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Thread: Newbie needs help with small DIY sail plan, trimaran setup.

  1. #421
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    Default Re: Newbie needs help with small DIY sail plan, trimaran setup.

    Here are some pics of my seat idea. I figured I would just build some I-beams out of cedar, maybe wrap some glass around them for strength, and cut a form to follow the contour of the deck. What do you guys think?

    20210918_222247.jpg

    20210918_222313.jpg
    20210918_222404.jpg
    20210918_222434.jpg
    “If everybody is thinking alike, then somebody isn’t thinking.”
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  2. #422
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    Default Re: Newbie needs help with small DIY sail plan, trimaran setup.

    Looks good as it is.
    Why make an I-beam?

    Your aka is plenty strong to take the load of your behind. But the deck under it might not be.
    Is there a bulkhead under the back rim of the cockpit? Wait I see one in the picture. You have plenty of strength.

    Actually you can test it easily, by just sitting in the seat where you show it. Or just on the aka.

    If you must have an I-beam, where would you put it? Wait again, I assume you mean on the aft support of the seat.

    You might want to think about how much the stern will sink with you sitting there.
    Are you going to drive it underwater?

    Why do you want the seat there?
    Normally if you want to make the boat more stable with a heavier wind, you would put a seat on each side of the cockpit. That will better keep the wind from driving the leeward ama underwater, allowing you to sail in a higher wind.

  3. #423
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    Default Re: Newbie needs help with small DIY sail plan, trimaran setup.

    Quote Originally Posted by upchurchmr View Post
    Actually you can test it easily, by just sitting in the seat where you show it. Or just on the aka.
    Yep, I did that. It is super comfy. Way better than sitting on just the aka like I had been doing.

    Quote Originally Posted by upchurchmr View Post
    Are you going to drive it underwater?
    Nope, I was sitting on the aka, aft of the aka really, and leaning forward. Made my herniated disc scream because my knees were up, putting max pressure on my spine. But the stern didn't sink below the sheer line.

    Quote Originally Posted by upchurchmr View Post
    Why do you want the seat there?
    ...That will better keep the wind from driving the leeward ama underwater, allowing you to sail in a higher wind.
    So when I was sitting on the deck/aka before, I would just lean to the left or right put one hand out on the aka, and steer with the other, to keep from capsizing/burying the leeward ama. Just leaning, with the winds I have been out in so far(about 15knots max) was enough to keep things straight. I expect I may have to slide out of the seat and get on the aka if the wind gets up around 20 knots, but at that point I think I would be needing to reef, or get a trapeze?

    My physical therapist looked at pics of my boat and said I have GOT to get some back support when I get out of the cockpit, and also need some better seating inside the cockpit. So this is what I came up with. Going downwind, I plan to sit in the cockpit. Going upwind, depending on the the wind strength, I will sit up on the aka's in my new seat.

    I am going to build a sort of half box underneath it to support it, half on the aka, half on the deck. I will post pics when I have something glued up.
    “If everybody is thinking alike, then somebody isn’t thinking.”
    “You’re never beaten until you admit it.”
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  4. #424
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    Default Re: Newbie needs help with small DIY sail plan, trimaran setup.

    Already knowing your answers for a know-it-all's questions is kind of obnoxious.
    Well only to the know-it-all.

    Seat back makes sense to me since my back complains at some odd positions.
    Sounds good.

    When are you going to get someone else to take pictures when you are sailing?

  5. #425
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    Default Re: Newbie needs help with small DIY sail plan, trimaran setup.

    You crack me up upchurchmr. I didn't think you were being a know it all. I welcome anybody's questions. I enjoy sharing what I do, the ideas I come up with, the things I learn. One of my Army leaders once said, "the mark of a true leader is one who can replicate himself in others".

    As for the picture taking and video making, I need to get on that. I keep seeing videos on youtube and tik tok of people doing crazy things. Kind of hard to video or take pictures of yourself by yourself. I think I might tow my son out in his kayak saturday and give him the camera. If the wind is decent I will get him to catch me sailing by. I have a good friend who is deployed right now and he is a semi-pro photographer / videographer with drones and all that high dollar stuff. I will have to see what he can do when he gets back. But you make a good point. If I want to get my name out there and do this as a retirement income, I need some cool videos that kids will share and make my channel viral.

    So I glued together the frame/supports to go under the seat. I think maybe I did some overkill on them. But I didn't have any cedar boards thick enough that I thought would support my fat butt, so I made some boards out of 1.5" wide strips glued together. I am going to cut some fingers on the ends, and put them together in a finger joint, then stick it on the kayak and shape it to the deck contour. I made them extra tall so I had plenty of material to work with while shaping. After all the shaping is done, I will fiberglass and epoxy it. Still debating if I want it to be permanently attached, or make it removable. Here is what I have so far:

    20210921_181546.jpg

    20210921_181619.jpg
    Last edited by Lee.007; 09-21-2021 at 09:18 PM.
    “If everybody is thinking alike, then somebody isn’t thinking.”
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  6. #426
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    Default Re: Newbie needs help with small DIY sail plan, trimaran setup.

    This saved my back.

  7. #427
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    Default Re: Newbie needs help with small DIY sail plan, trimaran setup.

    Well, I went drifting today. No, wait, I went sailing today. Total bust. I did more drifting and paddling than I did sailing. I got on the water at 3pm EST cause the sailflow ap said it was supposed to be 3mph starting about 1pm, peak up to about 6mph around 4pm, and then die down to 3mph at 6pm. Well, no, it wasn't. Not even close. Windy and Windfinder said the same. I think there was maybe 20 minutes when the wind was more 2 knots. "Maybe it was just me not being able to find the wind", I thought as I drove home. Well, no again. I got on the NOAA website after I got home and checked the weather recorder station on the dam. I was right, there was about 20 to 40 minutes when it was about 4 knots. But other than that, dead calm the entire afternoon besides some gusts. I think the sailing aps may know a little about sailing, but they don't know jack about predicting winds.

    But the good news is, I finished my seat mount, and my back is a lot happier today than it has been on previous trips.
    “If everybody is thinking alike, then somebody isn’t thinking.”
    “You’re never beaten until you admit it.”
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  8. #428
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    Default Re: Newbie needs help with small DIY sail plan, trimaran setup.

    Ok, so, I get a 4 day weekend this week for Columbus day and I am taking leave next week too. Sailflow, Windy, and Windfinder all predict winds to be 8 and 9 mph Friday and Saturday afternoon. I am going to go sailing and see if all 3 weather aps will be wrong again. Hopefully, I get some good hard sailing in and will be able to show some nice video of the Misty Sunrise crashing thru waves. We'll see. To be continued...

    EDIT:Oh yeah, I will post pics of my seat set up. Its waaaaày better on my back.
    “If everybody is thinking alike, then somebody isn’t thinking.”
    “You’re never beaten until you admit it.”
    - General George Smith Patton

  9. #429
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    Default Re: Newbie needs help with small DIY sail plan, trimaran setup.

    Good luck, have fun.
    Any friends who could film while you sail by?

  10. #430
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    Default Re: Newbie needs help with small DIY sail plan, trimaran setup.

    I dunno if I will be able to get anybody out this weekend. I am going come hell or highwater. It is supposed to rain this weekend but I don't care. Rainy day sailing better than a sunny day working. But... most of my family and friends are fair weather sailors... I need to get me some of those gopro type waterproof action cameras. Or a tripod for my phone so I can set it up on the shore and then sail by while it is recording video. Those action cameras cost a war pension.
    “If everybody is thinking alike, then somebody isn’t thinking.”
    “You’re never beaten until you admit it.”
    - General George Smith Patton

  11. #431
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    Default Re: Newbie needs help with small DIY sail plan, trimaran setup.

    Don't break your pick.
    It would be nice, but there will be another time.

  12. #432
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    Default Re: Newbie needs help with small DIY sail plan, trimaran setup.

    Alright, so all my sail weather aps say good wind tomorrow. The lowest wind predicted is 5mph. Highest wind predicted is 9mph, and steady all day.. So, I am going sailing tomorrow. Lemme see if I can find me a decent action camera to get some good videos. Winds that high might give me some good waves. Hopefully the rain will stop by then! But I dont care if it doesn't. A sailor is a sailor evermore!!⛵ ⛵ ⛵
    “If everybody is thinking alike, then somebody isn’t thinking.”
    “You’re never beaten until you admit it.”
    - General George Smith Patton

  13. #433
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    Default Re: Newbie needs help with small DIY sail plan, trimaran setup.

    So I rigged up a fore stay. Just a 3/8" poly diamond braided rope from the head of mast down to the bow. I am also going to rig up a lazy jack. I'm tired of the boom falling loose from the mast when I douse the sail.

    Soooooo, I have this 30 square foot storm jib made of reinforced mylar. Looks like super extra heavy duty saran wrap with carbon fiber threads run through it in a checkerboard fashion. I am really wanting to run it up tomorrow and see if it helps during light winds. I have never run a jib before. Winds are forecast to be between 5 and 7 mph. Do you guys think I should try it, or just stay with what I know? And if you think I should try it, whats the best way to rig it?? If any of you are still up, let me know what you think. I will check back in the morning. I plan to leave here about 12pm EDT. Hopefully I will have some killer video to show!
    “If everybody is thinking alike, then somebody isn’t thinking.”
    “You’re never beaten until you admit it.”
    - General George Smith Patton

  14. #434
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    Default Re: Newbie needs help with small DIY sail plan, trimaran setup.

    Of course you need to try it. Ideally you could douse it from the cockpit.

    BTW, lazyjacks come in pairs and catch sail and boom. A topping lift is a single line to the end of the boom. This is all you need, just be sure to rig it so there's a bit of slack when the sail is set.
    -Dave

  15. #435
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    Default Re: Newbie needs help with small DIY sail plan, trimaran setup.

    Well Dave, its probably a good thing I did not have the jib today, I might have capsized in that rain squall! Wow. What a great day of sailing. Got on the water about 13:00 (1pm) and holy freaking smoking sailboats batman. Wind was blowing about 7 to 10 mph. Sailing club was out doing some races. I passed most of their boats on my way to the campground I was going to for lunch. Made it to the campground 4 miles away in about 50 min. I was averaging 6 mph on a beam reach. Then I went to a beach, had some lunch, and smoked past the little laser boats the sail club had out. I think maybe some of those guys were brand new students. They were hiking out on the leeward side of their lasers.... Then I turned to the east down by the dam and I got caught in a rain squall where I hit 8.5 mph!!!! That's about the fastest I have been in this boat, except for the first time out when I didn't know what I was doing and nearly lost my leeboard. Don't believe me? Here is the GPS Track. It records the route, average speed, and maximum speed. Scroll past the map to see my video from today: 8mph.jpg And here is the youtube video from today when I was going downwind to campsite 2. Sorry upchurchmr, I didn't have anybody catch me as I was sailing by. I need to get one of those remote control action cameras. It would have been awesome to record the video from the rainstorm where I hit 8.5 mph:
    Last edited by Lee.007; 10-10-2021 at 12:49 PM.
    “If everybody is thinking alike, then somebody isn’t thinking.”
    “You’re never beaten until you admit it.”
    - General George Smith Patton

  16. #436
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    Default Re: Newbie needs help with small DIY sail plan, trimaran setup.

    Looks good.
    Fun to fly by the lasers with the same sail area, I'll bet.

    One technique tip.
    If you are heading down wind, generally there is no need to have the leeboard down. You'd gain a bit of speed.

    You need it from a broad reach to a tack.

    A good day makes up for all the work doesn't it.

    Marc

  17. #437
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    Default Re: Newbie needs help with small DIY sail plan, trimaran setup.

    Yes indeed, it makes up for the days when I sit in the lake for an hour waiting for even a 1.5 mph breeze, and then end up paddling 2 miles back to the boat ramp. Oh, yeah, passing those little lasers was a huge ego boost. But I really think they just didn't know what they were doing. Surely they would have been screaming past me with all the wind we had. One of the club race officials came over in his outboard boat and said, "I know I am probably not the first person to tell you this, but that is one very cool boat. I have never seen a laser sail on a multi-hull before." More ego boost.

    You are right about the leeboard. I just left it down cause I was being lazy. After watching the video several times now, I notice my stern is really squatting a lot, and the rudder case/housing is dragging up a lot of water. I will work on raising the rudder case up another 4 to 6 inches at the end of the season. I have a lot of work planned for this baby during the winter. I am going to put another coat of epoxy on the hull and the amas. They all need a good sanding to get the scratches off. I might even put another layer of fiberglass on them too, now that I know where the rub areas are.

    Oh yeah, I am already looking at my next boat. Its going to be a 2 seat'er so the wife and adult kids can ride along. I really like the trimaran stability. But my amas need to have about twice the buoyncy so I can step on them to get into the boat from a dock without getting wet. If I can do that, I can do some winter sailing without getting hypothermia. I will also get sailrite to design me a sail. I am thinking at least 100 to 130 square feet. Maybe add a jib too.

    Oh, I forgot to add final pictures of my seat configuration. Let me caveat this with the fact that this will not be the final seat I use. I need something that goes out over the akas so I can hike out there when the wind gets up. I am designing a wide bench seat kind of deal, but that is months down the road. So this will do for now. I put some hold down clamps on the back to keep it still while I am hiking out on the amas. They are quick release so I can take the seat off during transport on the highway. Check it out:

    Here is the seat raised up:
    20211010_095514.jpg

    Seat lowered down In case I need to maneuver around:
    20211011_113230.jpg

    Here are the locking clamps I put on to secure it from the back, and keep it in place while I am hiked out on the amas:
    20211011_113254.jpg

    Here it is locked in place, upright position:
    20211011_141644.jpg

    Oh yeah, I almost forgot to show ya'll this. My akas are folding up with out crazy binding. I think the hinges have maybe worn in a little, creating just enough slack for the akas to fold up. I drove back from the boat ramp like this, with a strap across the amas pulling them inboard towards each other. Seems like it worked with no issues:
    20211011_141728.jpg
    “If everybody is thinking alike, then somebody isn’t thinking.”
    “You’re never beaten until you admit it.”
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  18. #438
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    Default Re: Newbie needs help with small DIY sail plan, trimaran setup.


  19. #439
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    Default Re: Newbie needs help with small DIY sail plan, trimaran setup.

    Ohhhhhh.... Alright Gary, you gotta cough up some plans for that... I like the big roomy looking hull. I checked out the website and there was one on there that I think they said was 24 feet long, with 16 foot amas painted white. What are the design specs, and where can I get some plans for a Ulua? And can I use a simple bermuda rig with a boom like mine? Just so I can simplify the sail construction. Those akas look almost like an exact copy of the CLC Sailrig amas. Or did CLC copy these??? Anyway, educate me on where I can get some plans and design specs. Thanks!
    “If everybody is thinking alike, then somebody isn’t thinking.”
    “You’re never beaten until you admit it.”
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  20. #440
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    Default Re: Newbie needs help with small DIY sail plan, trimaran setup.

    If the next boat is going to be a family size one, I'd suggest looking at something like Jim Brown's Seaclipper 20. It's designed to be quick and easy to launch, and to sail a crowd when needed. Those amas swing back against the hull in seconds for trailering.



    -Dave

  21. #441
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    Default Re: Newbie needs help with small DIY sail plan, trimaran setup.

    Ok, yeah, now that I read more into Gary's website, looks like those sailing canoes have a pretty narrow beam. Can I use the same building methods for the Seaclipper 20? Cedar Strip plank, birdsmouth mast, etc? The Seaclipper looks like there might be enough room forward to sneak a small cozy cabin onto it. But I dont know about increasing to the family size just yet. But at least upgrade to a 2 person size.
    “If everybody is thinking alike, then somebody isn’t thinking.”
    “You’re never beaten until you admit it.”
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  22. #442
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    Default Re: Newbie needs help with small DIY sail plan, trimaran setup.

    The Seaclipper is designed to be built with ply -- quick and simple. I just pulled that out as an example. To carry two people most any tri is going to stretch to 18 or 20 feet. If you stick with a tandem kayak base you'll be facing some limitations and will have a wet ride in any kind of sea. There are other small tri designs out there with deeper hulls and side seating for getting crew weight to windward. A stripper boat with rounded hulls would generally be a slightly faster boat (and better looking) than a chined ply boat.

    There are some interesting links on this site if you haven't come across it already: http://smalltrimarans.com/blog/categ...trimaran-info/
    -Dave

  23. #443
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    Default Re: Newbie needs help with small DIY sail plan, trimaran setup.

    If you are dragging the stern, there is more at issue than raising the rudder housing.
    Can you just move the new seat forward to where the back of the seat is supported by the aft ama?

    The real problem is that you have too much weight aft, or not enough volume in the stern ( not easily changed).

    Also if you think about bigger amas, you need to raise the akas so that the amas barely touch with the sailing weight of the boat, equipment, and sailor.
    The weird double curve in the akas on the CLC Sail Rig are really not the best design for strength and light weight.

    I assume your back was in much better shape this time.

    If you want to stay with a kayak base for the next tri, you might look at the Microbootlegger. 17', 500# displacement, 27 inch beam.
    The only thing is that it is double ended, which means you can have the same problem with stern squatting if the total weight is too far aft.
    You would probably shorten the cockpit (move the front edge aft) and make side seating benches.
    It might be easier to flatten the deck, but would not be as pretty.
    It would be easy to stretch it to 19' or more.

    Of course, you see that there are a lots of desirable design changes to get a hull specific to tri sailing.
    Last edited by upchurchmr; 10-12-2021 at 02:49 AM.

  24. #444
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    Default Re: Newbie needs help with small DIY sail plan, trimaran setup.

    Sorry to respond so late guys. Been super busy. So, I do like the light weight and portability of a kayak base, but I want a flat stern on the next one. I can't move the seat forward but for what I have I am really pleased. I'm thinking maybe one more good sailing weekend and I'll put her up for the winter. It is starting to get a bit chilly in the morning down here.
    “If everybody is thinking alike, then somebody isn’t thinking.”
    “You’re never beaten until you admit it.”
    - General George Smith Patton

  25. #445
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    Default Re: Newbie needs help with small DIY sail plan, trimaran setup.

    Well you will have all winter to plan for the next boat.
    Lots of armchair work to have fun with.

  26. #446
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    Default Re: Newbie needs help with small DIY sail plan, trimaran setup.

    Hey Guys! So yesterday and today was my last hurrah for the season. I got a cheap 34$ action camera at costco, so I figured I would try it out. Yesterday I didn't do so well. Winds were nice until I got becalmed for about 45 minutes. Before and after that, I did some nice cruising. Today was insane. Winds blowing a solid 8knots, gusting 13 to 15 knots. I will post a video in a bit. But the video doesn't really show how beat up I was getting.

    I made a mistake and changed my topping lift line, and made it too short. It did not allow the boom to straighten out the sail. The sail was like a big balloon all the way across the lake. I beached at a park, shortened the topping lift, and on the return trip I had a much easier time. When the lift was too short, My entire rig was really hard to control, and hard to find the sweetspot of heading, sail set, and rudder pressure. Of course the wind was howling and I didn't have much free time to make adjustments without risking capsizing.

    So, now that my first sailing season is over, I gotta say I have learned a lot from the crew here on the wooden boat forum. You guys are great. I am glad there is a generous group of fellows still around in this country/world that are willing to share. And I have learned a ton from actually getting out there on the water and getting my feet wet(pun intended).

    So now.... I have so many modifications I want to do to my boat that I think I AM going to have to build a new one. This one just aint dry enough for winter time. I got soaked today and damn near froze to death. I thought about putting some ripstop nylon spray shields on there, but I don't think they would last long, and I don't know how they might affect the sailing characteristics. I think they might act like sails too. Have y'all seen anybody do something like that before? I also want more buoyancy in the amas. If I can step on the ama with out it sinking, I can get in the boat without getting wet. I might make some bigger amas just by stretching the beam width and height dimensions on the drawings. I don't want them to be longer though. I guess I will lose a little speed due to increased drag if I make them fatter. Geez... trade-offs and compromises... And upchurchmr is right, I need that stern to sit higher. I got too much water in the rear hatch today. But I don't have manyoptions to move my new seat much further forward. I should have recorded video on the way back. I was doing 6knots downwind and the bow was stabbing through waves, getting me more soaked. This boat is great for summer time when I don't care about getting wet, but 63deg F is not warm enough to be soaked in a 8 knot wind! If I do any mods over the winter I will post pics, till then, fair seas fellow sailors!

    EDIT: Oh yeah, one more thing, I am going to make the tiller arm on the rudder longer. I cut it down from the orignal, but now that I am getting some good speeds, I need more torque on the rudder to help keep her straight. I also need to make a smaller, hinged tiller that I can move around the seat with me when I have to hike out on the amas. I also wonder if I can make a slider seat to slide out on the amas.... too much thinking..

    Today's excursion. Sorry no audio, cheap camera:
    Last edited by Lee.007; 11-13-2021 at 10:38 PM.
    “If everybody is thinking alike, then somebody isn’t thinking.”
    “You’re never beaten until you admit it.”
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  27. #447
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    Default Re: Newbie needs help with small DIY sail plan, trimaran setup.

    Hey guys, I am working on a new video that shows a few pics and video of my assembly process. I will post it tonight after work. I added some music to it, so YouTube might fuss at me, but oh well.
    “If everybody is thinking alike, then somebody isn’t thinking.”
    “You’re never beaten until you admit it.”
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  28. #448
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    Default Re: Newbie needs help with small DIY sail plan, trimaran setup.

    Well, youtube didn't fuss at me for using pirate music, but they did say the author was going to use it for ads. Cool, no skin off my nose.

    This video shows some of the building process for my boat (Looks like youtube wants you to go their site to see it):

    Last edited by Lee.007; 11-22-2021 at 07:30 PM.
    “If everybody is thinking alike, then somebody isn’t thinking.”
    “You’re never beaten until you admit it.”
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  29. #449
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    Default Re: Newbie needs help with small DIY sail plan, trimaran setup.

    Nice video. And you've come a very long way since your first post, not long past. Good work. (And drop "newbie" from any future threads!)
    -Dave

  30. #450
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    Default Re: Newbie needs help with small DIY sail plan, trimaran setup.

    Thanks Dave, and I definitely will. I guess I can move up from newbie to "swabbie" or maybe "bosun's mate".

    OH YEAH, guess what? I bullied my wife into telling me she is getting me a wetsuit for Christmas! The historical data from Strom Thurmond Lake suggests that the lake water temperature hardly ever gets below 49deg F, and that is only for about two weeks in February. So, guess who is still going to go sailing this winter after Christmas? Yup, me! The suit she ordered is a 5mm thick one from ZCCO with pretty good reviews. I don't mind getting wet, as long as I stay warm. Me and cold temps are NOT friends.

    I gotta find some time to make my rudder arm longer(making it shorter was a mistake), make my tiller smaller and more flexible, and I think I am going to rig up something to move my new seat further forward to try to get the stern out of the water. It will cover the back part of the cockpit, but I have not sit down in the cockpit since I put the new seat on anyway. And I could use the space under the seat for storage.

    I keep thinking about my next boat. I will probably start a new thread....
    “If everybody is thinking alike, then somebody isn’t thinking.”
    “You’re never beaten until you admit it.”
    - General George Smith Patton

  31. #451
    Join Date
    Jan 2017
    Location
    South Patrick Shores, USA
    Posts
    823

    Default Re: Newbie needs help with small DIY sail plan, trimaran setup.

    Just spent a great morning reading about your journey, not sure how I missed it before. THANKS! Great product all around!

    Quote Originally Posted by Lee.007 View Post
    I gotta find some time to make my rudder arm longer(making it shorter was a mistake)
    I was wondering about that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lee.007 View Post
    I keep thinking about my next boat. I will probably start a new thread....
    Sign me up Lee!
    “Perpetual optimism is a force to live by.”

    Colin Powell

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