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Thread: Brandishing Firearms

  1. #71
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    Default Re: Brandishing Firearms

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Mahan View Post
    No. The ideal thing would be for the culture to abandon the childish selfish need for a lethal toy.
    So, I agree. But, in what political climate do you see this happening? You know what it would take to change the constitution, it's not happening in any reasonable timeline, on this dimensional string, any time soon. So, we find ourselves in a completely dangerous situation; are you just gonna kneel and die? Because that's what all the Trump supporters I know want to do to us. They want us gone. The second Trump gives them permission, like me, you will have a target on your back. What then? the next 6 months to a year is the most dangerous time we Americans have experienced as a country since the first Civil War. Do you think a fractured government will be strong enough to protect you from your neighbors?

    I'm sorry, but you're living under a rock if you think this MAGA thing isn't a threat.

  2. #72
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    Default Re: Brandishing Firearms

    Quote Originally Posted by Canoez View Post
    Nope. Not missing the point.
    Sorry man, but you are missing the point, Bob's point anyway.

  3. #73
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    Default Re: Brandishing Firearms

    No, Mike, I am not. If you’re paying attention to Bob’s M.O., you’ll see that any time there is a thread where anything is critical of firearms in any way, he drops in to both defend and distract. Postings here are yet another example of that pattern.

    i am in favor of an individual’s right to own a firearm within the framework of the law. I am also intolerant of those that are unsafe with firearms, break the law with firearms, or threaten or harass others with firearms. Period.
    "The pessimist complains about the wind; the optimist expects it to change; the realist adjusts the sails."
    -William A. Ward



  4. #74
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    Default Re: Brandishing Firearms

    Quote Originally Posted by Canoez View Post
    No, Mike, I am not. If you’re paying attention to Bob’s M.O., you’ll see that any time there is a thread where anything is critical of firearms in any way, he drops in to both defend and distract. Postings here are yet another example of that pattern.

    i am in favor of an individual’s right to own a firearm within the framework of the law. I am also intolerant of those that are unsafe with firearms, break the law with firearms, or threaten or harass others with firearms. Period.
    I have never seen Bob advocate for breaking the law. But whatever, you two can have your fun.

    Assuming we can get back to some sort of political and societal normalcy here, I will vote against any Democrat who threatens the 2nd. I'm all for fully automatic weapons being banned, even the grandfathers ones, and also universal background checks and limited red flag laws, but universal reciprocity will be my trade off for all of that.

    IMO, those two in FL broke the law and should have their right to carry revoked. For the record.

  5. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by McMike View Post
    IMO, those two in FL broke the law and should have their right to carry revoked. For the record.
    Missouri.

    If it was Florida, someone would have pinned medals on those two.
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    Default Re: Brandishing Firearms


  7. #77
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    Default Re: Brandishing Firearms

    Quote Originally Posted by Canoez View Post
    Missouri.

    If it was Florida, someone would have pinned medals on those two.
    It's getting hard to keep up with all of the shenanigans going on these days.

  8. #78
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    Default Re: Brandishing Firearms

    De-escalate.
    Speak softly and carry a mouthful of marbles.

  9. #79
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    Default Re: Brandishing Firearms

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Mahan View Post
    De-escalate.
    As an absolute, you're delusional. As a tactic right this moment, absolutely. But what happens when they start shooting us? I'm telling you, MANY Trump supporters see Liberals as the Nazis viewed the Jews. They want us dead. They want this country for themselves. From the top down, we are living a coup. You need to arm yourself, not to start a war but to prevent a holocaust.

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    Default Re: Brandishing Firearms

    McMike, yannow, some day if humans continue to somehow thrive, those survivors will live in a world without guns. All of the shooting and killing and maiming and that particular violence will be an historical oddity, like cowboys and wagon trains and the pony express and injuns. It will take longer than either of us or maybe our grandkids will live to see, but it will happen. Not that there won't linger, maybe forever, human violence.

    I'm not living where you live, and am not in your situation. I don't yet believe the whole nasty awful Trump saga will necessarily resolve only after armed conflict. We're getting awfully close to the edge but I still think Trump's demise is imminent, more likely day by day, and the crash of the Republican party just as imminent.

    Post-Trump and his Rs, the country will be in another new normal every bit as profound and pervasive as post-pandemic new normal.
    Speak softly and carry a mouthful of marbles.

  11. #81
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    Default Re: Brandishing Firearms

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob (oh, THAT Bob) View Post
    I'll give up handguns, if they let me carry a rifle in public. Of course, then the rifle is not concealed, but visible. So if I just touch it, I get charged with... wait for it... BRANDISHING.

    People need to think things through completely.
    Why would you want to walk about in public with a penis extension hanging on your shoulder?
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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  12. #82
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    Default Re: Brandishing Firearms

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Mahan View Post
    No. The ideal thing would be for the culture to abandon the childish selfish need for a lethal toy. We don't knock women on the head and drag 'em back to camp anymore. We don't (mostly) steal people from their homes and chain them up to ensure good shareholder value, anymore. We can evolve and that includes the culture and that includes passing legislation and that includes some nominal adults being disappointed about the passing of a hobby a tradition a failure of humanity.

    Ideally, guns and associated instruments of death and destruction would be relegated to our past.
    Won't happen
    We still wrestle.
    We still throw spears on the sports field.
    Toxophily is still widely practised.

    You could, when hell freezes over, decide to reduce the death toll by bringing gun ownership into line with the more civilised first world nations. But thanks to that perverse decision by a SCOTUS, you may never be able to achieve that.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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    Keep calm, persistence beats resistance.

  14. #84
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    Default Re: Brandishing Firearms

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Mahan View Post
    McMike, yannow, some day if humans continue to somehow thrive, those survivors will live in a world without guns. All of the shooting and killing and maiming and that particular violence will be an historical oddity, like cowboys and wagon trains and the pony express and injuns. It will take longer than either of us or maybe our grandkids will live to see, but it will happen. Not that there won't linger, maybe forever, human violence.

    I'm not living where you live, and am not in your situation. I don't yet believe the whole nasty awful Trump saga will necessarily resolve only after armed conflict. We're getting awfully close to the edge but I still think Trump's demise is imminent, more likely day by day, and the crash of the Republican party just as imminent.

    Post-Trump and his Rs, the country will be in another new normal every bit as profound and pervasive as post-pandemic new normal.
    From your mouth to god's ears. I hope you're right, I hope and even pray, to what god, I don't know, that you're 100% right. And I hope someday, I can go back to being the old McMike and sell my guns, and feel safe. But if you're wrong . . .
    Last edited by McMike; 07-25-2020 at 06:09 PM.

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    Default Re: Brandishing Firearms

    Quote Originally Posted by oznabrag View Post
    They miss Osborne's point, as well.

    When you say your "My words in this thread are NOT about changing your minds about firearms", I think the connection you are failing to make for them is that putting firearms regulation at the forefront of this campaign is like Kryptonite to the Democrats.

    Abortion, same same.

    It's not as though you don't think gun culture in this country is WAY outta hand, it's that you believe the danger of arming the Republicans with Kryptonite may not be the best choice at this juncture.


    (bold) Right there. Exactly.
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    Quote Originally Posted by oznabrag View Post
    Bob, I think what may be happening in the runup to this election is that there are so many people who are pissed off and fed up with Donal F Trump's bullspit that the old white guys like your dad are fixin' to not have the power to stop us anymore.

    The most frustrating thing is that the US used to have a fairly healthy gun culture.

    Phillip Allen was brought up in that culture, as were you, and he was quite willing to trash on the whole 'black gun' thing.

    The ideal thing would be for the US gun culture return to sanity, because you're right, this can't be fixed with laws without a lot of 'difficulties', BECAUSE it's not a legal problem, it's a culture problem.
    (bold) Bad assumption, IMHO. Assumptions were made for the 2016 election, which proved false. I'd rather not leave anything to chance. Making any assumption at this point is foolish, especially since, after everything Trump and his minions have done, there are still tens of millions of USA citizens that will still vote for him. Trumps is still not a small, fringe, 3rd party candidacy. He won in 2016. He is an incumbent. He has the entire federal executive and justice department at his beck and call. He is using the pandemic to try to suppress votes, all while denying the existence of said pandemic. He his trying to deep-six the US Postal Service.

    Heck, two weeks ago, my dad, a very educated man in a technical field, was still not willing to say he would not vote for Trump. The gun issue is EVERYTHING to him. It was his primary form of recreation, both competition (at a high level, with both Match rifles and Service rifles) and hunting. He is hawkish on national defense. He worked in national defense. He gave all his sons Life Membership in the NRA when they were 17, both as a sincere gift, and because it was a raging deal to buy for someone still a minor (like $100 or something for life, I still get the American Rifleman for free to this day). He, myself, my brother, all got a surplus M1 Garand in a government lottery sale; Required: Proof of US citizenship, proof of age, proof of membership in a Civilian Marksmanship Program-affiliated organization, proof of marksmanship or firearms related activity, legal eligibility to purchase a firearm, and back in my day, proof of Selective Service registration. He had a Federal Firearms ("Dealers") License. He was praised by the BATFE inspector for having the most meticulous records she had every seen. He is meticulous about safety. He abhorred hunters that if bored because of scarce game, would shoot at "tweetybirds" (songbirds). He doesn't own an AR ("black rifle"), only because he doesn't think much of them, however recognizes that in the decades since he stopped competing, the AR has taking over competition, even winning outright at the Nationals over bolt rifles. However he does own earlier generations of semi-auto versions of military rifles. Dad actually IS the old "healthy gun culture", he just doesn't have perspective for the bigger picture with regard to elections. It's like telling Mark Spitz that you're going to ban pools because of too many pool accidents. Yes I know, far fewer than guns. I'm talking about the mentality.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Canoez View Post
    No, Mike, I am not. If you’re paying attention to Bob’s M.O., you’ll see that any time there is a thread where anything is critical of firearms in any way, he drops in to both defend and distract. Postings here are yet another example of that pattern.

    i am in favor of an individual’s right to own a firearm within the framework of the law. I am also intolerant of those that are unsafe with firearms, break the law with firearms, or threaten or harass others with firearms. Period.
    (bold) Quite the contrary. I'm worried that gun-owning voters will be distracted from the insane level of corruption shown by Trump and still vote for him because they think Biden is going to take their guns away.

    I. Am. Voting. For. Biden.

    I. Am. On. Your. Side.

    Even. If. You. Don't. Realize. It.
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    Default Re: Brandishing Firearms

    "Heck, two weeks ago, my dad, a very educated man in a technical field, was still not willing to say he would not vote for Trump. The gun issue is EVERYTHING to him"

    There's none so blind that will not see.

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    Quote Originally Posted by skuthorp View Post
    "Heck, two weeks ago, my dad, a very educated man in a technical field, was still not willing to say he would not vote for Trump. The gun issue is EVERYTHING to him"

    There's none so blind that will not see.
    You haven't met my dad. Too old and stubborn to change. It's gotten worse in recent years.
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    Default Re: Brandishing Firearms

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob (oh, THAT Bob) View Post
    Let me put this another way.

    Now, picture if you will, under a democratic president, agents of the federal government, going to states like, oh, I don't know, Arkansas, Georgia, Alabama, Florida, Idaho, Montana, Colorado, Alaska, et al, showing up at people's doors and saying, "We're here to take your guns. Not all of them. Just... some of them." I want to you imagine what is going to happen. Right there at the doorstep, and on the mall in Washington DC, and to the rest of the democratic party agenda.
    ?
    Why do you think it will be a democratic president? Historically most gun controls were put in place by republicans. See: Reagan, those f**ckers get frightened and it's all over.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Canoeyawl View Post
    Why do you think it will be a democratic president? Historically most gun controls were put in place by republicans. See: Reagan, those f**ckers get frightened and it's all over.
    When he was governor. Flipped when he ran for president. Got awards at the NRA convention. The NRA still runs full page ads for this conservative youth indoctrination camp run at the Reagan Ranch. Very, very white. But this past year they posted in the ad photos of token black people! A photo of four of them, completely separate from the huge group photo of 50-75 or so white folks from previous ads. Looks blatantly rushed and staged.

    But yes, if Trump wins the 2020 election and is not worried about future elections or that of republican congress people who are worried right now, and he fears civil armed resistance against the government, oh sure, he'll ban guns in a heartbeat.

    This is the primary reason I didn't want Mike Bloomberg as the dem candidate. He would've gotten blown out of the water on the gun issue, because he was so widely associated with it. With Biden it's less obvious, but his stated positions online are now getting out and it could cost him the election, just like last time, an undercurrent not seen until election night. Then the next day people saying, "What happened?"
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    Default Re: Brandishing Firearms

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob (oh, THAT Bob) View Post
    (bold) Bad assumption, IMHO. Assumptions were made for the 2016 election, which proved false.
    In 2016 you didn't have the level of engagement we do now.

    Trump has his base, but it has actually shrunk, and there are a LOT of people who didn't vote in 2016, who would wade through Hell fire to do it in 2020.

    I think that one of the primary reasons the SFBIC was able to win 2016 was that Hillary was seen as a shoo in, and people didn't bother to vote.

    2020?

    I don't see that as a problem.
    Rattling the teacups.

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    Quote Originally Posted by oznabrag View Post
    In 2016 you didn't have the level of engagement we do now.

    Trump has his base, but it has actually shrunk, and there are a LOT of people who didn't vote in 2016, who would wade through Hell fire to do it in 2020.

    I think that one of the primary reasons the SFBIC was able to win 2016 was that Hillary was seen as a shoo in, and people didn't bother to vote.

    2020?

    I don't see that as a problem.
    I see some big donors distancing themselves from Trump. But his base voters? We don't know exactly what is going on there until the day after election day. Trump's strength was not detected in pre-election polling in 2016. Why would you assume differently in 2020?

    Yes, Hillary lost because people saw her as a shoo-in; And you want to repeat that mistake?

    Yes, I would like Biden to win in a landslide. But unless and until he is declared the winner, I think zero assumptions should be made, nothing taken for granted. Including not alienating the 30% of USA adults that own firearms.
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    Default Re: Brandishing Firearms

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob (oh, THAT Bob) View Post
    I see some big donors distancing themselves from Trump. But his base voters? We don't know exactly what is going on there until the day after election day. Trump's strength was not detected in pre-election polling in 2016. Why would you assume differently in 2020?

    Yes, Hillary lost because people saw her as a shoo-in; And you want to repeat that mistake?

    Yes, I would like Biden to win in a landslide. But unless and until he is declared the winner, I think zero assumptions should be made, nothing taken for granted. Including not alienating the 30% of USA adults that own firearms.
    What a sick, sick, sick society. The 2nd interpretation is a time bomb ticking away and may one day go off.

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    Default Re: Brandishing Firearms

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob (oh, THAT Bob) View Post
    When he was governor. Flipped when he ran for president. Got awards at the NRA convention. "
    Until he and Brady were shot

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bob (oh, THAT Bob) View Post
    You haven't met my dad. Too old and stubborn to change. It's gotten worse in recent years.
    The unlikelihood of change is plain enough. The two questions are, how many of them are there, and is the number increasing or decreasing. How many in each category, e.g. from zero, like your dad, to 10% likelihood; from 10% to 20%, etc.

    That's how the political plank should be decided.
    Had every Athenian citizen been a Socrates, every Athenian assembly would still have been a mob.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Osborne Russell View Post
    The unlikelihood of change is plain enough. The two questions are, how many of them are there, and is the number increasing or decreasing. How many in each category, e.g. from zero, like your dad, to 10% likelihood; from 10% to 20%, etc.

    That's how the political plank should be decided.
    Here's my calculation:

    Scenario A:

    • Biden wins.
    • Enacts gun control.
    • Conservatives say, "Hahaha... suckers!"
    • Weapons are confiscated and melted down.
    • Conservatives weaponize the gun issue as always. It's their dream issue.
    • Democrats lose in 2024.
    • Winning republicans repeal gun control measures.
    • Gun makers sell a whole bunch of new guns, making wild profits.
    • The liberal agenda slides even further back in its steady retreat since 1981.


    Sound good?

    Scenario B:

    • Biden wins.
    • Does not enact any gun control and promises to not do so.
    • Performs deep analysis on the root causes of all violence, not just gun violence.
    • Determines root cause of violence is anger and crime. Solutions involve everything liberals tout, like good domestic jobs, education, housing, medical and mental health care, addressing police abuse and racism, vast economic inequality, corruption, et al; Biden runs the table on addressing serious social ills. People become less angry.
    • Violence begins to decline, not overnight, but it begins. Standard of living begins to improve.
    • Democrats win big in 2024, and continue reforms.


    Pick one. ONE. Because if you look at the history of US presidential elections since 1980 and the use of guns as an issue by republicans, you can only chose one of the above.
    Last edited by Bob (oh, THAT Bob); 08-03-2020 at 02:06 AM.
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    Default Re: Brandishing Firearms

    No need for just one of those, could have universal background checks including at gun shows and similar measures for instance.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jimmy W View Post
    No need for just one of those, could have universal background checks including at gun shows and similar measures for instance.
    Yeah I agree with that, background checks for private sales because it's consistent with purchases from a dealer. (The "gun show loophole" is a misnomer as gun shows have dealers who are required to do background checks, the issue is with private sellers standing outside or walking in the gun show or just advertising in the newspaper or online. And only for rifles and shotguns, pistols already require a background check, even for private sales.) That won't lose gun-owning voters. What will lose them? Taking guns from gun-owning voters. Then they become "former gun-owning voters". And that makes them angry.
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    Scenario 2 sounds good, but point 4? You cannot afford it, and anyway the gun lobby would see it for what it is.
    But I reckon nothing will change re guns whilst the duopoly stands, no matter who wins gun sales will go up.

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    Default Re: Brandishing Firearms

    whilst the duopoly stands
    Nah. Too cynical by about 80%.

    Look, guns as a political issue in the US is a classic example of an odd characteristic of some kinds of liberal democracy - feature or bug, take your pick. Here's how it works:
    - Most people want greater restrictions on gun ownership, particularly laws designed to keep those who've proven violent from having guns, or to keep murderous lunatics from killing large numbers of people.
    - Most people don't have much to do with guns in their daily lives. Using myself as an example, I've never fired a gun, and have not the slightest need or interest in owning one. In more rural areas, there are a fair number of hunting rifles, but for most people it's not a big deal.
    - For most of those who want greater restrictions on guns, it's one issue among many that they care about. If I were crowned emperor, I doubt it would make the top ten on my initial to-do list.
    - For a fairly small subset of the US population (small by percentage, but fairly large in absolute numbers - 10% as a guess?) mostly-unrestricted access to guns is a VERY BIG DEAL, 'pry it out of my cold dead fingers', defending freedom and justice and all that's right. They sincerely believe this, and are quite paranoid (by my standards) about any further restrictions. They vote.
    - The conservative party, for the last 50 or 60 years the Republicans, caters to them and relies on their votes. Their enthusiasm partly compensates for their numbers.

    Enthusiasm compensating for numbers is one way a minority can have power disproportionate to their numbers in most democracies, and get some of what they want despite the lukewarm objections of the majority. Feature or bug? Probably depends on the issue.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Keith Wilson View Post

    - Most people don't have much to do with guns in their daily lives. Using myself as an example, I've never fired a gun, and have not the slightest need or interest in owning one. In more rural areas, there are a fair number of hunting rifles, but for most people it's not a big deal.
    .......
    - For a fairly small subset of the US population (small by percentage, but fairly large in absolute numbers - 10% as a guess?) mostly-unrestricted access to guns is a VERY BIG DEAL, 'pry it out of my cold dead fingers', defending freedom and justice and all that's right. They sincerely believe this, and are quite paranoid (by my standards) about any further restrictions. They vote....
    Keith, I don't know what rural areas you are familiar with, but here the hunters and the "cold, dead fingers" group are the same, and numerous. Don't assume that gun control is no big deal in such places.

    There is a big urban vs. rural distinction between firearms as evil weapons and firearms as tools. The sound of gunfire here just means that a neighbor has a coyote problem, or a rabid raccoon. It's commonplace and not a cause for alarm. It's a good thing the population here is heavily armed, because there are only a handful of deputy sheriffs patrolling a 1000 square mile county. Law enforcement response can be slow, but any violent criminal will go elsewhere for easy pickins.

    There is a strong tradition of self-reliance and taking care of problems on your own, and resentment of any government that tries to decide what's best.
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    The issues of secession and the Second Amendment bear some alarming similarities.

    The South thought that they were free to rebel against the Constitution, and the 2A crowd believes that they have a DUTY to rebel against the Constitution.

    Let that ramble around in yer brain pan for a minute or two, and tell me a second civil war is impossible.
    Rattling the teacups.

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    Quote Originally Posted by UCanoe_2 View Post
    Keith, I don't know what rural areas you are familiar with, but here the hunters and the "cold, dead fingers" group are the same, and numerous. Don't assume that gun control is no big deal in such places.

    There is a big urban vs. rural distinction between firearms as evil weapons and firearms as tools. The sound of gunfire here just means that a neighbor has a coyote problem, or a rabid raccoon. It's commonplace and not a cause for alarm. It's a good thing the population here is heavily armed, because there are only a handful of deputy sheriffs patrolling a 1000 square mile county. Law enforcement response can be slow, but any violent criminal will go elsewhere for easy pickins.

    There is a strong tradition of self-reliance and taking care of problems on your own, and resentment of any government that tries to decide what's best.
    Same here in this country. Rural areas see guns as tools, and get a bit pissed when urban politicos decide they shouldn’t have them. I have a gun of one form or another with me almost every day. Could be predator control, hunting, defence from big cats/bears, putting down farm animals, or just recreation (target practice). I also have 3-4 knives, an ax, rope and other tools. My daily life isn’t an office, coffee houses, malls or rec centres, and most that I know are more like me than like Keith.

  35. #105
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
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    Cantăo - Brazil
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    Default Re: Brandishing Firearms

    I have a gun of one form or another with me almost every day.
    Funny. I live way out in the bush, 6 km from the nearest human beings, in a place full of jaguars and pumas, in a crime-ridden country. I never have a gun with me. I don't even take a knife with me to walk in the bush - just a stick, and a companion if it's dark. I have had firearms brandished at me by poachers and such, but I have never felt to urge to brandish back.

    Perhaps I am a fool, or perhaps I trust my Jedi mind tricks...

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