A Seil in California

[dbp1]

I should mention that I will obviously only need one traveler. I have been making both in parallel because the material cost is $5 and I keep expecting to make a fatal mistake.

Looks nice!

What's the inside diameter? If you end up with an extra one in the end, any chance you want to stick in in the mail (obviously I'd pay shipping, but also materials / whatever seems fair)

...I say as someone with no welder friend.

[WI-Tom]

Looks nice!

What's the inside diameter? If you end up with an extra one in the end, any chance you want to stick in in the mail (obviously I'd pay shipping, but also materials / whatever seems fair)

...I say as someone with no welder friend.

Pay the shipping and I have a Classic Marine traveler ring you can have. It's nicely leathered, too. It doesn't work for my boat--I'd need a longer mast to make it work, which:

1. Ain't worth it.

And

2. Ain't happening.

PM me an address, and I can probably ship it out next month sometime.

Tom

[Clinton B Chase]

Looks great - I would love to put together a complete kit for this pram for someone. Lots of fun details!

[pez_leon]

Tom, I have a question for you about the classic marine traveler:



It looks from here like the ring that goes around the mast might not be perpendicular to the tension vector applied by the halyard, so that putting tension on the halyard might cause the ring to angle and bind against the mast. Did you have any problems with the ring hanging up on the mast? I mean no reflection on the quality of the product- I'm just wondering if I should have built some skew into mine, which I tried to keep as perpendicular as possible.

Daniel, the inside diameter on the prototype is 11.5 cm. I was aiming for something about 2.5 cm bigger in diameter than the mast, which I read somewhere is about right. It's about 11 cm from the inside of the loop to the inside of the hook, meaning it will add 11 cm to the end of your halyard. Send me a PM if you're interested. I can tell you that it's far from geometrically perfect and that you'd likely be better off taking Tom up on his generous offer of the proper commercial article.

- James

[stromborg]

The "pull" is going to run between the top and bottom curves of the "S". The hoop will run up and down the mast in pretty much the orientation of the picture. Don't over think

[timber_cruiser]

James, I have the Classic Marine traveler ring that I use on my CY balanced lug. I have not had a problem with the traveler ring hanging up, it rides my tapered mast just fine.

This pic shows the traveler ring suspending my mainsail bundle over my DIY tent. You can see I have a rather sloppy copper wire wrap to capture my halyard which probably is not necessary.

However, I recommend considering using a swivel. I had one issue with halyard twist early on that was resolved with this swivel. I use a halyard hitch since it holds well and does not take up a lot of length.

IMG_4142.jpg

[Bruce Bateau]

James- My mast traveler looks a lot like the one you made. It is leathered and constructed with painted mild steel. It works beautifully and doesn't bind.

I like having a loop to tie the halyard to. Strangely I have no pictures.

-Bruce

[WI-Tom]

Tom, I have a question for you about the classic marine traveler:



It looks from here like the ring that goes around the mast might not be perpendicular to the tension vector applied by the halyard, so that putting tension on the halyard might cause the ring to angle and bind against the mast. Did you have any problems with the ring hanging up on the mast? I mean no reflection on the quality of the product- I'm just wondering if I should have built some skew into mine, which I tried to keep as perpendicular as possible.

Daniel, the inside diameter on the prototype is 11.5 cm. I was aiming for something about 2.5 cm bigger in diameter than the mast, which I read somewhere is about right. It's about 11 cm from the inside of the loop to the inside of the hook, meaning it will add 11 cm to the end of your halyard. Send me a PM if you're interested. I can tell you that it's far from geometrically perfect and that you'd likely be better off taking Tom up on his generous offer of the proper commercial article.

- James

It worked fine and did not bind. The only issues I had were probably particular to my boat:

1. You lose a lot of vertical hoisting capability because the hook swoops below the ring, and I need every inch of hoist to get my sail high enough to see under (the mast is really designed to be used primarily in the fore mast step, which is about 13" higher than the center step I use it in).

2. My mast is not long enough for a ring. I have to hoist it all the way up to the dumbsheave, which tilts the ring in an odd way I never liked.

3. At one point, the halyard actually slipped off the ring's hook altogether while I was hoisting the sail. I think this was pilot error: I either had some crazy halyard-lead issues that popped it out when I tensioned the halyard, or the crazy tilt that happens when the halyard is hoisted right up to the dumbsheave let it slip out.

4. I never liked the way that the first 30" or so of hoist happened. When the ring is low, you can't get a good angle to pull. Once it's about 30" up, it works much better in my boat.

So, I quit using mine altogether. Right after #3 above, actually. I am much happier tying the halyard to the yard with a constrictor hitch. 30 seconds to tie, leave it tied all day (or all week) and I can hoist instantly as needed, or stow the sail bundle flat for days. That's the only way I can get the yard hoisted all the way up to the dumbsheave, which I really need to do in my boat.

Tom

[John hartmann]

Here is the traveller I made for Waxwing—like Bruce’s, mild steel. Used paracord with a ringbolt hitch (reversing/alternating half hitches, easy but looks fancy-ish) instead of leather. Works a treat, doesn’t bind.

C14C9B30-E5BE-46EC-9149-2545F72F0CDF.jpg

[pez_leon]

Thanks all for the feedback on the mast travelers! I'm looking forward to putting it to use.

No great pictures of recent work on the boat, particularly because I've been mostly devoted to the unglamorous task of freeing my driveway and obtaining a new trailer. Here's a bit of a rant about the trailer, expressed mostly for the purpose of clarifying my own thinking.

After a few bad experiences trailering, I've decided that it is worth investing time and money to make sure that the heavy objects I strap to my car and accelerate to freeway speeds are safe and reliable. There are few things that will ruin a vacation as quickly as trailer drama.
Some years ago I acted on this epiphany and replaced the dodgy trailer for my 14' fiberglass sailboat. I found the rare used trailer actually sprung for a boat this light, overhauled the bearings, and put on new tires. When I started building the Seil I figured I'd just use this trailer. As a known quantity, the trailer alone may be worth more to me than the combination of the boat and the trailer would fetch on the open market.
However I've reluctantly come to the conclusion that at 12', this trailer is just too short for the 18' Seil. The distance from the receiver to the axle is under 11', meaning that 8' of boat has to hang behind. I've read plenty of posts and threads saying that overhang is no big deal and I know I could extend the trailer with a flat bed. My greater concern is tongue weight and my ability move around the boat stored on the trailer without tipping the whole arrangement back.
I considered the possibility of extending the current trailer. It's surprisingly hard to find long galvanized 2X3 steel tubing to extend the tongue. Any option would seem to cost at least a few hundred dollars in parts. I'd then want to upgrade the trailer to 12" wheels, which would set me back a few hundred more. Even the wheel upgrade might not be straightforward. I tried to swap up to 12" wheels a while ago and ran into clearance issues.
There are, however, new trailers that more or less suit this boat. They are more expensive then they used to be! A nearby place sells a 16' Carnai model with a 1,000 lb rating for $2,200. 12" wheels, everything works, no drama. Save for the price it's quite appealing.

So I've listed the fiberglass boat with its trailer in the hopes of recouping at least some of the cost of a new trailer. The poignant feelings that swept over me as I first offered my beloved boat have fully given way to resentment, directed evenly the behavior of typical craigslist contacts and at a deep-seated certainty that the market is uniquely wrong in its estimate of the value of this sweet little tub.

On the other hand, it's very exciting to make progress toward the water. Getting the boat onto a well fitted trailer will be a big step.

- James

[pez_leon]

I had one issue with halyard twist early on that was resolved with this swivel.

Interesting! I would not have thought a swivel needed here. Good to know, and thanks.

[pez_leon]

Here is the traveller I made for Waxwing—like Bruce’s, mild steel. Used paracord with a ringbolt hitch (reversing/alternating half hitches, easy but looks fancy-ish) instead of leather. Works a treat, doesn’t bind.

Very fancy-ish indeed, John. Thanks for the inspiration!

James

[rgthom]

I was going to say that the springs on the 1000 lb rated Carnai may turn out stiffer than you like and that a Trailex would be a better fit and cheaper, but I just checked the Trailex prices and they have doubled since I got mine so never mind....

[pez_leon]

I was hoping to hear from you, Rick. Your posts on your walkabout trailer have been exceedingly helpful. Trailex rates have indeed gone up. The 550 lb trailer with 12" wheels is over $2k before tax, shipping, and license fees. There's also the issue of capacity. Vivier calls for "a payload of minimum 350 kg to take in account equipment on board: motor, mooring..."
While it's hard for me to imagine the payload adding up to 770 lbs, it's also hard for me to imagine knowing more than the designer about this. So a 1,000 lb trailer with a heavy flatbed platform doesn't sound too bad.

James

[Bruce Bateau]

James, you have a good head on your shoulders. You are so right- buy a new trailer. Enjoy bringing the boat places, not sitting on the side of the road!

-Bruce

[pez_leon]

I bought the trailer and spent two evenings making padded bags so that I can stow my tiller and rudder without excessive concern for finishes:



Not a bad weekend's progress.

- James

[pez_leon]

I've declared at least twice on this thread my intention to work on my boat without deadlines: give each small component its full measure of time, never sprinting toward any artificially imposed splash date, never letting what should be pure fun become any kind of stressful obligation. And, as evidenced by the already long duration of this project, I think I've been pretty good at slowing down! But now my small fiberglass sailboat is sold and I have hot reservations for boat - in camping at Tahoe this summer. I have been going at the project hammer and tongs. Interior fitout work seems to be perpetual half-steps closer to a dozen separate goals, so nothing is quite wrapped yet, and what you'll see below is a bit of a grab-bag.


Here's an interior backing plate for the bow eye, with oversized holes drilled and filled with epoxy. Not shown is a 1/4" G-10 washer that should distribute the load from each nut onto the plywood plate. I imagined hanging the whole boat from this fitting and reinforced accordingly.



The bow buoyancy compartment housing that plate will be sealed, rather than foam-filled. I liked the idea of a cambered top. Here's roughly what we're aiming for:


To get there I had to cut out a hole for the hatch (which I sure wish I had done back before I installed the bulkhead)





Then work out a filler piece to camber the top of the already flat bulkhead


Just aft of that that light-colored filler piece is a barely visible beam that will cover the plywood end grain and anchor a stout mooring cleat. I have since added a g-10 washer to receive the bolts for that mooring cleat. While I hope this is all overkill, I'd rather sleep easy, with full confidence in my anchor points. Here's the beam, which has since been shaped on the lower end.

[pez_leon]

I matched the filler piece's camber for a cleat glued to the interior of the fore transom. Each gunwale got plywood cleats glued to their underside, completing the support for this tiny foredeck. I've filleted the interior of this and the other sealed compartments and need only fill a few temporary holes and paint before I can close up the tops, which I am really looking forward to.


I'm after a non-skid painted surface for that deck. The tentative plan is to glass but not fill the weave, resulting in a canvas texture. This should also add abrasion resistance to an area that might be abused by anchoring and mooring gear.

Looking aft, I've installed a large beam to recieve the mainsheet cleat, and glued in most of the floor supports.



The long fore-and aft rowing stretcher support pieces are glued in. So are the small shelves that attach to their undersides. I was a bit worried about the maintenance of these small, tight spaces in the bilge, so I sealed the underside of everything thoroughly with neat epoxy. This area still needs fillets.



And the short matching strecher supports are glued along the centerboard case. Here they are temporarily gently wedged in place with these wooden kickers. Anything to avoid holes in the good hard interior surface of my centerboard case!



The manager is quite keen to remove all the temporary screws we use to hold things in place while epoxy kicks. He's ever more enthusiastic to get the boat in the water. So am I!

[rgthom]

Here's an interior backing plate for the bow eye, with oversized holes drilled and filled with epoxy. Not shown is a 1/4" G-10 washer that should distribute the load from each nut onto the plywood plate. I imagined hanging the whole boat from this fitting and reinforced accordingly.

I'll see your overbuilt bow eye and raise you one honking stainless U-bolt going through G10 lined holes with a G10 strip and stainless backing plate.


Newby builders go a bit overboard sometimes.... At least I have never worried about this one pulling out when winching onto the trailer.

[dbp1]

I'll see your overbuilt bow eye and raise you one honking stainless U-bolt going through G10 lined holes with a G10 strip and stainless backing plate.


Newby builders go a bit overboard sometimes.... At least I have never worried about this one pulling out when winching onto the trailer.

At least you both remembered to put in it before closing in the tank.... I had reinforced the area fine, but actually screwing the bolts on when it was a ~3ft reach from the hatch was... not fun.

[pez_leon]

Time for the mast step! This is made from two laminated sheets of plywood with a mortise cut out (provided by the CNC kit) screwed to hardwood floor pieces, which are in turn glued to the sole. The plywood mortise is not glued to the timber floors so that it might be more easily modified or replaced to adjust mast rake.

I took down the mast and cut the tenon in its base. Here you see the tenon marked, with the mortised handy for testing.



I've read that this joint can swell and that you want to be able to get it out easily. I slightly sloped the shoulders of the tenon so that it comes snug only as it seats in the mortise.

With the tenon cut I shaped and installed the two floor pieces. The forward piece was easy to hold in place with temporary screws to the bulkhead. The plywood mortise piece along with a long wedge to the mast thwart beam held the aft piece in place until the epoxy kicked.


I have tried to keep half an eye on any flat spots or valleys where water might be trapped. The forward face of the aft piece looked a teensy bit suspect, so I removed some stock so that it will shed water. Here's the layout; you can see the effect if you look closely at the installed piece above.

[pez_leon]

These floors are now filleted in place. This week I'll fillet the newly installed longitudinal bulkheads to either side of them.

[pez_leon]

With the mast on the bench it seemed a good time to resolve the final details of its sheeves, a project started 33 months ago.

The 1/2" bronze rod I'll use for the centerboard pin seemed about right for this application. I overbored, filled, and drilled at 0.5"


That pin needs to stay up there. Whatever retains it should not snag anything when the mast is lowered and stored in the boat. To form a low profile head, I drilled a 1/2" hole in some scrap steel to to hold the pin, heated the top, and peened one end. (Only about 3/16" of the rod stood proud of the plate for peening. You see it elevated here for heating. It will be dropped before a second round of hammer blows).


I countersunk one side of the masthead bore...


Until the pin sat nearly flush.

[pez_leon]

On the other end of the pin I filed a flat to drill a hole for a cotter pin.




Or, lacking a cotter pin, a bit of a coat hanger may serve.


Any day my little shop accomplishes passable metalwork is a banner day in my book.

[The Jeff]

Nice job, you're moving along! I like using round cotter rings on various places in my boat. They don't leave sharp ends exposed to snag stuff and are really easy to remove and install.

[John Meachen]

I would have avoided a lot of that work on the sheave pin.I've found that simply drilling a hole sized for the pin is sufficient.Retention can be taken care of by dipping the pin in varnish when you drive it.I might have chosen a 5/16" pin as they shouldn't see a huge load in a smallish boat.I can see a case for a stainless sheet pacer with a bend to match the mast radius on either side of the sheave to avoid chafe.With neat fitting,no fixings are really necessary.

[pez_leon]

Two new additions to the list of skills I didn't expect to learn or enjoy so much:

Filleting: not properly pictured, but since completed around these seat supports (and 90% of the other needs-fillets joints in the boat).



In this, as in most of the epoxy-related work on this boat, I have been deeply grateful for the guidance of Russell Brown's Epoxy Basics (available as a digital download for less than the cost of a beer at the pub). My fillets have improved rapidly thanks entirely to the good advice in that book. Sometime last night as I ran large, strong, and smooth fillets around the centerboard case I realized that good fillets are about 60% preparation, 20% cleanup, and only 20% actual filleting. I'm sure plenty of people already know it but I only figured it out with the help of the book and a some practice on the less-visible interiors of flotation compartments.

[pez_leon]

and Splicing:

Splicing the halyard (The bulky splice fits through the masthead sheeve - if needed I will be able to raise the traveler until it knocks into the pulley)
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Which I learned from this video:


There is something visceral about this splice in double braid. A nauseating ouroboros of messy strands collapsing neatly into a useful eye: Cronenbergian body horror, perhaps in reverse. (Or maybe it just felt that way because everyone in the house had norovirus. We're hoping to soon step off this winter tour of every disease preschool and kindergarten can offer.) The splice is obviously far stronger than is needed, but I figured that if I'm going to be such an easy mark that John only has to mention the dyneema cored "good stuff" to get me to buy it, I might as well learn to properly work it.

The mainsheet double-braid that I finally ordered at the end of this thread arrived as some of that fancy modern vintage-looking three strand. The hardware store put the order in just right, but the warehouse must have seen "vintage" and grabbed whatever looked old. I kept it because the price was fine and I figure I can try it here and repurpose it any of a dozen places if I don't like it. It splices well and has a nice hand.



It's been nice to have work to do inside when it's really raining, and nice to have breaks in the rain to fillet and to paint the inside of my soon-to-be airtight compartments. What a fun project this boat is.

- James

[Michael_Owen]

Good-looking splices!

Mike

[pez_leon]

The cambered deck is on the bow and the beam is shaped to fit.





One more round of filling a few small holes and dents and then we'll be ready for a layer of glass. I'm planning to leave it unfilled to create a canvas-like texture on the deck.

The supervisor... supervised.

[pez_leon]

I'm enjoying playing around with some possible uses of the bilge. I think I can get a decent anchor, chain, and rode stored low. If I hit on what seems like a great arrangement, I'll glue down some chocks and blocks before any paint goes down.

One option is immediately forward of the mast step. I could add three grooved blocks to catch the stock and each end of the round rod. Tied down, the anchor would more or less hold down the flaked rode and chain.




Another option is just aft of the CB case. If I remove its homemade tripping bar, the anchor fits here with no room to spare vertically, meaning that the floorboards would contain it pretty neatly. I suppose I could flake the rode and chain into all the rest of this bilge compartment.


Both seem like workable options. I think I'd prefer the weight in the aft location, and I might find it handy be able to prepare the anchor and even lower it over the side from the helm. On the other hand it might be a pain to remove that largish set of floorboards just to deploy the anchor.


Or, I can use the boat for a while and decide what works best with the benefit of experience.