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Thread: Something I don't know how to do!

  1. #36
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    Default Re: Something I don't know how to do!

    Quote Originally Posted by Peerie Maa View Post
    OK, wrong photo.



    Personally I find the steel frame coping saw more versatile.
    Me too!
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    For hand coping, the Knew coping saws are supposed to be very nice. The frame is pretty much a truss, so you can load the blade up with all the tension in the world.

    Seen them at woodworking shows... but $150+ is a little rich for my blood.

    https://www.knewconcepts.com/Coping-saws.php

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  3. #38
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    Default Re: Something I don't know how to do!

    The titanium Knew Concept models cost even more. Well over $200.
    I like my wooden coping saw as I can get more tension on the blade. Though I’ve coped hundreds of joints just fine with the regular metal ones.

  4. #39
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    Default Re: Something I don't know how to do!

    Quote Originally Posted by Peerie Maa View Post
    Nice frame saw.
    This

    is a coping saw. They take a finer blade and can do tighter turns.
    I am always trying to learn something new. I have got those small coping saws, too. They have a blade width of 3-4 mm and a length of 130 mm. My frame saws have got a blade width of 40 mm and a length of 600-700 mm. The saw in my photo is somewhere in between, with a blade width of 8 mm and a length of 370 mm. I would like to learn about the terminology , but I have built and used it to cut curved boat parts with radii of down to approximately 20 to 30 mm. The blade has got a Japanese pull saw design and the teeth are set rather wide, which helps a lot with taking close turns. The cuts are not as smooth as with other designs of Japanese saws, though. It is a matter of horses for courses, more or less.

  5. #40
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    Default Re: Something I don't know how to do!

    Quote Originally Posted by SOF64 View Post
    I am always trying to learn something new. I have got those small coping saws, too. They have a blade width of 3-4 mm and a length of 130 mm. My frame saws have got a blade width of 40 mm and a length of 600-700 mm. The saw in my photo is somewhere in between, with a blade width of 8 mm and a length of 370 mm. I would like to learn about the terminology , but I have built and used it to cut curved boat parts with radii of down to approximately 20 to 30 mm. The blade has got a Japanese pull saw design and the teeth are set rather wide, which helps a lot with taking close turns. The cuts are not as smooth as with other designs of Japanese saws, though. It is a matter of horses for courses, more or less.
    Just for fun, I had a look at the English-language website of the online shop where I bought the saw blade years ago. They call that kind of saw a frame saw with a jig blade. I don't know whether this settles the question of terminology or whether it adds to the confusion.

  6. #41
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    Default Re: Something I don't know how to do!

    Never used a pull saw except on a two man crosscut, but I would imagine using a pull action on coving would be risking damaging the face surface?

  7. #42
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    Default Re: Something I don't know how to do!

    Quote Originally Posted by SOF64 View Post
    Just for fun, I had a look at the English-language website of the online shop where I bought the saw blade years ago. They call that kind of saw a frame saw with a jig blade. I don't know whether this settles the question of terminology or whether it adds to the confusion.
    Believe me, it adds to the confusion.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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  8. #43
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    Default Re: Something I don't know how to do!

    Quote Originally Posted by Peerie Maa View Post
    Believe me, it adds to the confusion.
    You keep motivating me to do further research. I have now looked up the German name 'Schweifsäge' in an old-school bilingual printed dictionary of industrial technology. It has supplied the translation 'turning saw'. When I enter that in Google I get pictures of the correct kind of saws. (I often use that method to check technical translations when I doubt online translations and dictionaries). So, how do you feel about 'turning saw' as a useful name?

  9. #44
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    Default Re: Something I don't know how to do!

    Sounds like coping to me.

  10. #45
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    Default Re: Something I don't know how to do!

    Quote Originally Posted by SOF64 View Post
    You keep motivating me to do further research. I have now looked up the German name 'Schweifsäge' in an old-school bilingual printed dictionary of industrial technology. It has supplied the translation 'turning saw'. When I enter that in Google I get pictures of the correct kind of saws. (I often use that method to check technical translations when I doubt online translations and dictionaries). So, how do you feel about 'turning saw' as a useful name?
    A bit broad brush,
    There are several saws differentiated by the width of the blade and the fineness and radius of the cuts.
    A scroll saw is the finest and comes both bench mounted and freehand


    A fret saw

    Coping saws we have already seen, as with the wooden frame saw.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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  11. #46
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    Default Re: Something I don't know how to do!

    Of course the middle one is sold as a jewelers saw frame.

    ”coping saws” in the us are slotted for use with pinned blades. Jewelers saws, scroll saws, fret saws etc are usually designed for flat blades.

    the bent metal coping saws can be difficult to apply enough blade tension with.
    Last edited by Hugh Conway; 08-03-2020 at 03:15 PM.

  12. #47
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    Default Re: Something I don't know how to do!

    Quote Originally Posted by Hugh Conway View Post
    Of course the middle one is sold as a jewelers saw frame.
    Yes, I have one, and the piercing saw blades for metal. I last used it for sawing out the components for the models that I posted on here.
    I think that keen woodworkers now use one of the plethora of electricity powered scroll saws that allows you to spill blood on your work from the fingertips of both hands.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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  13. #48
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    Default Re: Something I don't know how to do!

    Quote Originally Posted by Peerie Maa View Post
    A bit broad brush,
    There are several saws differentiated by the width of the blade and the fineness and radius of the cuts.
    A scroll saw is the finest and comes both bench mounted and freehand


    A fret saw

    Coping saws we have already seen, as with the wooden frame saw.
    I haven't got a problem with the different saw designs. I have got all of them in my collection of tools, and I work with them and know how to use them. The problem is about English (US-American, Canadian, Australian?) terminology and differentiation of designs. You are working on my language competence, and I am grateful for every bit of information.

  14. #49
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    Default Re: Something I don't know how to do!

    Quote Originally Posted by SOF64 View Post
    I haven't got a problem with the different saw designs. I have got all of them in my collection of tools, and I work with them and know how to use them. The problem is about English (US-American, Canadian, Australian?) terminology and differentiation of designs. You are working on my language competence, and I am grateful for every bit of information.
    You do realize that since our colonial cousins in the Americas left the fold, they no longer speak English, so the terminology may not be common over those long distances.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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  15. #50
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    Default Re: Something I don't know how to do!

    Quote Originally Posted by Peerie Maa View Post
    You do realize that since our colonial cousins in the Americas left the fold, they no longer speak English, so the terminology may not be common over those long distances.
    Pointed, but correct, local usage and terminology does vary a lot. I'm looking to buy a decent coping saw, the ones in the hardware stores are very poor and our only really good specialist woodworking tool shop has only the jewellers version which is not heavy enough to deal with some of the work I want it for. I prefer to support local businesses but will probably end up buying mail order from someone like Kunz, Veritas or Lie Nielsen.

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  16. #51
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    Default Re: Something I don't know how to do!

    Quote Originally Posted by Peerie Maa View Post
    You do realize that since our colonial cousins in the Americas left the fold, they no longer speak English, so the terminology may not be common over those long distances.
    The proverbial people separated by a common language - and a German trying to find common ground for meaningful communication. That's going to be a cake walk.

  17. #52
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    Default Re: Something I don't know how to do!

    Quote Originally Posted by Peerie Maa View Post
    Yes, I have one, and the piercing saw blades for metal. I last used it for sawing out the components for the models that I posted on here.
    I think that keen woodworkers now use one of the plethora of electricity powered scroll saws that allows you to spill blood on your work from the fingertips of both hands.
    the portable scroll saws (“Sabre saws” “jig saws”), not the stand mounted power driven scroll saw that can be quite big & heavy and are quite cheap used

    different professIons have different names too. A guitar luthier “fret saw” will be a western backsaw or Japanese dozuki with a blade of suitable width for cutting fret slots
    Last edited by Hugh Conway; 08-03-2020 at 04:42 PM.

  18. #53
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    Default Re: Something I don't know how to do!

    Quote Originally Posted by Hugh Conway View Post
    the portable scroll saws (“Sabre saws” “jig saws”), not the stand mounted power driven scroll saw that can be quite big & heavy and are quite cheap used

    different professIons have different names too. A guitar luthier “fret saw” will be a western backsaw or Japanese dozuki with a blade of suitable width for cutting fret slots
    Sabre saws and jig saws cannot do scrollwork. I am surprised that you suggested such.
    This thread has morphed into naming saws with differing thickness and width blades. So a luthiers fret saw will be different from a backsaw that is a tenon saw or a backsaw that is a dovetail saw.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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  19. #54
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    Default Re: Something I don't know how to do!

    Quote Originally Posted by Peerie Maa View Post
    Sabre saws and jig saws cannot do scrollwork. I am surprised that you suggested such.
    This thread has morphed into naming saws with differing thickness and width blades. So a luthiers fret saw will be different from a backsaw that is a tenon saw or a backsaw that is a dovetail saw.
    We need to apologize to Denise for the thread drift, but apart from that I would love to see you elaborating on the subject - preferably with illustrations.

  20. #55
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    Default Re: Something I don't know how to do!

    Quote Originally Posted by SOF64 View Post
    We need to apologize to Denise for the thread drift, but apart from that I would love to see you elaborating on the subject - preferably with illustrations.
    Back saws get complicated as makers produced full-size versions for craftsmen, including a deeper blade for use in a mitre jig, and lighter versions for amateurs, a slightly smaller lighter Gentleman's version and an even smaller ladies version.
    That said a tenon saw was the standard backsaw,
    This is one of the best tenon saws, a brass backed Disston.

    This is a nice R.Groves & Sons, Sheffield , inscribed ' Silver Steel , Elastic Spring Temper , Warranted Good '. dovetail saw.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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  21. #56
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    Default Re: Something I don't know how to do!

    Quote Originally Posted by Peerie Maa View Post
    Back saws get complicated as makers produced full-size versions for craftsmen, including a deeper blade for use in a mitre jig, and lighter versions for amateurs, a slightly smaller lighter Gentleman's version and an even smaller ladies version.
    That said a tenon saw was the standard backsaw,
    This is one of the best tenon saws, a brass backed Disston.

    This is a nice R.Groves & Sons, Sheffield , inscribed ' Silver Steel , Elastic Spring Temper , Warranted Good '. dovetail saw.
    This is amazing craftsmanship, and it seems to be designed for longevity. As far as I can see, Lie-Nielsen and Veritas still offer comparable designs. However, as I haven't got any of these at hand, I cut tenons with a Japanese Dozuki saw. Can you tell us about the respective advantages and disadvantages?

  22. #57
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    Default Re: Something I don't know how to do!

    Quote Originally Posted by SOF64 View Post
    This is amazing craftsmanship, and it seems to be designed for longevity. As far as I can see, Lie-Nielsen and Veritas still offer comparable designs. However, as I haven't got any of these at hand, I cut tenons with a Japanese Dozuki saw. Can you tell us about the respective advantages and disadvantages?
    Different traditions and philosophies. Occidentals push, the Japanese pull.
    We had saws with teeth for cross-cutting and for ripping, panel saws, rip saws, and for real dedicated ripping thumbhole rip saws.


    When it came to converting timber we used a pit saw and sawed up and down.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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  23. #58
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    Default Re: Something I don't know how to do!

    Whilst the Japanese sit and saw horizontally
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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    Default Re: Something I don't know how to do!

    Quote Originally Posted by SOF64 View Post
    You keep motivating me to do further research. I have now looked up the German name 'Schweifsäge' in an old-school bilingual printed dictionary of industrial technology. It has supplied the translation 'turning saw'. When I enter that in Google I get pictures of the correct kind of saws. (I often use that method to check technical translations when I doubt online translations and dictionaries). So, how do you feel about 'turning saw' as a useful name?
    That’s what I called it back in post #32!

    Quote Originally Posted by StevenBauer View Post
    The true beauty of the coped joint is it can fit perfectly even if the room is out of square. Not possible with a mitered joint without recutting.

    The saw I made is definitely a coping saw. It uses regular 6.5” coping saw blades. I like the Pégas brand ones from Switzerland. I also made a standard sized one sometimes called a frame saw but usually called a turning saw. It uses 12” blades. Frame saws have wider blades. Usually longer, too.

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    Default Re: Something I don't know how to do!

    Steven, clear some space in your pm's...

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    Default Re: Something I don't know how to do!

    Quote Originally Posted by StevenBauer View Post
    That’s what I called it back in post #32!
    Thank you, Steven. I had forgotten about that. Yours is definitely a very beautiful design.

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    Default Re: Something I don't know how to do!

    Quote Originally Posted by Canoeyawl View Post
    Steven, clear some space in your pm's...
    Done.

  28. #63
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    Default Re: Something I don't know how to do!

    Quote Originally Posted by Peerie Maa View Post
    Whilst the Japanese sit and saw horizontally
    Thank you for the videos, Nick. I fear if such a whaleback saw came my way I couldn't resist. The biggest that I have is a Genki Temagari for green wood, and it is very efficient and pleasant to use.

    71FydlD+G0L._AC_SL1500_.jpg

  29. #64
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    Default Re: Something I don't know how to do!

    Quote Originally Posted by SOF64 View Post
    Thank you for the videos, Nick. I fear if such a whaleback saw came my way I couldn't resist. The biggest that I have is a Genki Temagari for green wood, and it is very efficient and pleasant to use.

    71FydlD+G0L._AC_SL1500_.jpg
    They can be quite big.


    I have seen a youtube with two sawyers splitting a log bigger than the length of their saws. They went at it from opposite sides pushing and pulling in time so that the blades did not clash in the kerf.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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  30. #65
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    Default Re: Something I don't know how to do!

    Quote Originally Posted by Hugh Conway View Post
    the portable scroll saws (“Sabre saws” “jig saws”), not the stand mounted power driven scroll saw that can be quite big & heavy and are quite cheap used

    different professIons have different names too. A guitar luthier “fret saw” will be a western backsaw or Japanese dozuki with a blade of suitable width for cutting fret slots

  31. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by SOF64 View Post
    Thank you for the videos, Nick. I fear if such a whaleback saw came my way I couldn't resist. The biggest that I have is a Genki Temagari for green wood, and it is very efficient and pleasant to use.

    71FydlD+G0L._AC_SL1500_.jpg
    He was young man when he started cutting that log!!😵
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  32. #67
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    Default Re: Something I don't know how to do!

    Quote Originally Posted by SOF64 View Post
    Thank you for the videos, Nick. I fear if such a whaleback saw came my way I couldn't resist. The biggest that I have is a Genki Temagari for green wood, and it is very efficient and pleasant to use.

    71FydlD+G0L._AC_SL1500_.jpg
    Large nokogiri appear regularly for sale online from japan, couple hundred $ US. They are massive saws, in an odd way.

    if art is to be believed they were used both standing and kneeling



  33. #68
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    Default Re: Something I don't know how to do!

    I’d bet those guys are following one of those super fine ink lines. We use chalk, the Japanese use ink.





    https://www.tajimatool.com/product/ink-rite/

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    Default Re: Something I don't know how to do!

    Quote Originally Posted by DeniseO30 View Post
    He was young man when he started cutting that log!!
    This is quite funny, but it sounds worse than it actually is. Mine has got cross cut teeth, so I can't say much about ripping, but when I bought it they advertised it as 'the silent chain saw'. I have used it even on larger diameters (say 20 to 25 cm, 8 to 10 inches), and it works astonishingly fast. I probably wouldn't like to use it all day, but for an occasional cut it is a fine tool. I also climbed up trees to make major cuts where a chain saw would have been way too dangerous without special training, and it did the job very well.

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    Default Re: Something I don't know how to do!

    Quote Originally Posted by Hugh Conway View Post
    Large nokogiri appear regularly for sale online from japan, couple hundred $ US. They are massive saws, in an odd way.

    if art is to be believed they were used both standing and kneeling


    You've set me on a track now. I checked on German Ebay, and there are two antique Nokogiri saw blades, really chunky whaleback saws. The asking price is about € 180 plus 70 for shipping from Japan. I won't spend that money right away, but I will certainly be on the lookout for further offers from now on.

    As for sawing positions, one of our German online tool suppliers shows a similar picture as the one you posted here. It indicates that vertical sawing by single sawyers was also practiced.

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