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Thread: The ubiquitous "Banks Dory"...size really does matter.

  1. #1
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    Default The ubiquitous "Banks Dory"...size really does matter.

    Re-reading "The Dory Book"...

    At what overall length does this historic and legendary hull form become comfortable for four adults and a 5 hp outboard...in a well.

    15', 18', 20'
    ???



  2. #2
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    Default Re: The ubiquitous "Banks Dory"...size really does matter.

    Dorys make pretty good low powered boat, but it might be a stretch to call one "comfortable"
    Years ago I built a 21 foot banks dory with an 8 hp yanmar. It was and is a good and safe boat, and will comfortably seat 4, but you want them sitting on the floorboards like dead halibut.
    See: Atkin designs, Pemaquid.
    I ran it for a few years with the designed keel and ballast until it tripped and half swamped at a big bar crossing. I then removed those and mounted an inboard rudder and skeg. Much better!

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    Default Re: The ubiquitous "Banks Dory"...size really does matter.

    As far as I can tell, banks dories were ubiquitous in the cod fishing fleets of the late 19th and early 20th centuries for 2 key reasons: they were cheap to build, and they could be stacked like Dixie cups on the deck of a schooner. All other aspects of their design were compromised to meet those 2 requirements. If you're looking for a motorboat to carry 4 people, you can do way better than copying a banks dory. Gardner's book contains several more suitable hulls for your purpose.

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    Default Re: The ubiquitous "Banks Dory"...size really does matter.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rob Hazard View Post
    As far as I can tell, banks dories were ubiquitous in the cod fishing fleets of the late 19th and early 20th centuries for 2 key reasons: they were cheap to build, and they could be stacked like Dixie cups on the deck of a schooner. All other aspects of their design were compromised to meet those 2 requirements. If you're looking for a motorboat to carry 4 people, you can do way better than copying a banks dory. Gardner's book contains several more suitable hulls for your purpose.
    Add stability to that list, but only after they are filled with half a ton of dead cod or halibut, as mentioned above. The idea that they must be a great boat for modern-day use because they have been around so long and they made so many of them is much like saying that a Model T must be a great performing and handling motorcar for the modern world for the same reasons. They are a great boat - for their purpose.
    Hope for the best, but plan for the worst.

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    Default Re: The ubiquitous "Banks Dory"...size really does matter.

    Hi,

    definitely true for a "true" banks dory.But how about the Coast Guard Dory, which seems to be modified for general purpose use?
    Last edited by koederfischgriller; 08-01-2020 at 10:24 AM.

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    Default Re: The ubiquitous "Banks Dory"...size really does matter.

    Whose Coast Guard? I have not heard of a dory type called a "Coast Guard Dory"; can you post a pic or give a link?
    Hope for the best, but plan for the worst.

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    Default Re: The ubiquitous "Banks Dory"...size really does matter.

    Sorry,

    i ment the one on page 145/146 in the dory book. gardner calls it the Lowell Coast Guard 15' Fisherman dory.

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    Default Re: The ubiquitous "Banks Dory"...size really does matter.

    I've seen a bunch of dory-style hulls built and used.

    And I agree that the Banks Dory was a great example of 'horses for courses'. Built to a purpose, not for general overall utility. One thing not mentioned so far with the type is 'tiddly when empty'... which is the flip side of solid as a rock when full with a great capacity for their size.

    There are a bunch of 'modified dory' hulls out there that aim to moderate the weaknesses and expand the overall utility. Lots that do a good job. I like Michael's Model-T analogy.
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    Default Re: The ubiquitous "Banks Dory"...size really does matter.

    Tiddly is an understatement
    It is Frikkin' terrifying, to the uninitiated.

    Edit: When laying sideways anchored to the ocean swells the "Tippy dory" phenomenon can be an advantage.

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    Default Re: The ubiquitous "Banks Dory"...size really does matter.

    Many years ago, one evening I met Sam Manning and his girlfriend at a dock on the Five Mile River, Rowayton, Connecticut. Sam asked me if I would like to row his Banks Dory. I think he had just finished it. I said yes and rowed it, tholl (sp?) pins and all, down to the mouth of the river and back with Sam in the stern and the girlfriend up forward. It rowed well. Later I saw him sailing it a bit off shore. It was rigged with two short masts with leg-o-mutton sails. It was laying over on its ear in a light wind and not doing much. I heard that he sailed and rowed it from there to Maine. That says a lot more for Sam than the Banks Dory.

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    Default Re: The ubiquitous "Banks Dory"...size really does matter.

    My grandson is about the same size as a large halibut. When he inevitably falls (or jumps) overboard, I would think it advantageous to be able to bring the gunwale right down to the surface so that he could be flipped back into the boat. This is the trick I want to pull off...but, with two other adults onboard.

    Size matters here. In a perfect world, I would have access to...and be able to inspect and test a range of Banks Dorys...15', 17', 19', 21'???

    There must be a sweet spot in here. What do you think is the smallest (L.O.A...not bottom length) that will be able to pull off "the trick."?

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    Default Re: The ubiquitous "Banks Dory"...size really does matter.

    I think you have your boat-acquisition process the wrong way around.

    I suggest you go back to defining your needs and wants very carefully, then go looking for a boat design that will meet those. Based on the limited information you provided in your initial post, I doubt that a dory would top the list.
    Alex

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    Default Re: The ubiquitous "Banks Dory"...size really does matter.

    You're right. I should be more clear.
    O.K...here goes.
    I want to build a Banks dory. Now that narrows it down quite a bit.
    (see subject line of this thread)
    No sailing. 5 hp outboard in a well. Ability to row when motor craps out.
    Short distances to fishing, putt putting around, kids can swim off it.
    Looks salty as hell on my mooring and will some day melt back into the ground as yard art in front of an old surf and turf restaurant on the Oregon coast.

    I will probably use the lines and offsets from The Dory Book by John Gardner.
    Three to choose from...15', 18', or 20' L.O.A.
    I am interested in the subtle variations from the many designers who have drawn a Banks dory type hull.
    Oughted drew two at 15' 3" length (why two the same size?...hmmm)
    Devlin has an odd looking 19' sailing slab sided dory...but not thrilled with stitch and glue anymore.
    Jeff Spira has one pictured below that might be right. Imagine an outboard motor in a well where that dog is sitting ;-).


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    Default Re: The ubiquitous "Banks Dory"...size really does matter.

    Look at that photo and imagine being a kid in the water trying to climb back into it.

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    Default Re: The ubiquitous "Banks Dory"...size really does matter.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rob Hazard View Post
    Look at that photo and imagine being a kid in the water trying to climb back into it.
    Yes, I agree. A bit boxy and clumsy looking too.
    Like I said earlier...trying to find the sweet spot in regards to size/scale for my upcoming Banks dory build.
    The lines of the 20 footer in The Dory Book are quite nice.

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    Default Re: The ubiquitous "Banks Dory"...size really does matter.

    That rail will go right down to the water when the kid grabs onto it, guaranteed...

    I worked in shop that Banks dory's were the stock in trade. To turn one into a "yacht" old Bill did a few things.
    He narrowed the bottom to make it a better rowboat unladen, he added a subtle curve to the sides, and spent a bit of time on the sheer line and stem profile.
    An 18'oa dory can be a good boat for two people. I know two men that rowed an Ĉolus dory from Monterey to Juneau... Tough guys really, coming onto the beach at dusk and putting off in the morning. They were pretty much done with rowing after that trip.

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    Default Re: The ubiquitous "Banks Dory"...size really does matter.

    Visiting the lagoons of Venice this year, I saw several wooden boats from the "Sanpierota"-type. This type of boat falls into the category of the "Sandalo"-type-family.

    Probably those flat bottom boats from "Good old Europe" in Venice (with their other roots also from the Portuguese fishermen) are the ancestors of the "American Dory"-family. Today this boats are often used with an outboard which is sitting in a transom-well. The boats I saw had outboard-motors in the range of 5 to 8 hp.
    Length: 6.3 meter (20.7 feet), Width 2.0 meter (6.6 feet).
    'The motor-well on those traditional-style boats, the Outboard can be inclined in two position to allow outboard running in shallow waters and beaching and due to little draft this boats are very useful.

    Boats of Venice where traditionally rowed in standing position (similar to the well known Gondolas of Venice). Therefore rowing is also an option on those boats today (Motor kicked up).

    Therefore my proposal to Gillig´s question about length: I would go for a 20 feet banks-dory as you will need the bigger transom-zone to be able to build a transom-motor-well (for 5 hp Outboard). 20 feet I would recommend if you want to go with four adults in comfort (and safely). See pictures below, which I took 14 days ago:

    a.jpg

    b.jpg

    c.jpg
    Hay mas tiempo que vida!

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    Default Re: The ubiquitous "Banks Dory"...size really does matter.

    Great pictures above! "Sanpierota"-type...very interesting.

    Another approach to outboard well can be seen here on a 20' Banks dory.


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    Default Re: The ubiquitous "Banks Dory"...size really does matter.

    A friend and I built a straight sided working dory 21" long. It was very close to the Banks version but may have had a bit more sheer.

    We had a well to accommodate a 10 HP Honda which was just right since it was strip built with 3/4" cedar sides and 1 1/4" Doug Fir bottom over 1 1/2" yellow cedar frames, in other words it was heavy, and we hauled mountains of cedar shakes made on the beaches and good sized loads of rock. It was also good for fishing and picnicking in the Gulf Islands.

    So...I know something about wells in dories.

    It will need to be long enough to tilt the leg all the way up for beaching. You will do that from time to time.

    It will need to be wide enough aft that the prop will fit in the well when tilted all the way up. The one in the photo above won't allow that. It will still need to be narrower aft though since it is going to plow something wicked so the more narrow the better. You can beat the plowing by adding what I call a baffle which is a tapered piece of plywood that slopes upward starting flush with the bottom at the aft end of the well. It should be as long as possible and should tilt about 30 degrees up from level. If you make it just short of hitting the after wall of the well it can sit on 2 cleats/ledgers on the sides of the well. You'll just drop it in and give it a solid tap aft with the heel of your hand and it will jam into place (if it's a good fit). Somewhat surprisingly it will stay in place come what may, we never had it come loose. Attach a lanyard to it and fasten the lanyard to something so you don't lose it if you drop it and also so you'll have something to jerk it out with.

    This baffle will serve another important purpose as well. Since you'll have a bloody big hole in the bottom of the hull and also because the bottom is so narrow aft it will squat when under power. The baffle will give it enough lift to level it out.

    The well will need to be high enough that water won't come in over the top edges. It won't plane so the water level in the well will be pretty much the same as the height of the wave closest to it, especially loaded. Get a long or extra long shaft outboard and make the entire well as high as you can and still have the cavitation plate even with the bottom. The well in the photo above is going to allow a lot of blue water in .

    And as for length, that big well and it's tendency to raise the waterline, especially aft, requires a longer hull to compensate. You'll want to stretch all of the longitudinal offsets/measurements by 5 or 10 percent to 21 or 22 feet LOA. That will look a little more sleek too.

    As described I wouldn't hesitate to take it from Oregon to Alaska.
    Last edited by Gib Etheridge; 08-03-2020 at 12:18 AM.

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    Default Re: The ubiquitous "Banks Dory"...size really does matter.

    Also, I built a chine log into it, about 1" by 2" on the flat as I remember it. The chine is a good place to have enough wood to fasten and caulk (291) to. Fastening the side planks to the bottom planks will leave you vulnerable to leaks and split planking.
    Last edited by Gib Etheridge; 08-03-2020 at 12:18 AM.

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    Default Re: The ubiquitous "Banks Dory"...size really does matter.

    Thank you Gib Etheridge. I've spent a lot of time thinking about, and stewing about proper outboard well construction. This summary based on your experience is very valuable and appreciated. I just printed it out...two copies. One goes into The Dory Book as a bookmark, the other is now under my mattress for safe keeping. Thank you sir!!

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    Default Re: The ubiquitous "Banks Dory"...size really does matter.

    You're welcome gilliG. Sleep "well".

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    Default Re: The ubiquitous "Banks Dory"...size really does matter.

    You want a Bank Dory, no matter what we all say -- which is fine.

    Several of your requirements are conflicting -- meaning to meet one you won't have the other(s). The decision of what boat to build is yours and you'll discover what we're talking about later, which is also fine.

    I strongly recommend against modifying whatever plan you pick, as the Bank dory can be made horrifyingly unstable just by narrowing the bottom plank, which also narrows the beam. I know this because I restored one that couldn't be rowed without 300lbs of wet sand bags in the bottom -- all due to messing with Gardner's design "to make it faster" (by someone else).

    Assuming you're serious about both the size of the crew and the ability to row, there are a few boats that meet your specs, with the Oughtred Ness Yawl (no sailing rig) being one, and his St. Ayles Rowing Skiff another. A small outboard in a well will work with both. http://www.oughtredboats.com/

    You mention the Oregon coast, and I'm assuming you need a design to use for ocean fishing from some harbors, so you need something that can handle a bit of swell and wind. There are a number of big power dories used in that area, but all will be decked and none can be rowed for more than a short distance even in calm waters.
    Last edited by Thorne; 08-03-2020 at 12:52 AM.
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    Default Re: The ubiquitous "Banks Dory"...size really does matter.

    Gib's advice is good. What you are looking at is more like what we might call a seine dory, with a relatively wide bottom, and straighter sides than the banks style dory. The seine dory is pretty stable, walk around standards.
    Ben Fuller
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    Default Re: The ubiquitous "Banks Dory"...size really does matter.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ben Fuller View Post
    Gib's advice is good. What you are looking at is more like what we might call a seine dory, with a relatively wide bottom, and straighter sides than the banks style dory. The seine dory is pretty stable, walk around standards.
    Ben, your insight here is much appreciated and led me to a gold mine with a google search of "Seine Dory."
    Somehow The Dory Shop website had escaped me.
    Great pictures that really reveal that "size matters" when trying to match boat length to your intended use.

    A run down in the sizes offered...with that "Seine Dory" topping the list at 25' 9".

    http://www.doryshop.com

    Little Sister 11’ 3”
    Black Rocks Dory 14’ 8”
    Handline 17’
    Bastard 18’ 4”
    Trawl 19’ 9”
    Fishmaker 21 1”
    Fortune Bay 22’ 2”
    Seine 25’ 9”

    The Seine dory is quite the ship...





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    Default Re: The ubiquitous "Banks Dory"...size really does matter.

    For what you want the ones that are about 20 would do. These dories carried herring seines and often had 4 or 5 people in them pulling net. And I have seen pics when there were two people in them, about 6" of freeboard full of herring. Point that I made earlier is that the sides are a little more vertical and bottoms wider.
    Ben Fuller
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  27. #27
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    Default Re: The ubiquitous "Banks Dory"...size really does matter.

    Do please note that the traditional measure of a dory was the length of the bottom, not LOA. This can lead to confusion. When looking at dory designs and dreaming, keep this in mind.
    Hope for the best, but plan for the worst.

  28. #28
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    Default Re: The ubiquitous "Banks Dory"...size really does matter.

    Try googling 'outboard lifting brackets and pads'. The come in various sizes. They make it possible to have a much shorter well as the motor goes up. There is some fore and aft movement as the unit is lifted but not too much. One friend made a well with such a bracket but found getting the lift started hard until he modified the handle end of his gaff to stick down the front end of the motor and use as a lever.

    There are also sliding brackets if you've go something really light like 1.5 hp.


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    Default Re: The ubiquitous "Banks Dory"...size really does matter.

    Good idea Ian, but will it lit far enough to get the prop above the bottom of the boat, and what about the plowing of the after bulkhead? If it does lift far enough I suppose the after bulkhead could be tilted forward at 30 degrees up from level, but that might require a longer hole in the bottom of the well than what I suggested.

  30. #30
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    Default Re: The ubiquitous "Banks Dory"...size really does matter.

    Might be worth looking at the motor well design for the double-ended Bartender. Similar challenges there and the design has some interesting solutions, including a wider area at the top for the head to swivel while keeping the hole smaller, and a plug which - if I understand it correctly - works rather like Gib's baffle to keep water from entering the well while underway but lifts up to allow the motor to tilt.
    - Chris

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    Default Re: The ubiquitous "Banks Dory"...size really does matter.

    There are two kinds of boaters: those who have run aground, and those who lie about it.

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    Default Re: The ubiquitous "Banks Dory"...size really does matter.

    I lofted that Chapelle Cape Ann dory, and gave it up as too much fairing work. Finally went with Atkin's 21 foot Pemaquid instead.
    An 8 hp Yanmar inboard, I used to take it Salmon trolling up the Coast from Santa Cruz to Half Moon Bay (back when there were fish). When the afternoon westerly came up (20-25 kts, 15 foot swells) we would get all the gear in, set the sail and have a sleigh-ride back to SC - Hoo-Rah. Used to hate to turn into the Monterey Bay, all calm in there.

  33. #33
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    Default Re: The ubiquitous "Banks Dory"...size really does matter.

    Quote Originally Posted by Canoeyawl View Post
    I lofted that Chapelle Cape Ann dory, and gave it up as too much fairing work. Finally went with Atkin's 21 foot Pemaquid instead.
    An 8 hp Yanmar inboard, I used to take it Salmon trolling up the Coast from Santa Cruz to Half Moon Bay (back when there were fish). When the afternoon westerly came up (20-25 kts, 15 foot swells) we would get all the gear in, set the sail and have a sleigh-ride back to SC - Hoo-Rah. Used to hate to turn into the Monterey Bay, all calm in there.
    Speaking of inboards...why am I so afraid of this option? I think it is mostly due to my own lack of experience. The inboard diesel option would solve many problems, possibly create new ones. I feel like I would have to take classes at a junior college somewhere before feeling ready to install and maintain one. Maybe that is exactly what I should do.

    Random thought...we have electric cars...why not switch out the weight of dead halibut for the weight of batteries. "Tesla of the sea."

  34. #34
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    Default Re: The ubiquitous "Banks Dory"...size really does matter.

    Quote Originally Posted by TerryLL View Post
    Hmm.
    Chapelle gives the offsets in ASSC. I widened the bottom and increased the beam about 6 inches each. Lofting a banks dory is about as simple as it gets. Frame and bottom bevels were not an issue. The bottom and side planking went on with nary a bulge or valley. Zero fairing needed after planking.
    I've got three sheets of ply (24') set up with new white paint. Lofting now the 20' Banks dory in The Dory Book. Super simple offsets. Stem, five stations/frames, transom. That's it. I want to add 6" to spacing between frames to make a 22' longer and leaner dory. I am not stretching the transom or stem to frame spacing. Not changing beam. Longer, leaner must always be better. Fingers crossed.

  35. #35
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    Default Re: The ubiquitous "Banks Dory"...size really does matter.

    22' will be a 10% increase. By not increasing all of the longitudinal measurements by 10% each you can get a funny shape sometimes.

    By just adding distance between the frames and not between the sheer at the stem and the frame closest to the stem the sheer in the plan (top) view will have a bit of a kink in it at that frame. The bend will change suddenly making the sheer a bit more blunt. Not nice.

    People do this often enough, but to my way of thinking it's a bit odd.

    Think about that. Then think about how adding the 10% throughout will give the stem and transom a little more rake. That will look better.

    Do you see what I mean? If not try drawing it up to scale, top view and side view,both ways on paper. It's such a simple lofting that that won't be too difficult. You may find that you want to change your approach.
    Last edited by Gib Etheridge; 08-04-2020 at 02:47 AM.

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