about how adding the 10% throughout will give the stem and transom a little more rake. That will look better.
    Do you see what I mean? If not try drawing it up to scale, top view and side view,both ways on paper. It's such a simple lofting that that won't be too difficult. You may find that you want to change your approach.
    Thank you again! Good advise. I am playing with the lines on paper first. Then full scale on the plywood. It will look good before I cut wood...promise.

  2. #37
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Location
    Salt Spring Island, BC
    Posts
    7,439

    Default Re: The ubiquitous "Banks Dory"...size really does matter.

    And promise to post a build thread?

  3. #38
    Join Date
    Dec 2012
    Posts
    128

    Default Re: The ubiquitous "Banks Dory"...size really does matter.

    Quote Originally Posted by TerryLL View Post
    The answer to the question in your opening post, is "none of the above".
    I agree. This thread has helped me tremendously in realizing this. I just kicked two of the four adults off the boat...in my mind.
    Dropping the word "comfortable", but adding a large dog with good sea legs.

  4. #39
    Join Date
    Jun 2003
    Location
    Central Coast, Ca
    Posts
    29,077

    Default Re: The ubiquitous "Banks Dory"...size really does matter.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gillig View Post
    I agree. This thread has helped me tremendously in realizing this. I just kicked two of the four adults off the boat...in my mind.
    Dropping the word "comfortable", but adding a large dog with good sea legs.
    18 foot oal would be about right then

  5. #40
    Join Date
    Dec 2012
    Posts
    128

    Default Re: The ubiquitous "Banks Dory"...size really does matter.

    Quote Originally Posted by TerryLL View Post
    I built the 18'3" John Dory Swampscott a few years ago. No outboard, but it moved very nicely with two rowers.
    I have the plans for the John Dory in my basement. How do you think it would compare to Gardner's 20' Banks dory? For example...do you think you would be able to stand up with two adults onboard...and then, assuming calm conditions, lean into the side to bring the gunwale down to the surface in a controlled way to retrieve a dead halibut, dog, child etc. etc.? Then, snap back to level? I'm guessing that the John Dory could pull this off. Maybe not the smaller 16' Amberjack Swampscott. Thoughts? Thanks!
    Edit: to add...dog and child would hopefully be alive ;-)

  6. #41
    Join Date
    Jun 2003
    Location
    Central Coast, Ca
    Posts
    29,077

    Default Re: The ubiquitous "Banks Dory"...size really does matter.

    I would choose a Swampscott dory over any banks dory all day every day
    ^^^

    And just so we are talking apples and apples:
    Google big halibut


  7. #42
    Join Date
    Dec 2012
    Posts
    128

    Default Re: The ubiquitous "Banks Dory"...size really does matter.

    Quote Originally Posted by TerryLL View Post
    First, I can tell by your questions that you have never pulled a halibut into a small boat.
    True. It was a big boat. A charter out of Homer, AK. The halibut was around 55 lbs. It was like pulling up a sheet of plywood. No fight at all. We shot it in the head before hauling it aboard with the davit. A somewhat disappointing experience...but I did have a freezer full of fishy goodness for a year.

    Please let me know if this video is viewable...(not sure if I'm doing this right).

    Last edited by Gillig; 08-04-2020 at 09:48 PM.

  8. #43
    Join Date
    Dec 2012
    Posts
    128

    Default Re: The ubiquitous "Banks Dory"...size really does matter.

    Quote Originally Posted by TerryLL View Post
    The only safe way to deal with them is to hog-tie them into a circle with the tail tied to the mouth. Huge mistake to just let them lie bleeding on the floorboards.
    ^^^
    I think I might need to try this with my daughter's son.

  9. #44
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    Austria
    Posts
    219

    Default Re: The ubiquitous "Banks Dory"...size really does matter.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gillig View Post
    I have the plans for the John Dory in my basement. How do you think it would compare to Gardner's 20' Banks dory? For example...do you think you would be able to stand up with two adults onboard...and then, assuming calm conditions, lean into the side to bring the gunwale down to the surface in a controlled way to retrieve a dead halibut, dog, child etc. etc.? Then, snap back to level? I'm guessing that the John Dory could pull this off. Maybe not the smaller 16' Amberjack Swampscott. Thoughts? Thanks!
    Edit: to add...dog and child would hopefully be alive ;-)
    Gillig,
    here below a video showing my Amberjack/Sickleback Swampscott Dory 16 feet (Design Iain Oughtred) i have built, hauling my Grandson (he sails with a "Pyson´s Pirogue" I built for him) with electric motor sitting on a well I have cut into the Dory. Boat is quite tippy, two adults staying on the gunwales will flip it over easily. Daggerboard would stabilize in the initial phase of inclination, but not hinder tipping over.



    My Dory (I have built it 10 years ago and sold it 2 years ago) is a nice boat, but as mentioned by others in this forum, You will not be able to do the things You intend (halibut....) in an 16 feet Dory. By the way I would recommend for the Amberjack only two adult passengers as a maximum, may be in addition with a small child.

    Regards from Austria (no halibuts here ;-)
    Hay mas tiempo que vida!

  10. #45
    Join Date
    Jun 2003
    Location
    Central Coast, Ca
    Posts
    29,077

    Default Re: The ubiquitous "Banks Dory"...size really does matter.

    Ian's dory's may be the best

  11. #46
    Join Date
    Jun 2003
    Location
    Central Coast, Ca
    Posts
    29,077

    Default Re: The ubiquitous "Banks Dory"...size really does matter.

    I was impressed with how well it sailed, which you rarely see in a dory

  12. #47
    Join Date
    Dec 2012
    Posts
    128

    Default Re: The ubiquitous "Banks Dory"...size really does matter.

    Short video of a 20' Banks dory...with outboard in a well.


  13. #48
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Location
    Port Townsend WA
    Posts
    14,462

    Default Re: The ubiquitous "Banks Dory"...size really does matter.

    I'm going to toss my hat in here as I have both owned and designed a few dories that are of the Grand Banks style. One that I owned was eighteen feet in length over all that was converted from a traditional New England boat. It was best when rowed standing up and facing forward. I once cruised it around the Channel islands of California. I can't say that I enjoyed it all that much as the boat needed gear and ballast to stabilize her motion and steerage at sea. "Gus" was miserably slow under sail and so was much less than efficient going to weather. The boat was best when rowed rather than sailed! I will state here that this hull form must be heavily ballasted to be stable!
    I once designed a dory for John Pearson who was a seasoned sailer in commercial square rig and was a crew member on one of the last grain ships that went around the Horn and came up to San Francisco.
    John wanted a dory that he could row standing up and also sail to cruise down the California coast. I did increase the water line beam to afford a bit more stability and gave the Bottom a bit more fore and aft rocker to increase her sailing ability on a close reach and allow the boat to be beached more easily in a surf line as John camped on shore at night. Even so, I must say that I would not wish to own or bestow a Banks dory of traditional form on anyone, who plans to go cruising as the hull needs to be loaded down with fish to gain stability and then it becomes a dog under sail! An outboard in a well can stink up the boat due to the high wall sided top sides and will leave every one aboard coughing and uncomfortable when moving down wind!
    Thats my story and I am sticking to it! I should think Ian's electric sail is better than a gas powered out board by a long shot!
    Jay
    Last edited by Jay Greer; 08-11-2020 at 02:51 PM.

  14. #49
    Join Date
    Jun 2003
    Location
    Central Coast, Ca
    Posts
    29,077

    Default Re: The ubiquitous "Banks Dory"...size really does matter.

    And the most demanding consideration was they be quickly stacked and stored.
    All other considerations came after that.
    Mens lives were cheap, excellent seamen they were, but they went missing.
    Swampscott Dory is a completely different boat

  15. #50
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    East Quogue,NY
    Posts
    20,703

    Default Re: The ubiquitous "Banks Dory"...size really does matter.

    And the most demanding consideration was they be quickly stacked and stored
    Yes. One might argue that being cheap and easily built was first. But, yes, seakindliness and ease of use were long down on the list of priorities.

    Kevin
    There are two kinds of boaters: those who have run aground, and those who lie about it.

  16. #51
    Join Date
    Jan 2000
    Location
    Cushing, Maine
    Posts
    3,972

    Default Re: The ubiquitous "Banks Dory"...size really does matter.

    Good way to check a Banks dory speed is look at the results of the Blackburn. Stability light is interesting. When we did dory races at Mystic, with a 180 turn, hot shot rowers would show up. Set off at a huge pace then at the turn heel the boat over enough to dump them out. The dory just tipped back up, barely took on water. The way these boats fished rowing speed wasn't important. Dories were set out as the schooner sailed up wind, then the schooner jogged back down to pick them up. They were never light. A couple of tubs of trawl, water keg etc. All stowed low. My narrow bottom straight sided semi Swampscott feels like a diferet boat when you drop 50 pounds into the bottom. Set up like that, not pressed or pushed they are actually pretty sea kindly, kind of like one of those old weighted punching bags I had as a kid. Hit it as hard as you can and she'd come up right. Winter swells off Camden, as long as you dance with the sea you are just fine.

  17. #52
    Join Date
    Dec 2012
    Posts
    128

    Default Re: The ubiquitous "Banks Dory"...size really does matter.

    I think there are many reasons why a wooden boatbuilder will settle on a design...then, take a deep breath...let it out...and say, "O.K...time to cut wood." Wooden boats being critiqued for characteristics like speed, efficiency, seaworthiness. Hmmm. Don't we build wooden boats because they are beautiful, unique, salty, melt-back-to-earth environmentally friendly?
    John Gardner calls the Banks Dory "cranky." He was apparently a bit of a snob and preferred those rounded types...Swampscott, Surf, Beachcombing, Alpha, Gunning, Semi this, Semi that...
    O.K...obviously joking here...sorry.

    It makes me feel good to be building a boat from scratch...starting with John Gardner's efforts.
    From my perspective, the valid point in this thread is that damn, stinky, polluting motor well.
    I hate it!!
    But, I need it.

    My John Gardner stretched (20' to 22') Banks dory might just go electric.

  18. #53
    Join Date
    Jun 2003
    Location
    Central Coast, Ca
    Posts
    29,077

    Default Re: The ubiquitous "Banks Dory"...size really does matter.

    If you use a diesel inboard, it will double as a 400 lb halibut.
    And it will be low and near the center of bouyancy.

  19. #54
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Location
    Salt Spring Island, BC
    Posts
    7,439

    Default Re: The ubiquitous "Banks Dory"...size really does matter.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gillig View Post
    I think there are many reasons why a wooden boatbuilder will settle on a design...then, take a deep breath...let it out...and say, "O.K...time to cut wood." Wooden boats being critiqued for characteristics like speed, efficiency, seaworthiness. Hmmm. Don't we build wooden boats because they are beautiful, unique, salty, melt-back-to-earth environmentally friendly?
    John Gardner calls the Banks Dory "cranky." He was apparently a bit of a snob and preferred those rounded types...Swampscott, Surf, Beachcombing, Alpha, Gunning, Semi this, Semi that...
    O.K...obviously joking here...sorry.

    It makes me feel good to be building a boat from scratch...starting with John Gardner's efforts.
    From my perspective, the valid point in this thread is that damn, stinky, polluting motor well.
    I hate it!!
    But, I need it.

    My John Gardner stretched (20' to 22') Banks dory might just go electric.
    Yes you do if you plan to beach the boat, and it's not nearly the curse that some would have you think.

  20. #55
    Join Date
    Jul 2000
    Location
    N.E. Connecticut.
    Posts
    6,855

    Default Re: The ubiquitous "Banks Dory"...size really does matter.

    the dory I had pretty much lived up to all the expectations listed above. Tender as anything when empty, put some weight in her and solid as a rock. I enjoyed rowing her and she sailed pretty decently. Comfortable (?).... I wouldn't say so for more than two.



  21. #56
    Join Date
    Dec 2012
    Posts
    128

    Default Re: The ubiquitous "Banks Dory"...size really does matter.

    Quote Originally Posted by nedL View Post
    the dory I had pretty much lived up to all the expectations listed above. Tender as anything when empty, put some weight in her and solid as a rock. I enjoyed rowing her and she sailed pretty decently. Comfortable (?).... I wouldn't say so for more than two.
    nedL, I admire your courage with all that sail area!

    The dory I am working on now will be about the same size as what you see in the picture below. I have no idea what that contraption is hovering above the outboard. Lifting mechanism of some kind? The picture is from The Dory Shop website. This one is 22' 2" x 6' 5". I think the basic form of the Banks dory really accentuates the gravity of how "size matters"...as you work your way up from 15' LOA to 22' LOA.


  22. #57
    Join Date
    Dec 2012
    Posts
    128

    Default Re: The ubiquitous "Banks Dory"...size really does matter.

    TerryLL, I think it is absolutely amazing that you sailed this Cape Ann dory from Seattle to Sitka. What a stunning achievement. I have enjoyed following the R2AK (Race to Alaska) event, and am at awe with the skill required to navigate those tidal currents north of Campbell River between Vancouver Island and the mainland. Did I read that someone sailed a Cape Ann dory from Gloucester to Liverpool...(might be mistaken about this).
    I've also enjoyed reading about your reflections on your dory's sea-kindliness. Especially in following seas...a subject that has special meaning to me...(aka bad experience). The cut-away forefoot, no keel to trip on etc.
    My nautical pursuits are embarrassingly tame compared to your experiences. I am probably building too much dory...just planning on putt-putting around, fishing, and retrieving kids out of the water. I might choose to go with tiller lines , for remote rudder steering...forward of the stinky power well.

  23. #58
    Join Date
    Dec 2012
    Posts
    128

    Default Re: The ubiquitous "Banks Dory"...size really does matter.

    Quote Originally Posted by koederfischgriller View Post
    Hi,

    definitely true for a "true" banks dory.But how about the Coast Guard Dory, which seems to be modified for general purpose use?
    My apologies to koederfischgriller for missing this earlier post from a couple of weeks ago.

    Yes, there are two separate "longer" Bank dories shown in the Dory Book. Comments below are taken from John Gardner's book...paraphrased, but hopefully not taken out of context.

    1. 20' LOA "Fishing Dory"...redrawn by John Gardner in 1977 from the old 1884 Portsmouth Navy Yard dory plans. This boat is described as..."very deep to carry enormous loads of fish. Such deep models in a light condition are cranky and hard to handle. One would not want one of larger size."

    2. 19' 5" LOA Fisherman's Dory by Hiram Lowell & Sons for the U.S. Coast Guard, 1944. "This dory is shallower and the sides have greater flare. All in all resulting in a boat much better suited for general use. It is probably the best Bank dory model ever worked out. It is less heavy and clumsy than the old fishing models. It was extremely popular with the Mitscher's crew. It is never idle when in port...the men waiting to use it for fishing, swimming, skin diving, or just plain rowing. Altogether, the Coast Guard dory is a sharper, slimmer boat in the water. It would be quite easy to make the 19' 5" dory a few feet longer."
    (paraphrased commentary from The Dory Book).

    Unfortunately, the table of offsets in the Dory Book is for the dory #1 (above)...not dory #2.

    There is however, enough info on the two sheet drawing for dory #2. You have to hunt for the vital measurements and use a batten to find the rest. I stretched the 19'5" dory 15% proportionately throughout the full length to get a 22' 4" beauty. The rake of the stem and transom magically fell to a very pleasing shape. I made my own table of offsets for the new 22 footer...but, this was done at a scale of 1 1/2" = 1 foot. I will draw again at larger scale to double check offsets and will post a picture here with the offsets.

  24. #59
    Join Date
    Aug 2014
    Location
    Bavaria, Germany
    Posts
    120

    Default Re: The ubiquitous "Banks Dory"...size really does matter.

    Hi,

    We should accept that for us "Dory romantics" there is no hope ...
    but on the other hand I was also a hopeless "Vespa romantic" ... and now, after I have driven real motorbikes, I would no longer touch such a device with the crusher ..

    I would be very interested in your stretched 22´4" beauty

  25. #60
    Join Date
    Dec 2012
    Posts
    128

    Default Re: The ubiquitous "Banks Dory"...size really does matter.

    Quote Originally Posted by koederfischgriller View Post
    We should accept that for us "Dory romantics" there is no hope...
    I confess to being a hopeless dory romantic and fanatic. I also love Vespas. My cell phone will not work until I flip it open. I then have to raise the three inch wire antenna. When I consider all the logical reasons to hate a Banks dory, they all make sense to me. I am left with no choice but to return to the fact that my hopeless romantic fanaticism will be the only real thing needed to see the project through to completion. An oxymoron...I suppose.

  26. #61
    Join Date
    Aug 2014
    Location
    Bavaria, Germany
    Posts
    120

    Default Re: The ubiquitous "Banks Dory"...size really does matter.

    I was not interested in Dories at all ... until Louis Sauzedde triggered me with his total boat sports Dory

  27. #62
    Join Date
    Sep 2003
    Location
    Brunswick, Maine
    Posts
    1,790

    Default Re: The ubiquitous "Banks Dory"...size really does matter.

    The summer of 1960 I was allowed the free use of a little round-sided dory skiff built by Lowell's boat shop in Amesbury, Mass. It was a straight rowing boat based on the Swampscott model, like a Chamberlain or Chaisson skiff. I could take it out whenever I liked, so long as I brought a seat cushion as a life preserver and I told someone where I was going. The skiff had no name; we just called it "the dory". That was the start of my fascination with traditional wooden boats that continues to this day.

  28. #63
    Join Date
    Dec 2012
    Posts
    128

    Default Re: The ubiquitous "Banks Dory"...size really does matter.

    5 minutes into this video...some sweet Banks dory old-timey footage...


  29. #64
    Join Date
    Nov 2014
    Location
    Seattle, WA
    Posts
    4,671

    Default Re: The ubiquitous "Banks Dory"...size really does matter.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rob Hazard View Post
    The summer of 1960 I was allowed the free use of a little round-sided dory skiff built by Lowell's boat shop in Amesbury, Mass. It was a straight rowing boat based on the Swampscott model, like a Chamberlain or Chaisson skiff. I could take it out whenever I liked, so long as I brought a seat cushion as a life preserver and I told someone where I was going. The skiff had no name; we just called it "the dory". That was the start of my fascination with traditional wooden boats that continues to this day.
    Ah - the Amesbury Skiff! Lovely, unpretentious, sweet rowing boats they are. I have fond memories of one myself as I got my start rowing my mother's Amesbury Skiff in the early 1980s. I spent many hours on the water in it as a boy. I wish it was still in the family but it was donated to the Center for Wooden Boats in Seattle when we moved to Baltimore, and was eventually sold out of the livery.
    - Chris

    Life is short. Go boating now!

  30. #65
    Join Date
    Sep 2003
    Location
    Brunswick, Maine
    Posts
    1,790

    Default Re: The ubiquitous "Banks Dory"...size really does matter.

    Gillig, the movie you posted makes a couple points.

    At the beginning of the dory segment you can see 5 dories compactly stacked on deck in the footprint of one boat. I can't think of any other boat you can do that with. That is THE key element of the banks dory design. It allows one schooner to carry a dozen dories or more out to the fishing grounds, so they can spread out and fill the ship with fish faster and get to market sooner.

    Fishing schooners are generally regarded as being among the most graceful of shapes from the age of sail, but the main reason for their lovely sweeping sheerlines was to allow the dory men to pitch their daily catch up on deck by hand before hoisting their dory aboard to get out of the way of the next dory. The schooner and its dories were parts of a highly evolved system for harvesting fish by hook and line. As soon as reliable engines became available that highly evolved system faded into obsolescence.

    But it all looks very romantic from a century's distance!

  31. #66
    Join Date
    Dec 2012
    Posts
    128

    Default Re: The ubiquitous "Banks Dory"...size really does matter.

    Good points all around Rob. Thanks!
    One more old video to share...then it's back to the shop for me. This one is pretty exciting, but ends badly for one dory owner. According to the commentator the dories cost $500 each...back in 1966.


Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •