Sven Yrvind has set sail.....

[Chris249]

Considering how often pollution is raised, I decided to get some rough figures. Assuming Sven's boat is 300kg in light condition and has a similar Co2 toll as a foam/glass surfboard, it appears that the hull will cause 3 tonnes of Co2 emissions. That's going off the figures from here; https://open.library.ubc.ca/cIRcle/c...tems/1.0103115

According to the Air New Zealand carbon calculator, a flight from Europe to NZ consumes 2 tons of Co2.

Sven is now apparently going to abandon the boat that used 3 tonnes of Co2 to make, and fly back to Sweden. That will emit .655 tonnes of Co2.

'Glass and foam boats are apparently not easy to recycle. Hopefully it can be used in some other way rather than taken to landfill.

Sven abuses many people on his site and manifesto. Given that he feels that insulting others is fine, he can hardly complain if others voice reservations about him. Considering that small craft have been well proven offshore (look at Trekka, Sopranino, the Tiki 21, Shrimp, etc) one wonders what even a succesful voyage would have shown. So far, Sven has talked a lot about reducing consumption and has actually created almost twice the Co2 that he would have had he flown to NZ, but he will still be back at his starting point.

And again, to those who feel one should not criticise Sven, look at the explicit and implicit insults he throws around. If he wants to escape reasoned criticism, then he should not insult others.

[Flobart]

From his website this morning, he is hoping to ship the boat back to Sweden, i do not know where you got the "abandon" bit from?

It was a shame to see him cut up the Yrvind 10, I do not know what happened to the boat he left in Porto Santo, but he stripped it of parts, so that might have got cut up to be disposed of, more worryingly in a place not set up for re-cycling, or maybe it ended up as a kids play toy?

He is experimenting. I can follow your point of view. He rides a bicycle mostly, if you want to compare about his CO2 contribution, it may be a fraction of what some "average people" produce, driving an SUV everyday for a year. Sure, his contribution is not helpfull, and his rants at commercial products are his own views, some of which are valid. He would be the first to accept the criticism you have stated, rather than escape it.

[Lugalong]

He could probably have built a wood/composites boat for launching off a trailer, and that might have sailed to the Azores, in the same or even less time. Flying back to Sweden does not have to come into the picture... once out of the frigid zone, he would be at home aboard and quite able to continue living and sailing in more favourable climes without need to be burning any jet fuel and would not be costing world population the real threat of viral disease that some less "insult" producing ppl think is so heinous a crime, while promoting the apparently wonderful and low CO2 producing qualities of oversea travel by planes that contain large amounts of un-recyclable composites themselves. Insults vented on this forum will be like water off a duck's back to Sven, he has lived a life facing harsh words and sentiments for long enough to regard that sort of attack as piffling.Criticism for using less cellulose content in his recent boats might be more worthwhile here, than any so called crimes of emotion.

[Flobart]

.Criticism for using less cellulose content in his recent boats might be more worthwhile here, than any so called crimes of emotion.

Point is, rather than using "just enough" foam as a core to make a strong enough skin, he used an excess to ensure good insulation properties and positive flotation, which is not a bad idea if the boat was kept and used for many years.
Etap and Sadler are known for "unsinkable" and well insulated boats. I will not say people should stop building and experimenting with boats just because they can most likely buy a second hand boat for less money.

[Paul G.]

Smelly old man in a can with a flag on top.

[upchurchmr]

Why do you need to attack the person? (Smelly old man) I don't recall reading you met him, lots of old men and women "smell" but that's not the point here is it?

Don't like his boats, admire his spirit and ability to get out when most are waiting to die.

Lets talk about the boat and not about his imagined smell.

I missed something, he is quitting his trip to NZ?

[Lugalong]

Point is, rather than using "just enough" foam as a core to make a strong enough skin, he used an excess to ensure good insulation properties and positive flotation, which is not a bad idea if the boat was kept and used for many years.
Etap and Sadler are known for "unsinkable" and well insulated boats. I will not say people should stop building and experimenting with boats just because they can most likely buy a second hand boat for less money.

Insulation and floatation, using thick foam, is obviously the object in his case, but comes at the expense of lost internal space, exacerbated by going for minimal beam and having the cabin sole as the inner surface of the hull bottom. Alternatively, Plywood sides and bottom, with a cavity below the sole for use as storage and bilge that can be pumped dry, gets around the volume of foam used in Exlex. So, Comparing this boat(Sven's current design) with the12 footer that Serge Testa sailed (Acrohc Australis) shows how more beam provides useful internal volume along with watertight bulkheads and separate buoyancy tanks, at the same time as providing sail carrying stability(coupled with keel ballast) to offer some light weather sailing ability. Insulation foam under a whale-back deck is the primary area for control of condensation below. Sven had his insulation factor taken care of 'in theory', but it seems he really needed to sail more quickly to better or warmer latitudes. He nevertheless had to contend with water below, and this on or above the cabin sole, because the foam replaced the bige cavity, which would have provided some insulation anyway.

[Flobart]

I missed something, he is quitting his trip to NZ?

Yes, he wants to ship the boat back to Sweden, and build another. He has been questioning himself on what he would do in NZ once he got there, and decided he had no buissness there. I always assumed from his writings that he was going to build "next boat" in NZ, but arriving with nothing, hard to see how he felt he was going to pull that off. He lives on very little money.

[Flobart]

Sven had his insulation factor taken care of 'in theory', but it seems he really needed to sail more quickly to better or warmer latitudes. He nevertheless had to contend with water below, and this on or above the cabin sole, because the foam replaced the bige cavity, which would have provided some insulation anyway.

Yes, seems he suffered from some water ingress, and dampness/mould, so perhaps his ventilation system could also be improved, though he states it circulates far more fresh air than he needs. There is always a "next boat".......

[Chris249]

From his website this morning, he is hoping to ship the boat back to Sweden, i do not know where you got the "abandon" bit from?

It was a shame to see him cut up the Yrvind 10, I do not know what happened to the boat he left in Porto Santo, but he stripped it of parts, so that might have got cut up to be disposed of, more worryingly in a place not set up for re-cycling, or maybe it ended up as a kids play toy?

He is experimenting. I can follow your point of view. He rides a bicycle mostly, if you want to compare about his CO2 contribution, it may be a fraction of what some "average people" produce, driving an SUV everyday for a year. Sure, his contribution is not helpfull, and his rants at commercial products are his own views, some of which are valid. He would be the first to accept the criticism you have stated, rather than escape it.

I messed up and thought he was abandoning this boat (as he did with the last one) because of his stated desire to build a new boat inspired by the Azores whaleboats.

Apparently the average Swede causes about 4.5t of Co2 emissions a year, which is already exceptionally low in terms of per capita emissions for a developed economy. (EDIT - well done Flobart and your compatriots, I missed your nationality earlier). Without trying to get precise, it appears that at the moment Sven has, over the last couple of years, caused the emission of close to that much in boats and air travel alone, even ignoring the 0.8 tons of year he probably causes by eating meat, his heating and lighting costs, his other food, etc.As a retired person, Sven's Co2 output should be low anyway, because so much of the typical Co2 output is based around commuting to work.

The typical Swede's car use emits about 1 ton of Co2 annually (sourcehttps://www.utn.uu.se/sts/student/wp-content/uploads/2019/06/1906_Jakob_Willerstr%C3%B6m.pdf) . Over the last few years, Sven seems to have been emitting more Co2 by building boats than most Swedes have by using cars, on rough estimates. So arguably, while Sven spends much time calling for low consumption and criticising others, he's actually pretty much as bad as the average person in terms of consumption of vital resources, and it's quite likely that he creates even more Co2 than the average Swede, while beating the environmental drum.

What do we call someone who loudly criticises others for doing what they do themselves? Hmmmmm......

As Lugalong says, arguably a wooden boat would have filled Sven's stated desires much better. Possibly even better would be simply renovating an old GRP boat that was about to get cut up and scrapped. A second-hand conventional craft could also well have used second-hand sails and gear. Sven is claiming to be into reducing his toll on the earth but building new boats instead of using old ones seems to be the worst possible way to go in terms of consumption. And given that his voyaging tales tell of massive constipation and being ridden with lice, how many people were going to be enticed by his example? What was he going to "prove" by doing pretty much what Trekka, Shrimp, Cooking Fat, Sopranino etc had done decades ago?

[upchurchmr]

So how much credit does he get for not driving a car while on the ocean?
How much for not heating a house?

What a nit picking exercise.
Would you like us all to live in a tent and eat only low gas producing food?

There have to be so many large sources of carbon that it would be better to attack those.

Even better, we could go back to a 30 to 40 year life expectancy and that would cut emissions pretty good - assuming we don't have children.

[Chris249]

You may find it nit-picking to try to work out whether someone who insults others so freely and claims to be "spread(ing) the message of safer and more environmentally-friendly sailing" is living up to his claims or not. You may also find it nit picking to check out assumptions about our impact on the planet. Others may not.

What exactly is wrong with examining the approximate reality behind the claims a person makes so publicly? Why can we not ask questions about their implicit claims and assumptions? Should we just sit back and accept what we are told?

You are correct that there are many other larger sources of carbon that would be better attacked - but Sven's not doing that. Sven is on the attack, abusing people whose boats are "inherently dangerous"; who should "have a bad conscience about destroying the environment"; who are "enslaved by comfort"; "morally wrong"; "spoiled"; have no ideology; life meaningless lives; in need of "professional help" from psychologists; own "disfigured" boats.

Those insults apply to fine contributors here, including at least one or two who green their land so that they actually REDUCE Co2 emissions rather than creating it like Sven does. Why stand by and see remarks like Sven's addressed to many fine people?

Sven is throwing around abuse very freely. Why is it fine for him to sling like that - much of it backed up by incorrect claims - but wrong to actually doing some rough sums to see if Sven lives up to the standard he abuses other for not meeting? He's throwing insults, I'm looking for facts. Why is one right and the other wrong?


PS - The above gives credit for not driving a car at all. I assume he heated a house while living ashore. He also seems to have heated, lit and equipped a well-fitted workshop. All that's fine, but surely if one is throwing around abuse at others for having a high Co2 cost, one should ensure that one's own is well underneath the average?

[upchurchmr]

OK, I was being excessive.

Live by the sword, die by the sword.

[Lugalong]

Couple of errors made by Yrvind deserve criticism - he has made an attack on the spending ability of wealthy people on the basis that in comparison, his frugality has environmental virtuosity, which is pretty much picking a fight... this in his case is like coming to a gun fight armed with a knife. Plucky he may be and an inherent Swedish confidence in knives might be his next mistake?. Still learning then at the age of 80?. Nevertheless, lessons learned in boat building over that time are still worth putting into practice, hope he is able to get on with his next boat, and that it has more wood in the structure this time.

[Paul G.]

Why do you need to attack the person? (Smelly old man) I don't recall reading you met him, lots of old men and women "smell" but that's not the point here is it?

Don't like his boats, admire his spirit and ability to get out when most are waiting to die.

Lets talk about the boat and not about his imagined smell.

I missed something, he is quitting his trip to NZ?

fair comment, its not an attack on him but the nuttiness of trying to sell a totally impractical idea.

[Flobart]

fair comment, its not an attack on him but the nuttiness of trying to sell a totally impractical idea.

Impractical how? Like trying to sell bicycles in a nation full of cars? I expect VERY few people would want to travel like he does, just as the number of people who ride a bicycle from one end of a continent to the other, compared to those who take a plane. I see little wrong in pointing out travel can be accomplished with less. People go into a showroom looking for a city car and due to sales pressure, they may come out with a V8 petrol powered 8litre monster that weighs 4 tons, does 9mpg, but its "fully loaded" for comfort. His point being people often are easily swayed into parting with their money for things that they do not actually need, but are easily talked into, yacht sales are no different.
So, although there is nothing fundamentally wrong with his "mountain bike of the seas" idea, there are just very few people willing to travel like that, its a step up from a large kayak or ocean rowing boat.

[Chris249]

But what is there about the "mountain bike of the sea" concept that hasn't been done before, and (at least in quite a few ways) better? In what ways has Exlex been proven to be better than Sopranino or Trekka, for example? Neither of them had difficulty getting upwind. Both of them sailed further than the Exlexes, and arguably may have paved the way for Bris. One could probably build a Sopranino or a Tiki 21 for no more than an Exlex, and Sven's claims that his shoal draft mono is superior are just claims; reasonable but not necessarily proof that his ideas are superior.

Hannes Lindemann's transatlantic folding kayak was far smaller than any of Sven's boats. So was the Finn dinghy Golondrina, which sailed 2800 nm across the Pacific. So, of course, were Sea Egg, Acrohc Australis, probably Shrimp, etc, etc etc.

If Sven's ideas are practical, then why has he not actually achieved in practise what he intended to do with his recent boats? A mode of transport that causes one to find it hard to walk at the end of a trip is not particularly practical, IMHO.

It's interesting to work out what a "mountain bike of the sea" would be like. I don't do long distance cycling trips; I don't think I've ever done more than a few hundred km at a time because I like to cycle in Europe and pack a lot into a fortnight overseas. But a minimalist bike tourer can move quite quickly; faster than a heavily laden bike tourer. On an undulating ride, if you're a moderately light tourer you're only losing a few percent compared to someone who is carrying nothing but their body and a pump. In contrast, Exlex seems to have been extremely slow, and few people seem to want to spend that much time looking at empty ocean and hoping the winds will allow them to compensate for their lack of upwind performance. Something like Sopranino or Cooking Fat seems to have been much closer to Sven's supposed ideal than any of Sven's craft. Sven's craft seem less like "the mountain bike of the sea" and more like a unicyclist towing a small caravan and therefore almost unable to climb any mountains or move faster than a crawl. And no, I'm NOT saying that speed is all, but Sven's recent craft have arguably failed at their intended task and could not have proven anything that was not proven almost 70 years or more before.

[Flobart]

I do not disagree with much of what you write. Anyone today can pick from a hand full of well built 60s grp boats that could perform way in excess of Exlex. Roger Taylor has proved beyond doubt what many already new about the Corribees ability, both in fin and bilge keel versions, Hurley 18-22 or Kingfisher 20-22, all recently taken part in Jester challenges and trips from Europe to Australia, so proven beyond doubt in capable hands. And those that want to build new have an even bigger choice of designs from small heavy weights to Mini transat style boats, most of which are as easily towed behind a normal car. I certainly would not choose one of his boats, and do not know anyone who would. That being said, hes an old man having fun. If he ships it back to Sweden, he may even just replace the aft end to one of his liking, but given his history so far, most likely to start from scratch again. He still has his 16ft chine runner boat, that he took to Martinique.

[Flobart]

Update: Sven is intending to set sail again and head off to Porto Santo, an island just to the NE of Madeira. Then intending to fly back to Sweden to start on his new boat. Next sommer he hopes to bring ExLex to Dingle in Ireland, and then by trailer, back to Stockholm. For a man who did not have enough money to build "the next boat now", he seems to have fallen on his feet.
The next boat will have the same 4ft beam, but 6 times long if he can squeeze in his workshop 24ft, and shaped like a whaleboat.

[Lugalong]

This is starting to sound as though he is becoming disillusioned with the box sectioned hull having a transom and a spoon bow, but is for some strange reason determined to stick with a really limited beam dimension. Having a bit of internal volume and space, along with ability to carry fuel for a stove, is enough reason to expand the beam some.

[Flobart]

Porto Santo bound...




He seems to be repeating the idea that it is cheaper to add length to a boat to gain speed, than to add more sails, keels and winches. If he was building the boats from Scandinavian plywood, at least he could claim his boats are sustainable and not made from non renewable resources.

I see Yann Quenet is well on his way to New Calidonia, after setting off from France, for those unaware, in his home made, self designed 4m/13ft "yacht". Make your own minds up who is doing a better job promoting a "mountain bike of the sea " concept.

[Lugalong]

Both have transom sterns and blunt, boxy bows, which Sven seems to be edging away from, but is apparently sticking with a stretched length and 4ft of beam - that is all he needs for accomodation purpose.Beam of the French boat might be more than 4ft and should make up the difference in habitation space, along with providing more sail carrying stability. For a while now( on rainy days when my own boatbuilding work outside has been curtaied) I have been sketching up a small keelboat between the above two in size and does share the hatchway feature with the French boat.... was about to scan and post it here, but have had to get busy moving my 12M Pahi before being put into hospital. Whenout of hospital and laid-up for a while, should have time to follow up on posting sketches.

[john welsford]

I do not disagree with much of what you write. Anyone today can pick from a hand full of well built 60s grp boats that could perform way in excess of Exlex. Roger Taylor has proved beyond doubt what many already new about the Corribees ability, both in fin and bilge keel versions, Hurley 18-22 or Kingfisher 20-22, all recently taken part in Jester challenges and trips from Europe to Australia, so proven beyond doubt in capable hands. And those that want to build new have an even bigger choice of designs from small heavy weights to Mini transat style boats, most of which are as easily towed behind a normal car. I certainly would not choose one of his boats, and do not know anyone who would. That being said, hes an old man having fun. If he ships it back to Sweden, he may even just replace the aft end to one of his liking, but given his history so far, most likely to start from scratch again. He still has his 16ft chine runner boat, that he took to Martinique.

Sven has succeeded in doing something that very few get to do, he's able to follow his own path, spend time doing just what he wants, convert his ideas into reality and get out to sea to try them and see if they work.
There are people who think he's on the wrong track in terms of design, I'm one of those, but nevertheless I admire what he's doing and am generally supportive of his efforts, or at least his right to follow his own ideas.

I'd add that something like 80% of the worlds population dont get to live to his age, and he's still fit and able enough to do that.

John Welsford

[Flobart]

If that came across as a "dig", it was not meant that way; only that i do not agree on everything he does, but that is just a difference of opinion. His actual drive to continue his passion in experimenting is quite inspirational.

[wizbang 13]

Oh,,,Here is a page from my 1975 logbook of boats I sketched in Philipsburg, SXM. and English Harbor, Antigua. While sailing my own 26' engineless boat.

...dang I thought that was a better photo..lemme try again later,(when Jan can do it).
That is Wanderer 3 up top, Blue Crane (Peter Spronks own boat). Amazing boats and sailors were a regular thing in the days before GPS.

[Flobart]

Sven arrived in Porto Santo a few days ago. No update yet on his plans.

[Lugalong]

As mentioned in his blog - this boat will be left on an Island somewhere in the N Atlantic, so that he can get on a plane and fly back to start building another boat. Next boat is apparently to be "shaped like a whaleboat", so maybe (hopefully) it will be a wooden boat.Takeaway from this exercise seems to be that bluff ended hulls have fallen out of favour, but that L:B ratio is good at over 6:1 and that a short slow rig is still worth it's salt in the low stress stakes.Stability for sail carrying is not big in his scheme of things, which is surprising since he had his eyes opened to easily driven hulls with with straddle stability (when working with Richard Newick) and that are also easy to trailer transport.Maybe he will get to discovering that building a double ender in a restricted shop length can have benefits if assembled as a multi.

[Flobart]

Flying back to Sweden on the 26 Nov. Ex Lex to stay in Porto Santo till next spring. Sven hopes to start a 8.4m build .

[Lugalong]

Seems he has become fixed on a L:B ratio of 6:1 and maybe a double ender is the other feature to expect.

[Flobart]

Yrvind new design.



from his web: "" After making a 1:10 model I will make a full scale sailing mock up in wood, strip planking her. Wood is pleasant nice easy and fast to work with but unfortunately it does not make boats as strong and durable as I like have them.
Exlex 2020 is waiting for me in Porto Santo. I will return to sail her in April, maybe trying out some new ideas.
This new project is ambitious and with my small budget it will most likely take a few years to complete.""

I only question why build 2 boats? He could bond foam sheets to the exterior if he wanted, or just build in foam over a batten mold. Sven will go his own way as always.

[Breakaway]

You go, old timer.

Kevin

[Lugalong]

Well I have followed Sven for a long time and sailed a 27 ft wooden double ender which is the length he intends to build to. Boat that I am talking about was built in the tradition of the Northern European or Norse people and was certainly seaworthy in terms of shape and proportions - this was 27ftx10ft beam and did not need a deep keel for stability.Rig was short and 1/2 ton of external ballast in the way of a steel shoe augmented internal ballast in the way of stores and ground tackle, however, I did build a high arched deck over the cabin in the mid part of the boat, which provided critical buoyancy when rolled to 90deg.Without intending to drift the thread, I might be able to includ a pic that explains the configuration better than words. Point of this is to make a realistic comparison in boat types. Sven has had the double ender type in and as his chosen type for ages, then spent a good few decades experimenting with box section hulls apparently in order to prove something, so this change back to a conventional boat. Sure, he has limits on outlay and building space, so proportions of about 3:1 beam to length on 27ft is out of the question section begs the question as to why the proportions developed and proven over ages are not being embraced.Jung Jung bare hull.jpg

[Lugalong]

Pic appeared, but text space to explain that he obviously has limitations to build size did not and I realise that 3:1 beam:length is impossible for him, making the length of 27ft a problem if it has to be a monohull.

[john welsford]

I was wondering about his confined build space, and thinking that if he built say, an 18 ft centre section, then hauled that outside and put a tarp over it then built a stern and a bow sections back in that basement, then, when summer arrives bond the three pieces together. His foam and glass construction method would make that a practical thing.

John Welsford

[Flobart]

and sailed a 27 ft wooden double ender which is the length he intends to build .

Lugalong, if i recall, i read a story of Jung-Jung in a boat magazine so many years ago. Was she not a converted lifeboat? I think it was the first Junk style boat i had seen with headsails, and many things made "good sense". You are "THAT" guy?


Sven says he has 10,000 books in his unit to dispose of to gain room. Maybe he can do so at an angle.