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Thread: Brandishing Firearms

  1. #1
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    Default Brandishing Firearms

    Is a Felony...

    Felony charges have been filed against a St. Louis couple who pointed guns at protesters marching past their home last month in an episode that was captured on video and drew the attention of a divided nation, including President Trump.
    The couple, Mark and Patricia McCloskey, were charged on Monday by the Circuit Attorney’s Office in St. Louis with unlawful use of a weapon, exhibiting. The charge is a Class E felony that carries a possible penalty of up to four years in prison.
    The circuit attorney in St. Louis, Kimberly M. Gardner, said the couple created a dangerous situation involving “peaceful, unarmed protesters.”
    “It is illegal to wave weapons in a threatening manner at those participating in nonviolent protest,” she said in a statement.

    https://www.nytimes.com/2020/07/20/u...gtype=Homepage

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    Default Re: Brandishing Firearms

    Hmm, could be an interesting development with wider implications.

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    Default Re: Brandishing Firearms

    We can hope for that

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    Default Re: Brandishing Firearms

    What is the legal definition of 'brandishing'?
    And is this man 'brandishing'?

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    Default Re: Brandishing Firearms

    Mulford Act - Named after Republican assemblyman Don Mulford, and signed into law by then governor of California, Ronald Reagan, the bill was crafted in response to members of the Black Panther Party who were lawfully conducting armed patrols of Oakland neighborhoods, in what would later be termed copwatching.
    This post is temporary and my disappear at the discretion of the managment

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    Default Re: Brandishing Firearms

    Quote Originally Posted by Canoeyawl View Post
    Is a Felony...

    Felony charges have been filed against a St. Louis couple who pointed guns at protesters marching past their home last month in an episode that was captured on video and drew the attention of a divided nation, including President Trump.
    The couple, Mark and Patricia McCloskey, were charged on Monday by the Circuit Attorney’s Office in St. Louis with unlawful use of a weapon, exhibiting. The charge is a Class E felony that carries a possible penalty of up to four years in prison.
    The circuit attorney in St. Louis, Kimberly M. Gardner, said the couple created a dangerous situation involving “peaceful, unarmed protesters.”
    “It is illegal to wave weapons in a threatening manner at those participating in nonviolent protest,” she said in a statement.

    https://www.nytimes.com/2020/07/20/u...gtype=Homepage
    Paywall. But both of those folks are attorneys if I recall, so felony convictions may end their careers.
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    Default Re: Brandishing Firearms

    Quote Originally Posted by skuthorp View Post
    What is the legal definition of 'brandishing'?
    And is this man 'brandishing'?
    Was that during that thing with the right wingers who wanted to graze their livestock free on federal land?
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    Default Re: Brandishing Firearms

    Whilst searching for a definition of Brandishing I came across this: https://www.usacarry.com/what-does-brandishing-mean
    The Algorithm Is Watching

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    Default Re: Brandishing Firearms

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Bow View Post
    Whilst searching for a definition of Brandishing I came across this: https://www.usacarry.com/what-does-brandishing-mean
    Very good article. I completely agree. But it also means that in a life threatening altercation, you need to be able to draw the weapon, from concealment, quickly and effectively, take the safety off (on an automatic) aim and fire. Which runs completely counter to my philosophy on everything, of early preparedness. But no question that the author is correct. It means choosing carefully on the pistol, holster, and draw-and-fire practice frequently, as well as extensive mental preparedness and drills, and de-escalation training. Another strong case for extensive training for concealed carry.
    When you can take the pebble from my hand, it will be time for you to leave.

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    Default Re: Brandishing Firearms

    Way better to not have one. It is a false sense of power and security.

    Not that I dislike guns, but putting yourself where you show your hand is just stupid

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    Default Re: Brandishing Firearms

    And of course the dingbat, Wingnut governor is already talking about issuing a pardon.


    Jeff C

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    Default Re: Brandishing Firearms

    The Royal Extra-Judicial Powers are spread rather wide it seems. Why bother with a trial at all?

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    Default Brandishing Firearms

    Quote Originally Posted by skuthorp View Post
    What is the legal definition of 'brandishing'?
    And is this man 'brandishing'?
    Probably not brandishing... unless the victim(s) are aware that he's aiming a weapon at them.

    In Missouri, the offence is "Unlawful use of weapons".

    Missouri Revised Statues Section 571.030 (4) makes a felony, to whit:

    "A person commits the crime of unlawful use of weapons if he or she knowingly... (4) Exhibits, in the presence of one or more persons, any weapon readily capable of lethal use in an angry or threatening manner; or..."

    Most other states have similar language in the Statues.

    It's interesting to note that in Missouri - 571.030 (8) - that simple carry, concealed or open, is likewise a felony in the following places/situations:

    "A person commits the crime of unlawful use of weapons if he or she knowingly... (8) Carries a firearm or any other weapon readily capable of lethal use into any church or place where people have assembled for worship, or into any election precinct on any election day, or into any building owned or occupied by any agency of the federal government, state government, or political subdivision thereof; or ..."

    "Precinct" is a geographic subdivision, and so not a polling place. So in the State of Missouri, carrying firearms anywhere is arguably illegal on Election Day... unless you can magically find a place that is not within an election precinct.

    In Washington State, it's a gross misdeamor. The language is

    "RCW 9.41.270

    Weapons apparently capable of producing bodily harm—Unlawful carrying or handling—Penalty—Exceptions.

    (1) It shall be unlawful for any person to carry, exhibit, display, or draw any firearm, dagger, sword, knife or other cutting or stabbing instrument, club, or any other weapon apparently capable of producing bodily harm, in a manner, under circumstances, and at a time and place that either manifests an intent to intimidate another or that warrants alarm for the safety of other persons."
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Bow View Post
    Whilst searching for a definition of Brandishing I came across this: https://www.usacarry.com/what-does-brandishing-mean


    Quote Originally Posted by Bob (oh, THAT Bob) View Post
    Very good article. I completely agree. But it also means that in a life threatening altercation, you need to be able to draw the weapon, from concealment, quickly and effectively, take the safety off (on an automatic) aim and fire. Which runs completely counter to my philosophy on everything, of early preparedness. But no question that the author is correct. It means choosing carefully on the pistol, holster, and draw-and-fire practice frequently, as well as extensive mental preparedness and drills, and de-escalation training. Another strong case for extensive training for concealed carry.

    Also an argument against the notion of threatening with a weapon. - you keep it holstered/sheathed... until you actually need it. And then it's drawn and used. No "back down jack or I'll shoot!"

    The problem with drawing a weapon, regardless of who happens to be the aggressor is that the Other Guy™️ has to assume that you intend to use it... and respond/react accordingly. So by drawing a weapon, you have instantly ratcheted up the probability, by an order of magnitude, of the encounter devolving into the use of deadly force - presumably what you were trying to avoid by drawing the weapon in the first place.
    You would not enjoy Nietzsche, sir. He is fundamentally unsound. — P.G. Wodehouse (Carry On, Jeeves)

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    Default Re: Brandishing Firearms

    Quote Originally Posted by Nicholas Carey View Post
    Also an argument against the notion of threatening with a weapon. - you keep it holstered/sheathed... until you actually need it. And then it's drawn and used. No "back down jack or I'll shoot!"

    The problem with drawing a weapon, regardless of who happens to be the aggressor is that the Other Guy™️ has to assume that you intend to use it... and respond/react accordingly. So by drawing a weapon, you have instantly ratcheted up the probability, by an order of magnitude, of the encounter devolving into the use of deadly force - presumably what you were trying to avoid by drawing the weapon in the first place.
    Well that's why, even as a "gun owner", I advocate addressing the root causes of violence, not counteracting it with more violence and incarceration. Having said that, I looked up specifics on Biden's platforms today. Mostly good. However...

    His specifics on gun violence alone could lose him this election, and Trump's going to use that to the max. Totally wrong. Does not address the root causes of all violence. There is little gun violence in countries and cities with high gun ownership but are prosperous and have good social support systems. Only thing I agree with is closing the gun show loophole, that private sales must pass background check and not just sales from registered dealers, based on consistency. The whole gun violence issue could be used in Biden's FAVOR for the rest of the agenda, to run the table on all social issues which are root causes of violence (everything). Instead, it may sink him. The dems STILL cannot see how republicans have weaponized that issue for the past 40 years. Biden's position is exactly what corrupt republicans and the NRA want. They don't fear Biden, they LOVE it when he says these things, it HELPS them.

    Again, I'm voting for BIDEN! But this is going to hurt him, not help him:

    https://joebiden.com/gunsafety/
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    Default Re: Brandishing Firearms

    Quote Originally Posted by Nicholas Carey View Post
    Also an argument against the notion of threatening with a weapon. - you keep it holstered/sheathed... until you actually need it. And then it's drawn and used. No "back down jack or I'll shoot!"

    The problem with drawing a weapon, regardless of who happens to be the aggressor is that the Other Guy™️ has to assume that you intend to use it... and respond/react accordingly. So by drawing a weapon, you have instantly ratcheted up the probability, by an order of magnitude, of the encounter devolving into the use of deadly force - presumably what you were trying to avoid by drawing the weapon in the first place.
    in that case the character pictured in #4 with a scope on government employees, amongst others, could actually have been shot as an immediate threat to the lives of those in his sights?

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    Default Re: Brandishing Firearms

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob (oh, THAT Bob) View Post
    Biden's position is exactly what corrupt republicans and the NRA want. They don't fear Biden, they LOVE it when he says these things, it HELPS them.
    How so?
    Had every Athenian citizen been a Socrates, every Athenian assembly would still have been a mob.

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    Default Re: Brandishing Firearms

    I thought it was a violent break-in, not a peaceful protest.

    627E578F-98B4-4C79-B581-2A96F04155FC.jpg

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    Default Re: Brandishing Firearms

    Quote Originally Posted by Nicholas Carey View Post
    Also an argument against the notion of threatening with a weapon. - you keep it holstered/sheathed... until you actually need it. And then it's drawn and used. No "back down jack or I'll shoot!"

    The problem with drawing a weapon, regardless of who happens to be the aggressor is that the Other Guy™️ has to assume that you intend to use it... and respond/react accordingly. So by drawing a weapon, you have instantly ratcheted up the probability, by an order of magnitude, of the encounter devolving into the use of deadly force - presumably what you were trying to avoid by drawing the weapon in the first place.
    Yep.

    The same principle applies to each step of escalation in the use of force.
    Had every Athenian citizen been a Socrates, every Athenian assembly would still have been a mob.

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  20. #20
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    Default Re: Brandishing Firearms

    Brandishing firearms

    Brandishing firearms

    Won't you come brandishing firearms with me?



    . . .

    Sorry.

    Sometimes the rhythm of a phrase hits me brain pan in an odd sort of way, an' such like as the above comes forth.
    Rattling the teacups.

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    Default Re: Brandishing Firearms

    Quote Originally Posted by bluedog225 View Post
    I thought it was a violent break-in, not a peaceful protest.

    627E578F-98B4-4C79-B581-2A96F04155FC.jpg
    Wrong narrative, they we're “peaceful, unarmed protesters.” ask any liberal here.

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    Default Re: Brandishing Firearms

    I take this as an encouraging sign at a time when guns are far too prominent. It is far past time for a little push back.

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    Default Re: Brandishing Firearms

    Quote Originally Posted by bluedog225 View Post
    I thought it was a violent break-in, not a peaceful protest.

    627E578F-98B4-4C79-B581-2A96F04155FC.jpg
    There are countless videos showing and news reports stating that when the protesters entered they did so through an intact, undamaged gate.
    You might want to ask yourself when and by whom that gate was made to look like that, because it didn't happen during the protest.

  24. #24
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    Default Re: Brandishing Firearms

    Yeah. Are these the same news reports saying that the protests are mostly peaceful?

    3003EAE2-3142-4F94-8A61-072E3BC3DD08.jpg

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    Default Re: Brandishing Firearms

    Quote Originally Posted by bluedog225 View Post
    Yeah. Are these the same news reports saying that the protests are mostly peaceful?

    3003EAE2-3142-4F94-8A61-072E3BC3DD08.jpg
    Were the people in this picture in that neighborhood that day?

    Jeff C

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    Default Re: Brandishing Firearms

    Quote Originally Posted by leikec View Post
    Were the people in this picture in that neighborhood that day?

    Jeff C
    Nah.

    Tom doesn't care about that, he just wants to muddy the water he's carrying for the fascists.
    Rattling the teacups.

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    Default Re: Brandishing Firearms

    Quote Originally Posted by bluedog225 View Post
    Yeah. Are these the same news reports saying that the protests are mostly peaceful?

    3003EAE2-3142-4F94-8A61-072E3BC3DD08.jpg
    That is a rather disingenuous response give that it has absolutely nothing to do with St Louis. Look at the evidence, don't play what about.

    Here, watch it for yourself.
    https://twitter.com/alexiszotos/stat...07426934616065
    Calm, peaceful people walking through an undamaged gate.

    Your picture of that gate came from the McKlosky's lawyer.
    Last edited by Old Dryfoot; 07-21-2020 at 09:39 AM.

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    Default Re: Brandishing Firearms

    It's amazing how being black in a neighborhood in St. Louis, MO can be a valid reason for a white person to commit assault with a loaded weapon.

    It's been many years, but I've ridden my bike in that neighborhood. Nobody threatened me with a loaded weapon.



    Jeff C

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    Default Re: Brandishing Firearms

    Is there any video of the gate actually being broken? The street is not gated, so the protesters could just walk in to reach the mayor's house. It looks to me as though whoever it was that broke the gate was not doing it to gain access to anything, but simply to make trouble for everyone else.

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    Default Re: Brandishing Firearms

    I don't think you can shoot someone for breaking a gate. Definitely not, and probably you can't even point your gun at them and threaten to shoot.
    Maybe in Florida?

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    Default Re: Brandishing Firearms

    Quote Originally Posted by bluedog225 View Post
    Yeah. Are these the same news reports saying that the protests are mostly peaceful?

    3003EAE2-3142-4F94-8A61-072E3BC3DD08.jpg
    That is called looting, not protesting.

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    Default Re: Brandishing Firearms

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob (oh, THAT Bob) View Post
    Paywall. But both of those folks are attorneys if I recall, so felony convictions may end their careers.
    Quote Originally Posted by Canoeyawl View Post
    Is a Felony...

    Felony charges have been filed against a St. Louis couple who pointed guns at protesters marching past their home last month in an episode that was captured on video and drew the attention of a divided nation, including President Trump.
    The couple, Mark and Patricia McCloskey, were charged on Monday by the Circuit Attorney’s Office in St. Louis with unlawful use of a weapon, exhibiting. The charge is a Class E felony that carries a possible penalty of up to four years in prison.
    The circuit attorney in St. Louis, Kimberly M. Gardner, said the couple created a dangerous situation involving “peaceful, unarmed protesters.”
    “It is illegal to wave weapons in a threatening manner at those participating in nonviolent protest,” she said in a statement.

    https://www.nytimes.com/2020/07/20/u...gtype=Homepage
    Quote Originally Posted by leikec View Post
    And of course the dingbat, Wingnut governor is already talking about issuing a pardon.


    Jeff C

    Just remember, to accept a Pardon, you have to accept that you were guilty. If they were indeed attorneys, their careers are over unless they come out completely innocent.
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    Default Re: Brandishing Firearms

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob (oh, THAT Bob) View Post
    Well that's why, even as a "gun owner", I advocate addressing the root causes of violence, not counteracting it with more violence and incarceration. Having said that, I looked up specifics on Biden's platforms today. Mostly good. However...

    His specifics on gun violence alone could lose him this election, and Trump's going to use that to the max. y/
    I completely disagree. The NRA can’t even afford free coffee in its break room. I think we’re in a completely different political reality that we were a few years ago.
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    Default Re: Brandishing Firearms

    Quote Originally Posted by Old Dryfoot View Post
    There are countless videos showing and news reports stating that when the protesters entered they did so through an intact, undamaged gate.
    You might want to ask yourself when and by whom that gate was made to look like that, because it didn't happen during the protest.
    Don't be daft. Bluedog would have to admit to being dishonest to follow that advice.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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    Default Re: Brandishing Firearms

    Quote Originally Posted by Osborne Russell View Post
    How so?
    Quote Originally Posted by CK 17 View Post
    I completely disagree. The NRA can’t even afford free coffee in its break room. I think we’re in a completely different political reality that we were a few years ago.
    Day after last election. Talking to dad on the phone.
    Dad: "Of course I voted for Trump."
    Me: "Uh, you mean Hillary?"
    Dad: No, Trump."
    Me: "But you said a couple months ago Trump was crazy!"
    Dad: "He is crazy. But Hillary wants to take my guns away."
    Me: *facepalm*

    Even as a gun owner, I look at the bigger picture of things. I voted for Obama, twice, despite the rantings of the NRA, of which I'm a life member (both dad and I used to compete in marksmanship at the national level, with a semi auto rifles in "service rifle" class). But halfway through Obama's second term, he hinted at banning semi-auto rifles ("assault weapons"). What happened? a) Sales of such rifles SKYROCKETED. A guy online said, "Man that black guy sure knows how to sell guns." and b) I said, oh hell, the dems are going to lose the next election. All through Obama's terms, republicans would get on their knees before bedtime and pray, "Please let Obama try to push gun control. Please let Obama try to push gun control." And it must have worked! And look what happened!

    I held my nose and voted for Hillary. But she still lost. Because of people like my dad.

    See how that works?
    When you can take the pebble from my hand, it will be time for you to leave.

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