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Thread: Taming the lug luff.

  1. #1
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    Default Taming the lug luff.

    I'm getting tired of dropping my unboomed standing lug sail into the drink when I lower it. I am set up to be able to raise and lower from aft in my boat so I can't get forward to corral it as it comes down.


    I am thinking about experimenting with some light lines, robands if you will, from my luff around the mast loose enough not to affect the sail shape. Give me something to pull back against as I lowered the sail. Anyone tried this or have another idea?

    Thanks,
    Ben Fuller
    Ran Tan, Liten Kuhling, Tipsy, Tippy, Josef W., Merry Mouth, Imp, Macavity, Look Far, Flash and a quiver of other 'yaks.
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  2. #2
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    Default Re: Taming the lug luff.

    Why have you set up to work the halyard from aft?
    Just belay the halyard at the mast and hand the sail from there.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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    Default Re: Taming the lug luff.

    I often find myself grabbing a reef nettle as my lug drops to keep the sail from falling into the water. Keeping it out of the water seems to depend on whether or not I quickly drop the sail - or if I hesitate for even a moment as it comes down. When I hesitate, wind fills the belly and it goes into the water. That said, my sail usually falls into the water.

    I really like the simplicity of the balance lug. Adding more lines works against that.

    These are good problems to have in life.
    Quote Originally Posted by James McMullen View Post
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  4. #4
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    Default Re: Taming the lug luff.

    Quote Originally Posted by Peerie Maa View Post
    Why have you set up to work the halyard from aft?
    Just belay the halyard at the mast and hand the sail from there.
    Boat is a little too fine to wander about up forward, clamber across two seats etc. Beamier boats it is different. But this is also a problem on my larger Irens Romilly, which is the rig that inspired Ran Tan. Sail is very efficient high aspect ratio, fully battened etc. When you are aft your head is clear of the sail. Jibing is a joy, everything happens in front of you.
    Last edited by Ben Fuller; 07-29-2020 at 02:27 PM.
    Ben Fuller
    Ran Tan, Liten Kuhling, Tipsy, Tippy, Josef W., Merry Mouth, Imp, Macavity, Look Far, Flash and a quiver of other 'yaks.
    "Bound fast is boatless man."

  5. #5
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    Default Re: Taming the lug luff.

    Ahh, there's too much furniture in the way to quickly go forward to catch the sail as it comes down. That's an interesting wrinkle.
    Quote Originally Posted by James McMullen View Post
    Yeadon is right, of course.

  6. #6
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    Default Re: Taming the lug luff.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ben Fuller View Post
    Boat is a little too fine to wander about up forward, clamber across two seats etc. Beamier boats it is different. But this is also a problem on my larger Irens Romilly, which is the rig that inspired Ran Tan. Sail is very efficient high aspect ratio, fully battened etc. When you are aft your head is clear of the sail. Jibing is a joy, everything happens in front of you.
    If you really cannot go forward, fit cringles to the luff and reeve a downhaul through them with a turning block at the tack. Keep tension on the downhaul as you pay the halyard out. The sail will furl like a roman blind.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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  7. #7
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    Default Re: Taming the lug luff.

    Yes, the sail is very high aspect with about 6' on the foot on a 17 and half foot mast, fully battened. Wickedly efficient. One of the few lug rigged boats with a toe strap which I need. I have done the grab the nettle thing but I'm not far enough forward when I have camping gear stowed under and between the thwarts. The cringle idea is what I do with my Romily which has two permanent reefing tack down hauls led back to the cockpit. I could test the idea on RANTAN using a light line running through the grommets at the tack end of the three sets of reef points.

    One of the other reasons that I have the halyard run back to a quick release cleat on the forward thwart is that I like to drop the sail after I have righted the boat from a capsize and want to do it from where I have come in over the rail.

    What all this reminds me is that we are trying to take rigs that were generally crewed by at least two and do different things with them.
    Ben Fuller
    Ran Tan, Liten Kuhling, Tipsy, Tippy, Josef W., Merry Mouth, Imp, Macavity, Look Far, Flash and a quiver of other 'yaks.
    "Bound fast is boatless man."

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    Default Re: Taming the lug luff.

    My Autumn Leaves has a balance lug main, and I rigged lazyjacks to control dousing and also to keep everything overhead and out of the way at anchor. In your case, without a boom, but with full battens, I wonder how this might work.

    The mention of your Romilly got me thinking about those rigs. And I see that Irens shows lines on Roxane that appear to be similar to what you're thinking of trying? I don't see this shown on Romilly.

    In my case, the lazyjacks are an added complication but well worth it -- the boom crutch can be put away and the spars aren't inclined to slide off the narrow bows.

    -Dave

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    Default Re: Taming the lug luff.

    This worked for me


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    Default Re: Taming the lug luff.

    Quote Originally Posted by Peerie Maa View Post
    If you really cannot go forward, fit cringles to the luff and reeve a downhaul through them with a turning block at the tack. Keep tension on the downhaul as you pay the halyard out. The sail will furl like a roman blind.
    Thanks that’s a great idea.

  11. #11
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    Default Re: Taming the lug luff.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ben Fuller View Post
    Boat is a little too fine to wander about up forward, clamber across two seats etc. Beamier boats it is different. But this is also a problem on my larger Irens Romilly, which is the rig that inspired Ran Tan. Sail is very efficient high aspect ratio, fully battened etc. When you are aft your head is clear of the sail. Jibing is a joy, everything happens in front of you.
    Ben,

    I know you've got plenty of experience to know what you're talking about better than me. But I'm curious: do you use a tiller tender of some kind?

    I find with my simple line-and-bungee system, I have all the time in the world to move forward for sail handling. I also have a narrow (4' 8") tender boat, with 1 (or 2) thwarts in between, depending on where I am sitting.



    I also haven't found it necessary to drop the sail in capsize recoveries--I've only done 2, but one of them was in actual windy sailing conditions. I suppose sea state matters more in needing to drop the sail? Isn't freeing the sheet enough to keep from re-capsizing?

    That's a TALL rig, though. Probably harder to manage than my little 85 sq ft sail on a 13' mast.

    I'd be interested in your thoughts on the above. Thanks,

    Tom
    You don't have to be prepared as long as you're willing to suffer the consequences.

    www.tompamperin.com

  12. #12
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    Default Re: Taming the lug luff.

    Quote Originally Posted by WI-Tom View Post
    Ben,

    I know you've got plenty of experience to know what you're talking about better than me. But I'm curious: do you use a tiller tender of some kind?

    I find with my simple line-and-bungee system, I have all the time in the world to move forward for sail handling. I also have a narrow (4' 8") tender boat, with 1 (or 2) thwarts in between, depending on where I am sitting.



    I also haven't found it necessary to drop the sail in capsize recoveries--I've only done 2, but one of them was in actual windy sailing conditions. I suppose sea state matters more in needing to drop the sail? Isn't freeing the sheet enough to keep from re-capsizing?

    That's a TALL rig, though. Probably harder to manage than my little 85 sq ft sail on a 13' mast.

    I'd be interested in your thoughts on the above. Thanks,

    Tom
    Tom.
    I haven't rigged self steering on RANTAN, as she has a mizzen and an off center dog leg tiller. Something I'm thinking about. I have rigged one for the Romily, the rope with the bungy loop which I think I learned about from you.

    The hassle getting forward on RANTAN to the spot where it is easy to pull in the sail as it comes down is that when camping the space along side the trunk has the duffle bags, the portable crapper etc. Its hard to get forward of the cockpit. Having the halyard and the downhaul rigged so I can pull things up and down from aft is a great convenience. Freeing the main is generally enough to keep from capsizing again, but it is really nice to have things calm when you are applying the big black horsebucket bilge pump.

    I have a feeling that there will be some driveway experimentation.

    Ben
    Ben Fuller
    Ran Tan, Liten Kuhling, Tipsy, Tippy, Josef W., Merry Mouth, Imp, Macavity, Look Far, Flash and a quiver of other 'yaks.
    "Bound fast is boatless man."

  13. #13
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    Default Re: Taming the lug luff.

    Thanks--I'll be interested in seeing what you come up with, so I hope you'll post about it here.

    My own bias runs so far in the direction of simplicity that I'm sure I miss lots of ingenious solutions to problems I've just decided to live with because I'm lazy!

    By the way, the self-steering in the clip above is an improvement over my old line/bungee system. This one relies on a thumb cleat under the tiller. The two main advantages are:

    1. No chafe--the old system eventually chafes through the bungee.

    2. Far easier to set and release.

    It functions just as well, with all the same advantages of being able to steer at any moment without releasing tension or adjusting. I did not invent it--I've seen similar set-ups posted here from a number of people.

    Tom
    You don't have to be prepared as long as you're willing to suffer the consequences.

    www.tompamperin.com

  14. #14
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    Default Re: Taming the lug luff.

    Tom,

    Will certainly report on experimentation. I need to hunt around for some parrel beads and make up some toggle robands. Am thinking about trying one on my second reef tack grommet to start, nice and loose so there is no affect on the sail.

    I found your bungee loop and bead worked well on the Romilly as there was already an adjustable line across the cockpit, usually used to lash the tiller. Was real easy to hook the tiller on to it. Not sure what you meant about a thumb cleat; an open jam cleat?
    Ben Fuller
    Ran Tan, Liten Kuhling, Tipsy, Tippy, Josef W., Merry Mouth, Imp, Macavity, Look Far, Flash and a quiver of other 'yaks.
    "Bound fast is boatless man."

  15. #15
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    Default Re: Taming the lug luff.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ben Fuller View Post
    I found your bungee loop and bead worked well on the Romilly as there was already an adjustable line across the cockpit, usually used to lash the tiller. Was real easy to hook the tiller on to it. Not sure what you meant about a thumb cleat; an open jam cleat?
    Here's a photo:

    thumb cleat.jpg

    The thumb cleat (just a lump of wood to hold the line in place) has to be positioned forward of the thwartwhips line--it's the tension pulling backward that holds the tiller in place. I installed mine where the tiller runs over the aft deck, aft of the sternsheets backrest, so it'll never interfere with the cockpit at all.

    I use a small line dead-ended at the horn cleat on the starboard quarter. On the port horn cleat, I use a small bungee loop (just a bungee/ball loop with the ball removed, doubled up). To set, I run the line through the bungee loop and tie it off with a slipped half hitch so I can release it with one pull.

    You could just leave the line tied and pull it over the cleat, but in practice I've found it works better to tie off with a quick release--I use enough tension that it's not as easy to pull the line over the cleat if it's still under tension.

    It works just the same as my old method, but with no chafe on the bungee. AND, it's far easier to set up again after releasing it. It does take the added complication of sticking something on the underside of the tiller, but that's no big deal. I've been really happy with it.

    Tom
    You don't have to be prepared as long as you're willing to suffer the consequences.

    www.tompamperin.com

  16. #16
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    Default Re: Taming the lug luff.

    Tom,
    This will be piece of cake on my Romilly where there is already a cross boat line that is used to center the rudder on the mooring. Its what I used to do the bungee loop which work well. Won't work on the Harrier where I have a dog leg tiller off set to one side. There I can just about self steer by bodu weight. Still haven't done a driveway set experiment with luff roband or a down haul luff down haul to solve the loose sail problem. What it comes down to is that if you can't get next to the sail to pull it in you need to pull back on the leech as it drops, which is easy on a laced or tracked mast but doesn't work for the lug.
    Ben Fuller
    Ran Tan, Liten Kuhling, Tipsy, Tippy, Josef W., Merry Mouth, Imp, Macavity, Look Far, Flash and a quiver of other 'yaks.
    "Bound fast is boatless man."

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    Default Re: Taming the lug luff.

    Ben, does RanTan’s luff have grommets? If so, a few quick release robands made up of dyneema or similar with an eye splice on one end and an appropriately sized toggle or ball on the other might do. Planning such a luff attachment for Jewell:
    B831E824-02F3-4BB7-A519-8719AF067983.jpg

  18. #18
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    Default Re: Taming the lug luff.

    John,

    That is what I am going to try for RANTAN. Make the robands out of leech line like the ones I made for the gaff rigged iceboat, with toggles and loops seized. For my little sail plenty strong enough. I'll do a drive way test after this tropical storm blows through.

    Problem I knew about from the Romily because you access everything from the cockpit and there is a deckhouse in the way. I solved it to some extent by taking in the reef tack lines as I lower the sail. Not a problem in traditional applications as you are alongside the sail and can control things when lowering, but as soon as you have a cabin or in the case of RANTAN are full of camping gear you can't get to where you want to be. Is this a solution that Vivier recommends?
    Ben Fuller
    Ran Tan, Liten Kuhling, Tipsy, Tippy, Josef W., Merry Mouth, Imp, Macavity, Look Far, Flash and a quiver of other 'yaks.
    "Bound fast is boatless man."

  19. #19
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    Default Re: Taming the lug luff.

    Ben, I haven’t talked with Francois V. about this, but Ben Ullings who built his in the Netherlands uses this arrangement. His boat and mine have carbon spars on Vivier’s specified tabernacle. The idea of the robands is mainly so lowering the rig for shooting bridges or packing the boat up for over the road lets you detach the bundled sail for lowering the mast. Here is Ben’s boat, in flight with a reef in at the 2013 Semaine du Golfe:
    EC093F34-2FA3-480E-BA00-7BABA96493FA.jpg

  20. #20
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    Default Re: Taming the lug luff.

    We've had similar discussions on this issue here before, at least one started by me. Like you folks, I'm VERY tired of that big spar coming down into the boat uncontrolled, usually athwartships with one end in the water in my experience.

    I'll probably try lazy jacks on my Caledonia Yawl, but am concerned that adding blocks, lines and halyards may create a lot more problems than they solve -- particularly when singlehanding.

    Great thread and good information -- thanks!
    "The enemies of reason have a certain blind look."
    Doctor Jacquin to Lieutenant D'Hubert, in Ridley Scott's first major film _The Duellists_.

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    Default Re: Taming the lug luff.

    Thorne, I suspect you are exactly right about the added complications of lazyjacks on a CY. Ben’s boats are both boomless standing lugs, and high aspect ones at that, neither of which is conducive to going forward to literally take the luff in hand for sail sail control while lowering the rig. The CY is plenty stable enough to stand forward. A yawl with a boomed main (whether standard or sprit boomed) has the advantage of heaving to, then dropping the rig so that the boom gets the clew end of the sail inboard early in the process. Once the boom is in the boat it is much easier to get the rest of the sail to follow suit. Ben’s boomless sails and inability to easily go forward compound his challenge.
    Last edited by John hartmann; 08-04-2020 at 07:25 AM. Reason: Clarity

  22. #22
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    Default Re: Taming the lug luff.

    Inventory of parrel beads was short here so have ordered some, maybe a driveway test this weekend. In looking over my various sources I think the Chinese lug rigs may have what I have in mind when lowering. There look to be robands when each one of the yards cross the mast, ones that are only involved when raising and lowering. We will see.

    Controlling the yard is a little different and I think Phil Bolger had the simplest solution with a 'peak' halyard. Romily's rig has a 'snotter' a parrel beaded line that goes from the head of the yard around the mast and back set so that the yard can't kick much below horizontal. This may be an Irens original. It can be set up to be adjustable if one wants to olay with the yard angle when sailing.
    Ben Fuller
    Ran Tan, Liten Kuhling, Tipsy, Tippy, Josef W., Merry Mouth, Imp, Macavity, Look Far, Flash and a quiver of other 'yaks.
    "Bound fast is boatless man."

  23. #23
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    Default Re: Taming the lug luff.

    The peak halyard I have rigged gives me good control over the spar. By raising the peak and lowering the main halyard, the spar collapses to vertical, and I can gather the clew and the bag of the sail to bring it all forward to the mast. Once I get the spar lowered to the point where the forward tip is just above the floorboards, I can make off the peak halyard and then get a line around the sail and mast to get things under control (if it's a temporary douse). When getting the sail down in a blow, I can free off the parrel line and then easily manhandle the spar and sail into the boat.

    I don't always do it that way, though, and I, too, end up pretending to all observers that I set the sail for a little net fishing.

  24. #24
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    Default Re: Taming the lug luff.

    Interesting! I may try the peak halyard before going to lazy jacks and see how it works on my CY. Thanks!


    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Jackson View Post
    The peak halyard I have rigged gives me good control over the spar. By raising the peak and lowering the main halyard, the spar collapses to vertical, and I can gather the clew and the bag of the sail to bring it all forward to the mast. Once I get the spar lowered to the point where the forward tip is just above the floorboards, I can make off the peak halyard and then get a line around the sail and mast to get things under control (if it's a temporary douse). When getting the sail down in a blow, I can free off the parrel line and then easily manhandle the spar and sail into the boat.

    I don't always do it that way, though, and I, too, end up pretending to all observers that I set the sail for a little net fishing.
    "The enemies of reason have a certain blind look."
    Doctor Jacquin to Lieutenant D'Hubert, in Ridley Scott's first major film _The Duellists_.

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