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Thread: A Seil in California

  1. #176
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    Default Re: A Seil in California

    Quote Originally Posted by pez_leon View Post
    Very good points, Rick and Tom. At the moment I'm leaning toward painting at least the exterior in the System III "Bainbridge White", which the color-sighted members of my household assure me is something closer to a light sage green - gray. I'm sure I'll have a new opinion tomorrow. I am with you on the idea of a second color for the interior, which I had originally envisioned in something cream or tan before the thought of paying another $200 for the privilege offended my penurious parsimonious pinchpenny character enough that I might just try to eek the whole boat out of a gallon. In any event paining the interior is far enough off that I can postpone that decision. And I know, Tom: I am electing to pay five times what I probably need to. But it's marine! And Rick likes it.

    I need to source keel bands pretty soon. There are three of these: one on each sole-garboard joint, plus a third shorter band along the skeg. Brass half oval seems to be the default. Mr. Vivier also suggests the possibility of sacrificial hardwood battens instead. A third option, highly praised in older posts on this very forum, is HDPE plastic.

    At a glance, brass half oval would cost over $300 and seems tough to source locally. According to posters here who later replaced their brass, any metal is hard to push around on cobble beaches and trailers because it's soft enough to deform and thus sort of "stick" to rocks and obstacles. So it looks to be expensive, heavy, and functionally not very slick. Plus it'll never really be seen on this boat while the boat is in the water.

    Hardwood battens are appealing to me. I once built a deck from ipe lumber and retained a great respect for the way it wears - at least, it sure wears out tools! I think ipe is used untreated on docks and piers, so would not have any problem untreated on the bottom of a trailer-sailed boat. I have a call out to a local lumberyard that thinks they can rustle up a plank without the trouble of a special order.

    The TAP plastics down the block will provide 8' long strips of 1" wide 1/2" thick VHMW HDPE for about $16 each. That seems like a good way to go. Affixing this to the boat is slightly more complicated than just gluing on wood battens. HDPE moves a great deal with temperature and humidity changes, and so would probably need slotted holes at each of many fasteners.

    Any advice would be welcome.
    I'm making a decision on what to use on the keel and rubbing strips soon. Probably plate alu or white oak as that is what I have...stuck with either epoxy or Sika 29i adhesive which I have no experience of....decisions decisions

  2. #177
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    Default Re: A Seil in California

    Decisions indeed. The thought of turbulence-inducing wood strips protruding below the hull by as much as 5/8" has kept me up at night. Rick, you make the G-10 option look very compelling. If you wouldn't mind holding my hand through a few decisions I'd like to run this by you:

    Machining g-10 is tough, so I should probably buy it pre-formed. I can get 4' lengths of 1.5" wide 1/8' thick G-10 from McMaster Carr: https://www.mcmaster.com/1719N11/

    I'd get enough of those to make a continuous strip along each of the sole-garboard joints, plus some thinner material to protect the bottom of the skeg. I'd glue it down with epoxy. I imagine I'd mask it so that it is left bare when I paint the hull, but I'm not sure of that. Any thoughts?

    Thanks!

    James

  3. #178
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    Default Re: A Seil in California

    I wonder if anyone would share some opinions on rudder hardware. Mr. Vivier spec's Classic Marine pintles:


    And gudgeons:


    Notably, the gudgeons do not have long cheeks to wrap around the rudder - instead, they are bolted in to the rudder head, which in turn holds the kick-up rudder.
    Getting these parts to me from Classic Marine costs about $260.

    Alternatively, I could get a two "sternpost gudgeons" and two "transom gudgeons" from Duck Trap for about $100. These are the two lower items in this picture:


    The vertically oriented hole goes on the rudder head, and the horizontal on the transom. There is no pintle provided - instead, the maker recommends using a long brass 5/16" rod to align all four holes.
    fittings.jpg

    I think this would work, but I don't love the idea of the loose rod as an additional part to track. I wonder if I could make the transom gudgeons into pintles by permanantly fixing a short length of rod into the bored holes. They are probably bored a bit over 5/16". Do you think I could solder or peen some rod into those bores? Any advice would be welcome.

    Thanks!

    - James

  4. #179
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    Default Re: A Seil in California

    Duckworks has Racelite stainless gudgeons/pintles in various sizes. Good quality, much less expensive. And great people to buy from.

    The "heavy duty rudder gudgeons" cost less than $25. So maybe $50 total for gudgeons & pintles. Seems like a no-brainer to me.

    Edit to add: I would never tolerate the single rod through 2 gudgeons. Far more convenient to have separate pintles, with the bottom one longer so you can align them one at a time while leaning over your transom--simplifies things should you have to remove/install the rudder at sea.

    Tom
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  5. #180
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    Default Re: A Seil in California

    Quote Originally Posted by pez_leon View Post
    Decisions indeed. The thought of turbulence-inducing wood strips protruding below the hull by as much as 5/8" has kept me up at night. Rick, you make the G-10 option look very compelling. If you wouldn't mind holding my hand through a few decisions I'd like to run this by you:

    Machining g-10 is tough, so I should probably buy it pre-formed. I can get 4' lengths of 1.5" wide 1/8' thick G-10 from McMaster Carr: https://www.mcmaster.com/1719N11/

    I'd get enough of those to make a continuous strip along each of the sole-garboard joints, plus some thinner material to protect the bottom of the skeg. I'd glue it down with epoxy. I imagine I'd mask it so that it is left bare when I paint the hull, but I'm not sure of that. Any thoughts?

    Thanks!

    James
    You are as crazy as me about underwater turbulence. Those are the strips I used, smoothed at the ends and epoxy glued. They take paint well, go ahead and paint them. I just took a photo of one of mine, boat on the trailer. The bunks are adjusted so the strips rest on the bunk carpet at the outer edge of the sole. As you can see just some scratches after a lot of beachings, but we just have sand and mud not UK shingle.



    For the full crazy, I tapered the trailing edge of my skeg to minimize turbulence there.


  6. #181
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    Default Re: A Seil in California

    I had to look back to remember what I did with the rudder. These are Racelite pintles from Duckworks, sized to fit the rudder stock inside, the cheeks go outside. Not sure it matters except for minor appearance. I had to trim the lower one short. My gudgeons were first the simple Racelite matching ones. I tried very hard to get them aligned, but always they would bind and gall on the pintles even greased. This must just be me, no one else complains about that. I made custom gudgeons from stainless rectangular tube and used Oilite bushings, no issues after that.

    Inside:



    Finished:

    Last edited by rgthom; 07-13-2022 at 01:53 PM.

  7. #182
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    Default Re: A Seil in California

    I'll third the Racelite hardware, especially having the lower one longer so you can get the rudder in place on the water. I had to bend mine a bit to fit around the aluminum rudder head. Get one of the spring hold downs to keep everything from popping out too.



  8. #183
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    Default Re: A Seil in California

    Thank you all for your very sensible advice. I like the idea of just recessing the pintle straps into the core of the rudder and will go with that. $200 saved!
    I had the idea that I'd both glass the lower hull and install the outwales today. Instead, I was reminded of how much time in a project goes into preparing for the stuff one imagines spending one's time on. Before the outwales could be fitted, the stock needed milled out. Before the stock could be milled out, shorter planks needed scarfing to length. Before the planks could be scarfed, they had to be found at the bottom of a massive pile of subpar wood at the lumber yard. I only got as far as cutting the scarf (still incomplete in this picture).



    Other jobs I hadn't properly anticipated: a second round of filling screw holes and dents, assembling some new infeed and outfeed rollers, reorganizing the shop, packing for a quick weekend sail camping trip, and completing and mailing a letter requesting a blessing from the intended namesake:


    There are worse ways to spend a few hours.

    - James

  9. #184
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    Default Re: A Seil in California

    I had a great weekend out sailing with a buddy on a Sierra reservoir:




    Now, it's glassing day!




    It's going well. Two minor deviations from the plan: after endless deliberation, I had decided not to encapsulate the bare wood planks in epoxy. Then, I got casual with my roller tray and dripped a few good gobs. By the time it was rolled flat about half of the hull was covered, and I decided to go for it. Also between trimming the strakes to length and a few epoxy drips my nicely varnished transoms are taking a bit of a beating. I wish I had masked them more thoroughly, but I'm sure they'll come out ok.

    - James

  10. #185
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    Default Re: A Seil in California

    Which lake?

  11. #186
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    Default Re: A Seil in California

    Spicer Meadows Reservoir, off Hwy 4.


    This is the second time I've been. Unlike our previous trip (documented back on page 3 of this thread) we chose this time to stay out of those tight, windbound narrows, so there was no very dramatic tacking every minute for hours on end, clawing to windward in the freshening funneled up-canyon breeze. I'd recommend the lake to any sailor: the breeze is fantastic and seems very consistently right on the edge of the first reef for most the afternoon. the water is warm, at least by sierra standards- nothing close to taking your breath away; and the topography is great and varied, with plenty of little sheltered coves on the west end of the south sore and steep cliffs we dove off over and over again. I will definitely be back in the Seil, which (among other virtues) will allow me to sneak back to the ramp in the early morning calm without ignominious use of the electric motor.
    Rob, do I recall reading that you're somewhere in the valley? What's your preferred lake? I'm keen to visit more.

  12. #187
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    Default Re: A Seil in California

    Sweet! Aye, we are equidistant from the three parks, on the eastern edge of the valley.

    The best sailing “near by” is Huntington Lake, hands down. It’s higher up the mountain than the lake we normally camp on with the fam, and I rarely get up there, but it’s got the goods.

  13. #188
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    Default Re: A Seil in California

    As a new boatbuilder, I fret over the bits I can't see. For example: is that much squeeze-out really enough? What does the inside of that joint look like? Two recent opportunities for cross-sections have provided reassurance.

    First, I scarfed two 5/4 by 8" cherry planks together to make stock for the gunwhales. I took a tip from Ian McColgin to keep the glue line thin:
    Quote Originally Posted by Ian McColgin View Post
    ...very carefully with a low angle very sharp plane knock back the feathered edges 1/16" planing normal to the plank face. Then use the low angle plane to scrub both faces down so you have a little step to the sloped gluing surfaces. Now the planks will come together with the exposed part of the joint (a very very thin bit) normal to the surface.
    That's what I did, and it worked. I ripped the plank into about eight long thin pieces, six of which will soon be glued together in place to form the gunwales. Each section showed a nice tight glue line with no signs of starving or gaps. So there's a reassuring look inside a scarf.


    Today I got a look inside the glue joint between my lapped strakes. I cut the strakes flush at the transom. Here are the off cuts, which show a tiny gap or two that I would still call satisfactory.

  14. #189
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    Default Re: A Seil in California

    If the offcuts came away that well glued,you don't have much to worry about.Snazzy footwear BTW.

  15. #190
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    Default Re: A Seil in California

    Thanks John! They are an homage to Jeff Spicoli of Fast Times at Ridgemont High.



    I'm hoping to glue down the g-10 keel bands tomorrow. Any thoughts from anyone on epoxy and g-10? The plan is to rough up the gluing surfaces with 80 grit sandpaper, then give them a quick wipe with a moist cloth.

    - James

  16. #191
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    Default Re: A Seil in California

    Nice progress, it's really looking great! I think that pram bow is growing on me.

    What boat did you take out on the reservoir? That looks like a beautiful place... certainly no rocks like that around here.

  17. #192
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    Default Re: A Seil in California

    Way to go, Hamilton!

  18. #193
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    Default Re: A Seil in California

    Jeff, the boat we took out on that last trip is a 1982 Catalina Capri 14.2. Here she is pulled up in the cove near the campsite. (That submerged rotted stump just off the port quarter was a perfect cooler, holding all our beverages just underwater)


    She's been a delightful boat to learn to sail on and camp off of and I'm sad to say goodbye to her. However, there's hardly room on the lot for one trailered boat, and she's worth less than the trailer she sits on. She'll be posted for cheap on craigslist soon.

    You mentioned the rocks - they are very neat. They'd all be more or less the same color in a more natural setting. In this bad drought year, the defining aesthetic feature of this reservior is a "bathtub ring" clearly demarking the high water level, below which lichen can't grow. The walls of our swimming pool / private cove showed it well.

  19. #194
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    Default Re: A Seil in California

    Limited progress, interrupted by a fantastic trip up to Seattle and Port Townsend. Before we left I glued the outwales in place:



    The skeg is fitted, shaped, and shod in G-10. I think I will take Rick's cue and further round the trailing edge.


    And I bent those planking off cuts to see where they would fail. I don't know if it's any kind of reasonable test but I still like the results. The glued joints between the wood all held- what failed was the glue laminating the plies.


    Also note that the first joint to fail on each was the sole-garboard joint, which has since been sheathed in fiberglass.
    Last edited by pez_leon; 07-24-2022 at 06:00 PM.

  20. #195
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    Default Re: A Seil in California

    I doubt anyone in this crowd will believe me, but I went up North with no intention to drag my poor wife and extended family through wooden boat dorkdom. We were there for just a few days for a wedding and I was resigned to do only that. Miraculously the stars aligned, everyone was game for a few side trips, and we got up to Port Townsend for a lovely morning wandering through the boatyard and waterfront. I got a peak at Tally Ho and saw some small craft coming in from the Salish 100, like this beauty:


    Even more astonishingly my wife suggested that we spend our very little time in downtown Seattle at the Center for Wooden Boats, where we rowed out on lake Union on a perfect bluebird afternoon. Both destinations are highly, highly recommended.

  21. #196
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    Default Re: A Seil in California

    The boat is looking great. I know the finish takes a lot of time, but this must feel close now.

    Quote Originally Posted by pez_leon View Post
    Even more astonishingly my wife suggested that we spend our very little time in downtown Seattle at the Center for Wooden Boats, where we rowed out on lake Union on a perfect bluebird afternoon. Both destinations are highly, highly recommended.
    I agree on both and am jealous since it has been several years since we had the time or freedom to make the trip up.

  22. #197
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    Default Re: A Seil in California

    Quote Originally Posted by rgthom View Post
    I know the finish takes a lot of time, but this must feel close now.
    It does not feel close! I refuse to even contemplate a finish date. I am having too much building, and recently also having too much fun not building:



    Five nights of backpacking in the high Sierra. Remote, trail-less basins packed with perfect lakes. Not a boat in sight.




    Back at it tomorrow, with hopes of getting paint on this week. After endless agonizing deliberation I've decided to ignore almost everyone's good advice and go with water-based Benjamin Moore Porch and Floor. The appeal of easy touch up and endless color options was just too great. Tom: did you prime your hull before painting? The seemingly knowledgeable dude at the paint shop thought that a sanded epoxied hull probably would be best not primed- the epoxy is already primer. Any thoughts much appreciated.

  23. #198
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    Default Re: A Seil in California

    Last one before returning to regularly scheduled wooden boat content:


  24. #199
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    Default Re: A Seil in California

    Quote Originally Posted by pez_leon View Post
    It does not feel close! I refuse to even contemplate a finish date. I am having too much building, and recently also having too much fun not building:



    Five nights of backpacking in the high Sierra. Remote, trail-less basins packed with perfect lakes. Not a boat in sight.
    Now THAT's the ticket! I love the Sierra backcountry.

    Quote Originally Posted by pez_leon View Post
    Back at it tomorrow, with hopes of getting paint on this week. After endless agonizing deliberation I've decided to ignore almost everyone's good advice and go with water-based Benjamin Moore Porch and Floor. The appeal of easy touch up and endless color options was just too great. Tom: did you prime your hull before painting? The seemingly knowledgeable dude at the paint shop thought that a sanded epoxied hull probably would be best not primed- the epoxy is already primer. Any thoughts much appreciated.
    I didn't use primer. I'm pretty sure that my brother did not use primer on his Phoenix III, either. And his paint has held up really really well (like, not touched up in 11 years now, and still looking good). Just rollers, no tipping.

    The secret to these latex paints, I think, is:

    1. Put it on as thin as possible, with a roller that's more dry than wet. So thin that the first couple of coats look like they're not covering anything.
    2. Give it plenty of time to dry before launching. Like, 2 weeks or more. It takes time to harden up.

    Tom
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  25. #200
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    Default Re: A Seil in California









    One more coat, and then I have to figure out how to turn her over!

  26. #201
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    Default Re: A Seil in California

    Looking good!

    Tom
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  27. #202
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    Default Re: A Seil in California

    Nice job! Do keep us informed of how the paint holds up.

  28. #203
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    Default Re: A Seil in California

    A few guys and beer as an inducement!

  29. #204
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    Default Re: A Seil in California

    A few questions about supplies:

    I'm considering creating sealed buoyancy compartments instead of the specified foam-filled. These need access for ventilation and inspection and, at least in the case of the largest compartments, the possible stowage of voluminous light dunnage. I'm considering using this hatch for each of the two midships buoyancy tanks:

    https://www.dpimarineinc.com/dph1119

    One question is functional. Does anyone have experience with how well those specific hatches seal?
    The other question is structural. The cutout will make a roughly 8" tall hole in the side of the buoyancy tank that runs fore and aft. That piece is about 13" tall meaning that only about 2.5" of plywood remain above and below the hatch. Would you reduce this piece by this much?

    - James

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