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Thread: A Seil in California

  1. #176
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    Default Re: A Seil in California

    Decisions indeed. The thought of turbulence-inducing wood strips protruding below the hull by as much as 5/8" has kept me up at night. Rick, you make the G-10 option look very compelling. If you wouldn't mind holding my hand through a few decisions I'd like to run this by you:

    Machining g-10 is tough, so I should probably buy it pre-formed. I can get 4' lengths of 1.5" wide 1/8' thick G-10 from McMaster Carr: https://www.mcmaster.com/1719N11/

    I'd get enough of those to make a continuous strip along each of the sole-garboard joints, plus some thinner material to protect the bottom of the skeg. I'd glue it down with epoxy. I imagine I'd mask it so that it is left bare when I paint the hull, but I'm not sure of that. Any thoughts?

    Thanks!

    James

  2. #177
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    Default Re: A Seil in California

    I wonder if anyone would share some opinions on rudder hardware. Mr. Vivier spec's Classic Marine pintles:


    And gudgeons:


    Notably, the gudgeons do not have long cheeks to wrap around the rudder - instead, they are bolted in to the rudder head, which in turn holds the kick-up rudder.
    Getting these parts to me from Classic Marine costs about $260.

    Alternatively, I could get a two "sternpost gudgeons" and two "transom gudgeons" from Duck Trap for about $100. These are the two lower items in this picture:


    The vertically oriented hole goes on the rudder head, and the horizontal on the transom. There is no pintle provided - instead, the maker recommends using a long brass 5/16" rod to align all four holes.
    fittings.jpg

    I think this would work, but I don't love the idea of the loose rod as an additional part to track. I wonder if I could make the transom gudgeons into pintles by permanantly fixing a short length of rod into the bored holes. They are probably bored a bit over 5/16". Do you think I could solder or peen some rod into those bores? Any advice would be welcome.

    Thanks!

    - James

  3. #178
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    Default Re: A Seil in California

    Duckworks has Racelite stainless gudgeons/pintles in various sizes. Good quality, much less expensive. And great people to buy from.

    The "heavy duty rudder gudgeons" cost less than $25. So maybe $50 total for gudgeons & pintles. Seems like a no-brainer to me.

    Edit to add: I would never tolerate the single rod through 2 gudgeons. Far more convenient to have separate pintles, with the bottom one longer so you can align them one at a time while leaning over your transom--simplifies things should you have to remove/install the rudder at sea.

    Tom
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  4. #179
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    Default Re: A Seil in California

    Quote Originally Posted by pez_leon View Post
    Decisions indeed. The thought of turbulence-inducing wood strips protruding below the hull by as much as 5/8" has kept me up at night. Rick, you make the G-10 option look very compelling. If you wouldn't mind holding my hand through a few decisions I'd like to run this by you:

    Machining g-10 is tough, so I should probably buy it pre-formed. I can get 4' lengths of 1.5" wide 1/8' thick G-10 from McMaster Carr: https://www.mcmaster.com/1719N11/

    I'd get enough of those to make a continuous strip along each of the sole-garboard joints, plus some thinner material to protect the bottom of the skeg. I'd glue it down with epoxy. I imagine I'd mask it so that it is left bare when I paint the hull, but I'm not sure of that. Any thoughts?

    Thanks!

    James
    You are as crazy as me about underwater turbulence. Those are the strips I used, smoothed at the ends and epoxy glued. They take paint well, go ahead and paint them. I just took a photo of one of mine, boat on the trailer. The bunks are adjusted so the strips rest on the bunk carpet at the outer edge of the sole. As you can see just some scratches after a lot of beachings, but we just have sand and mud not UK shingle.



    For the full crazy, I tapered the trailing edge of my skeg to minimize turbulence there.


  5. #180
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    Default Re: A Seil in California

    I had to look back to remember what I did with the rudder. These are Racelite pintles from Duckworks, sized to fit the rudder stock inside, the cheeks go outside. Not sure it matters except for minor appearance. I had to trim the lower one short. My gudgeons were first the simple Racelite matching ones. I tried very hard to get them aligned, but always they would bind and gall on the pintles even greased. This must just be me, no one else complains about that. I made custom gudgeons from stainless rectangular tube and used Oilite bushings, no issues after that.

    Inside:



    Finished:

    Last edited by rgthom; 07-13-2022 at 01:53 PM.

  6. #181
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    Default Re: A Seil in California

    I'll third the Racelite hardware, especially having the lower one longer so you can get the rudder in place on the water. I had to bend mine a bit to fit around the aluminum rudder head. Get one of the spring hold downs to keep everything from popping out too.



  7. #182
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    Default Re: A Seil in California

    Thank you all for your very sensible advice. I like the idea of just recessing the pintle straps into the core of the rudder and will go with that. $200 saved!
    I had the idea that I'd both glass the lower hull and install the outwales today. Instead, I was reminded of how much time in a project goes into preparing for the stuff one imagines spending one's time on. Before the outwales could be fitted, the stock needed milled out. Before the stock could be milled out, shorter planks needed scarfing to length. Before the planks could be scarfed, they had to be found at the bottom of a massive pile of subpar wood at the lumber yard. I only got as far as cutting the scarf (still incomplete in this picture).



    Other jobs I hadn't properly anticipated: a second round of filling screw holes and dents, assembling some new infeed and outfeed rollers, reorganizing the shop, packing for a quick weekend sail camping trip, and completing and mailing a letter requesting a blessing from the intended namesake:


    There are worse ways to spend a few hours.

    - James

  8. #183
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    Default Re: A Seil in California

    I had a great weekend out sailing with a buddy on a Sierra reservoir:




    Now, it's glassing day!




    It's going well. Two minor deviations from the plan: after endless deliberation, I had decided not to encapsulate the bare wood planks in epoxy. Then, I got casual with my roller tray and dripped a few good gobs. By the time it was rolled flat about half of the hull was covered, and I decided to go for it. Also between trimming the strakes to length and a few epoxy drips my nicely varnished transoms are taking a bit of a beating. I wish I had masked them more thoroughly, but I'm sure they'll come out ok.

    - James

  9. #184
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    Default Re: A Seil in California

    Spicer Meadows Reservoir, off Hwy 4.


    This is the second time I've been. Unlike our previous trip (documented back on page 3 of this thread) we chose this time to stay out of those tight, windbound narrows, so there was no very dramatic tacking every minute for hours on end, clawing to windward in the freshening funneled up-canyon breeze. I'd recommend the lake to any sailor: the breeze is fantastic and seems very consistently right on the edge of the first reef for most the afternoon. the water is warm, at least by sierra standards- nothing close to taking your breath away; and the topography is great and varied, with plenty of little sheltered coves on the west end of the south sore and steep cliffs we dove off over and over again. I will definitely be back in the Seil, which (among other virtues) will allow me to sneak back to the ramp in the early morning calm without ignominious use of the electric motor.
    Rob, do I recall reading that you're somewhere in the valley? What's your preferred lake? I'm keen to visit more.

  10. #185
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    Default Re: A Seil in California

    As a new boatbuilder, I fret over the bits I can't see. For example: is that much squeeze-out really enough? What does the inside of that joint look like? Two recent opportunities for cross-sections have provided reassurance.

    First, I scarfed two 5/4 by 8" cherry planks together to make stock for the gunwhales. I took a tip from Ian McColgin to keep the glue line thin:
    Quote Originally Posted by Ian McColgin View Post
    ...very carefully with a low angle very sharp plane knock back the feathered edges 1/16" planing normal to the plank face. Then use the low angle plane to scrub both faces down so you have a little step to the sloped gluing surfaces. Now the planks will come together with the exposed part of the joint (a very very thin bit) normal to the surface.
    That's what I did, and it worked. I ripped the plank into about eight long thin pieces, six of which will soon be glued together in place to form the gunwales. Each section showed a nice tight glue line with no signs of starving or gaps. So there's a reassuring look inside a scarf.


    Today I got a look inside the glue joint between my lapped strakes. I cut the strakes flush at the transom. Here are the off cuts, which show a tiny gap or two that I would still call satisfactory.

  11. #186
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    Default Re: A Seil in California

    If the offcuts came away that well glued,you don't have much to worry about.Snazzy footwear BTW.

  12. #187
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    Default Re: A Seil in California

    Thanks John! They are an homage to Jeff Spicoli of Fast Times at Ridgemont High.



    I'm hoping to glue down the g-10 keel bands tomorrow. Any thoughts from anyone on epoxy and g-10? The plan is to rough up the gluing surfaces with 80 grit sandpaper, then give them a quick wipe with a moist cloth.

    - James

  13. #188
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    Default Re: A Seil in California

    Nice progress, it's really looking great! I think that pram bow is growing on me.

    What boat did you take out on the reservoir? That looks like a beautiful place... certainly no rocks like that around here.

  14. #189
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    Default Re: A Seil in California

    Jeff, the boat we took out on that last trip is a 1982 Catalina Capri 14.2. Here she is pulled up in the cove near the campsite. (That submerged rotted stump just off the port quarter was a perfect cooler, holding all our beverages just underwater)


    She's been a delightful boat to learn to sail on and camp off of and I'm sad to say goodbye to her. However, there's hardly room on the lot for one trailered boat, and she's worth less than the trailer she sits on. She'll be posted for cheap on craigslist soon.

    You mentioned the rocks - they are very neat. They'd all be more or less the same color in a more natural setting. In this bad drought year, the defining aesthetic feature of this reservior is a "bathtub ring" clearly demarking the high water level, below which lichen can't grow. The walls of our swimming pool / private cove showed it well.

  15. #190
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    Default Re: A Seil in California

    Limited progress, interrupted by a fantastic trip up to Seattle and Port Townsend. Before we left I glued the outwales in place:



    The skeg is fitted, shaped, and shod in G-10. I think I will take Rick's cue and further round the trailing edge.


    And I bent those planking off cuts to see where they would fail. I don't know if it's any kind of reasonable test but I still like the results. The glued joints between the wood all held- what failed was the glue laminating the plies.


    Also note that the first joint to fail on each was the sole-garboard joint, which has since been sheathed in fiberglass.
    Last edited by pez_leon; 07-24-2022 at 06:00 PM.

  16. #191
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    Default Re: A Seil in California

    I doubt anyone in this crowd will believe me, but I went up North with no intention to drag my poor wife and extended family through wooden boat dorkdom. We were there for just a few days for a wedding and I was resigned to do only that. Miraculously the stars aligned, everyone was game for a few side trips, and we got up to Port Townsend for a lovely morning wandering through the boatyard and waterfront. I got a peak at Tally Ho and saw some small craft coming in from the Salish 100, like this beauty:


    Even more astonishingly my wife suggested that we spend our very little time in downtown Seattle at the Center for Wooden Boats, where we rowed out on lake Union on a perfect bluebird afternoon. Both destinations are highly, highly recommended.

  17. #192
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    Default Re: A Seil in California

    The boat is looking great. I know the finish takes a lot of time, but this must feel close now.

    Quote Originally Posted by pez_leon View Post
    Even more astonishingly my wife suggested that we spend our very little time in downtown Seattle at the Center for Wooden Boats, where we rowed out on lake Union on a perfect bluebird afternoon. Both destinations are highly, highly recommended.
    I agree on both and am jealous since it has been several years since we had the time or freedom to make the trip up.

  18. #193
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    Default Re: A Seil in California

    Quote Originally Posted by rgthom View Post
    I know the finish takes a lot of time, but this must feel close now.
    It does not feel close! I refuse to even contemplate a finish date. I am having too much building, and recently also having too much fun not building:



    Five nights of backpacking in the high Sierra. Remote, trail-less basins packed with perfect lakes. Not a boat in sight.




    Back at it tomorrow, with hopes of getting paint on this week. After endless agonizing deliberation I've decided to ignore almost everyone's good advice and go with water-based Benjamin Moore Porch and Floor. The appeal of easy touch up and endless color options was just too great. Tom: did you prime your hull before painting? The seemingly knowledgeable dude at the paint shop thought that a sanded epoxied hull probably would be best not primed- the epoxy is already primer. Any thoughts much appreciated.

  19. #194
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    Default Re: A Seil in California

    Last one before returning to regularly scheduled wooden boat content:


  20. #195
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    Default Re: A Seil in California

    Quote Originally Posted by pez_leon View Post
    It does not feel close! I refuse to even contemplate a finish date. I am having too much building, and recently also having too much fun not building:



    Five nights of backpacking in the high Sierra. Remote, trail-less basins packed with perfect lakes. Not a boat in sight.
    Now THAT's the ticket! I love the Sierra backcountry.

    Quote Originally Posted by pez_leon View Post
    Back at it tomorrow, with hopes of getting paint on this week. After endless agonizing deliberation I've decided to ignore almost everyone's good advice and go with water-based Benjamin Moore Porch and Floor. The appeal of easy touch up and endless color options was just too great. Tom: did you prime your hull before painting? The seemingly knowledgeable dude at the paint shop thought that a sanded epoxied hull probably would be best not primed- the epoxy is already primer. Any thoughts much appreciated.
    I didn't use primer. I'm pretty sure that my brother did not use primer on his Phoenix III, either. And his paint has held up really really well (like, not touched up in 11 years now, and still looking good). Just rollers, no tipping.

    The secret to these latex paints, I think, is:

    1. Put it on as thin as possible, with a roller that's more dry than wet. So thin that the first couple of coats look like they're not covering anything.
    2. Give it plenty of time to dry before launching. Like, 2 weeks or more. It takes time to harden up.

    Tom
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  21. #196
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    Default Re: A Seil in California









    One more coat, and then I have to figure out how to turn her over!

  22. #197
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    Default Re: A Seil in California

    Looking good!

    Tom
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  23. #198
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    Default Re: A Seil in California

    Nice job! Do keep us informed of how the paint holds up.

  24. #199
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    Default Re: A Seil in California

    A few guys and beer as an inducement!

  25. #200
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    Default Re: A Seil in California

    A few questions about supplies:

    I'm considering creating sealed buoyancy compartments instead of the specified foam-filled. These need access for ventilation and inspection and, at least in the case of the largest compartments, the possible stowage of voluminous light dunnage. I'm considering using this hatch for each of the two midships buoyancy tanks:

    https://www.dpimarineinc.com/dph1119

    One question is functional. Does anyone have experience with how well those specific hatches seal?
    The other question is structural. The cutout will make a roughly 8" tall hole in the side of the buoyancy tank that runs fore and aft. That piece is about 13" tall meaning that only about 2.5" of plywood remain above and below the hatch. Would you reduce this piece by this much?

    - James

  26. #201
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    Default Re: A Seil in California










  27. #202
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    Default Re: A Seil in California

    Bravo!

  28. #203
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    Default Re: A Seil in California

    A very significant step forward.I've seen much less tidy interiors,you must have been taking care to prevent glue spillage.

  29. #204
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  30. #205
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    Default Re: A Seil in California

    Cool! Launching next week, then?

    Tom
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  31. #206
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    Default Re: A Seil in California

    Nice work. I can't speak to that specific hatch, but the only ones I've found that don't leak are the screw in kind.

    On your other question about the plywood, I think you will be fine. Just check the template dimensions for the hatch of your choice before cutting into the plywood.
    Tales from the land and sea: http://terrapintales.wordpress.com/

  32. #207
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    Default Re: A Seil in California

    Thank you all for the kind words! It was a banner morning at the Lucky Lady Liberty $15,000 Cash and Free Slot Play Memorial boathouse.

    Quote Originally Posted by John Meachen View Post
    ... you must have been taking care to prevent glue spillage.
    I was, and I am very glad of it. The few spots that seemed too hard to clean up while the boat was inverted now seem a whole lot harder to clean up when the epoxy has set! But overall we're in good shape for smoothing the interior. Which is what we did this weekend so that the boat could take on its temporary role as a proper kid clubhouse.


    Long time readers will recall that I picked this design in part because of Mr. Vivier's careful design for capsize recovery. The important, safe buoyancy tanks I'll be building next will profoundly alter the interior ergonomics. I'm sure they'll be great. I'm equally sure there is a small part of me that will forever miss the perfect hammock shape of the wide-open unobstructed hull.

  33. #208
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    Default Re: A Seil in California

    Quote Originally Posted by pez_leon View Post
    The few spots that seemed too hard to clean up while the boat was inverted now seem a whole lot harder to clean up when the epoxy has set!
    A heat gun and a scraper make epoxy clean super easy. - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=krbadnJ6URw

  34. #209
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    Default Re: A Seil in California

    Anyone ready for another installment of "talk me out of my foolish innovations”?

    I'm fitting some cleats that will support the thwart that supports the mast. This is called out as high-stress, high-strength area. Here is one cleat ready for glue:



    (The top is beveled to fit the inwales, which I will next laminate in place. The inboard, flat face of the cleat will screw into the mast thwart)

    The design shows these cleats affixed with screws through the planking. I have two questions about this, both probably motivated by a real aversion to drilling through my fresh paint job:

    1) How much strength would such screws add? It seems to me that my filleted epoxy joint will be at least as strong as the glue holding the plywood together. Do screws like this add strength by "catching" all the laminations of the plywood (and not just the surface veneer?). By the time I've countersunk a #12 screw into 3/8" plywood, there's not much meat left for the screw to hold on to.

    2) I'd normally install something like this by gluing and screwing in one step, so that the screws clamp the pieces together. In my mind this means that the screws are under tension right away, and that the gap-filling epoxy then perfectly fills any spaces left between the pieces. I am curious- is there any practical loss in strength if one glues first, then drives screws after the epoxy sets? I can imagine that the epoxy and mechanical fasteners would less effectively share a load if you sequence the job this way because the screws would be under less tension and so support the glue less effectively.
    This is maybe somewhat relevant because the plans call for affixing the skeg with screws, which I have not done yet but will do soon, and which at this point seems a bit silly. But if I had to guess any difference in strength is probably minuscule.

    - James
    James
    Last edited by pez_leon; 09-21-2022 at 08:25 PM.

  35. #210
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    Default

    Since the experts have not commented yet, I will just say that structure looks plenty strong whether glued, screwed or both. Epoxy with a high density fillet is usually stronger than the wood and should be fine. My joints were all done by epoxying with screws to clamp, leaving the screws in mostly except on the planking where they were temporary.

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