Tapered Bronze Valves

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  • DeniseO30
    Thinks too much..
    • Jan 2009
    • 4674

    #16
    Change them out to ball valves,
    Denise, Bristol PA, retired from HVAC business, & boat restoration and building

    Comment

    • Garret
      Hills of Vermont
      • Apr 2005
      • 48618

      #17
      Re: Tapered Bronze Valves

      Originally posted by DeniseO30
      Change them out to ball valves,
      Gotta disagree with you. A good solid WC or Spartan traditional valve works beautiful if maintained. There are a lot of cheap ball valves out there - brass not bronze, plastic galore, mild steel handles that rust. No thanks.
      "If it ain't broke, you're not trying." - Red Green

      Comment

      • keelhauler
        Member
        • Oct 2018
        • 59

        #18
        Re: Tapered Bronze Valves

        Originally posted by Garret
        Gotta disagree with you. A good solid WC or Spartan traditional valve works beautiful if maintained. There are a lot of cheap ball valves out there - brass not bronze, plastic galore, mild steel handles that rust. No thanks.
        My boat has seven taper valves that in today's prices would be very expensive. If I had ball valves I would keep them but I don't mind servicing the tapers that I have. I'm sure you're aware nothing on a boat is maintenance free. The balls being chrome plated on brass and sealed by teflon will work fine...until the teflon is compromised and the valve fails. Especially in a salt water environment.
        So, we're on the same page, Garret.

        Comment

        • DeniseO30
          Thinks too much..
          • Jan 2009
          • 4674

          #19
          The big problem with tapered valves is; the way people wrench on them without loosening the core. More than one thru hull has ripped or ruptured wood or glass hulls by... someone pulling on a wrench.

          Either valve can be serviceable I'm not going to argue the plus or minus of either but there is more flow through a marine ball valve then there is through a cored valve,

          A tapered valve corewill eventually go deeper and deeper into the body from the core being tightened to a point where there are no more threads.

          Can't afford ... But what is the cost of a sinking?
          Denise, Bristol PA, retired from HVAC business, & boat restoration and building

          Comment

          • keelhauler
            Member
            • Oct 2018
            • 59

            #20
            Re: Tapered Bronze Valves

            Yeah...I've seen enough to know that people feel strongly about valves one way or another and they're not going to change their minds. Right now I'm focused on servicing my taper valves. I appreciate anybody's experience on doing that. With all due respect I didn't intend this thread to be an argument about which is better.

            Comment

            • J.Madison
              Senior Member
              • Mar 2011
              • 3976

              #21
              Re: Tapered Bronze Valves

              I've got a boat full of these tapered valves. They all let a lot of water through even when closed, and are constantly at risk of seizing hard enough that I have to get a wrench to close them. I've rebuilt them several times taking lots of care, but still have issues.

              Look carefully at the cone for grooves and corrosion pitting. If bad enough, they will always have issues.

              Now I'm slowly swapping them for ball valve seacocks. (the proper ones with flanged base in bronze, not from the plumbing supply house). When closed no water comes in and they never seize up.

              The tapered valves have had a long life of corrosion and wear, and its time for them to be upgraded in my case.

              Comment

              • Garret
                Hills of Vermont
                • Apr 2005
                • 48618

                #22
                Re: Tapered Bronze Valves

                Originally posted by keelhauler
                Yeah...I've seen enough to know that people feel strongly about valves one way or another and they're not going to change their minds. Right now I'm focused on servicing my taper valves. I appreciate anybody's experience on doing that. With all due respect I didn't intend this thread to be an argument about which is better.
                My apologies - I didn't mean to start that either.

                To wrenching on them:

                They come with a handle. By exercising them regularly & keeping them lubed, the handle turns the valve smoothly & easily. If more pressure than what you can get with the handle is needed, they are not adjusted correctly. The inner nut with the flange is the adjustment, the outer outer is a locknut.

                If there are grooves worn in the taper, they will let water through. If the grooves are only maybe 0.010 deep, they can probably be lapped - though I'd want the seacock at a workbench & use a drill to remove that much metal - as you are bringing the rest of the valve down to the same level as the bottom of the groove(s). By checking them annually, you catch the grooves before they get too deep. Of course, if the grooves are too deep, it's new seacock time.




                To flow: They are all full bore - IOW a 1" has a 1" hole:

                "If it ain't broke, you're not trying." - Red Green

                Comment

                • keelhauler
                  Member
                  • Oct 2018
                  • 59

                  #23
                  Re: Tapered Bronze Valves

                  Originally posted by Garret
                  If the grooves are only maybe 0.010 deep, they can probably be lapped
                  I'm really surprised how shallow the grooves or scores can be to cause leakage. Have you ever used cylinder honing compound? I think it's also called cylinder grinding compound. I imagine the abrasive particles have to be somewhere around one micron.
                  If this keeps up, further on I could become a valve servicing specialist...a new career, lol.

                  Comment

                  • Garret
                    Hills of Vermont
                    • Apr 2005
                    • 48618

                    #24
                    Re: Tapered Bronze Valves

                    Originally posted by keelhauler
                    I'm really surprised how shallow the grooves or scores can be to cause leakage. Have you ever used cylinder honing compound? I think it's also called cylinder grinding compound. I imagine the abrasive particles have to be somewhere around one micron.
                    If this keeps up, further on I could become a valve servicing specialist...a new career, lol.
                    I've mostly used valve grinding compound - as any cylinder honing I've done has been with stones & water. I've also used Spartan's (I know the guy who run's their machine shop) & saw no real difference between the 2. Most (real) auto parts stores have valve grinding compound.

                    Seacocks are under higher pressure than many think - so a small groove can cause some leakage.
                    "If it ain't broke, you're not trying." - Red Green

                    Comment

                    • keelhauler
                      Member
                      • Oct 2018
                      • 59

                      #25
                      Re: Tapered Bronze Valves

                      Originally posted by Garret
                      I've mostly used valve grinding compound - as any cylinder honing I've done has been with stones & water. I've also used Spartan's (I know the guy who run's their machine shop) & saw no real difference between the 2. Most (real) auto parts stores have valve grinding compound.

                      Seacocks are under higher pressure than many think - so a small groove can cause some leakage.
                      I went into a couple auto parts stores asking for that and they said..."no we don't sell it". So, I was wondering if it was something special. It isn't really as you know. I was about to go to a engine rebuild shop when I came onto the Spartan's and just ordered that. Should be here soon as well as the lanolin I ordered.

                      Comment

                      • gypsie
                        NSW Australia
                        • Jun 2010
                        • 8173

                        #26
                        Re: Tapered Bronze Valves

                        My tapered valves don't leak - but I'm having a helluva time getting them out of the boat.
                        They have a grease nipple on the sides and everytime i service the motor i inject some marine grease until it all moves smooth. They stiffen up pretty quick though and i worry that in an emergency they'd be tough to close off.

                        I'm looking at these; https://trudesignplastics-com.s3.ama...1f6c2f4700.pdf
                        It's all fun and games until Darth Vader comes.

                        Comment

                        • Garret
                          Hills of Vermont
                          • Apr 2005
                          • 48618

                          #27
                          Re: Tapered Bronze Valves

                          Originally posted by gypsie
                          My tapered valves don't leak - but I'm having a helluva time getting them out of the boat.
                          They have a grease nipple on the sides and everytime i service the motor i inject some marine grease until it all moves smooth. They stiffen up pretty quick though and i worry that in an emergency they'd be tough to close off.

                          I'm looking at these; https://trudesignplastics-com.s3.ama...1f6c2f4700.pdf
                          Maybe try a different grease? I open & close mine a couple of times once a week & don't notice stiffness.
                          "If it ain't broke, you're not trying." - Red Green

                          Comment

                          • Canoeyawl
                            .
                            • Jun 2003
                            • 37698

                            #28
                            Re: Tapered Bronze Valves

                            I have an anecdotal story about lanolin.
                            I did a run of several hundred lathe turned tubing parts on a precision tapered mandrel. Had to start the cut at the little end and finish at the big end because it expanded with heat and drove further onto the mandrel. The tolerances were tight .0002" total. We couldn't figure out how to remove the parts from the mandrel. Well, lanolin was the winner, hands down. The part slipped right off. Everything else froze up solid. I used two buckets of water, one hot and one cool to size the mandrel before and after each cut. parts were about 6" long, 1" dia, .030 wall thickness. One of the few jobs I made money on, lanolin!

                            Proper lapping and adjustment of a tapered seat valve is a good way to go. They will never sink your boat when you are not looking. Lanolin maight be a good choice right there. But it won't fix an adjustment or fit problem. The real beauty is you just back off the adjustment a little and tap it loose. It only has to move a tiny bit to be loose.

                            Comment

                            • keelhauler
                              Member
                              • Oct 2018
                              • 59

                              #29
                              Re: Tapered Bronze Valves

                              Originally posted by Garret
                              Lapping requires that they still be in decent shape. Grooves that are too deep mean you can't lap it far enough - as it'll sick out to far & get too tight.
                              Now that I have a little more information I took apart my valve and took a look. It is only mating 25% of its length. The 25% is only at the widest part of the taper. No wonder it leaked.
                              When I get the lapping compound delivered probably by the weekend I will try it out. Should be interesting how much action it will take or if it is just too worn to reach uniformity along the length of the barrel. But, I think it will work out.
                              Also, I do not think any grease or the lanolin would have stopped this valve from leaking in its present condition.

                              Comment

                              • Canoeyawl
                                .
                                • Jun 2003
                                • 37698

                                #30
                                Re: Tapered Bronze Valves

                                When lapping, be sure to go about a 1/4 turn back and forth, not round and round. Round and round will make continuous scoring following the high spot all the way round.

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