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Thread: A Seil in California

  1. #141
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    Default Re: A Seil in California

    Hi James,

    I thought I had posted a few days ago, but...smart phone, dumb owner.

    Anyhoo, I didn't glue at this point because I wanted to have some flexibility when I lined up the CB slot in the sole as I thought it critical that the joint was absolutely spot on. I did apply epoxy fillets afterwards however and no issues so far...

  2. #142
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    Default Re: A Seil in California

    Thanks Chris! I am not going to glue that joint and will trust in screws and fillets.

    Meanwhile:

    Beveling bulkheads. The sole mold makes this easy:


    Sole pieces joined, glassed, and ready for fairing. This was my first time using peel ply and I'm not totally sold on it for my use. At present I have the luxury of full days to devote to the project, and I think I can probably get a better result with less sanding by laying down successive thin coats. Look close and you'll see the puzzle joint:



    The sole is laid down with plenty of screws, but not yet glued. I beveled one side now to confirm that I can do it on the boat (and not back on the bench). No problems so far.

  3. #143
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    Default Re: A Seil in California

    Everyone in the house got COVID, and that slowed progress a bit. We're all fine - have been all along, really - but between the isolation-necessitated total lack of outside childcare and fatigue and aches not much got done this week!

    The sole is glued down, and the first garboard is ready to glue:



    When the kids and I were most symptomatic, glassing two small puzzle joints to join the three pieces of a garboard was about as much work as I could squeeze in to any one day. This is the bench work done on a strake after the puzzle joints have been glued and leveled. First thing in the morning I'd apply 10 oz cloth, which I'd recoat every two hours or so until it filled. I beveled the edges of the patch with fairing compound to facilitate later sanding. This is only about a half hour of work total, but it occupies my full workbench all day. Which makes it a good fit for a day at home with sick kids!
    On that subject of occupied bench space, I wonder how people manage multi-step epoxy operations without sanding "green" epoxy and creating toxic dust. I keep reading to wait a week before sanding. That challenges my patience when my entire workbench is occupied with pieces glued together yesterday that could be covered in fiberglass today (if only they could first be leveled). So far my solutions have been to be patient anyway and to try to scrape rather than sand. This old garage sale scraper does pretty well:


    Long time readers will recall that I originally bought the templates to cut these pieces out myself before opting for the CNC kit. I'm glad I went with the CNC kit, and I also have to say I don't regret buying the templates. I rolled them out recently to both confirm I was assembling the garboards correctly and measure and mark their bevels. It wasn't strictly necessary - the bevel marking for each plank is given as 20 mm in the plans, and that's exactly what the template ended up showing me - but it was reassuring.


    It's exciting to see the boat starting to come together!

    -James

  4. #144
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    Default Re: A Seil in California

    Quote Originally Posted by pez_leon View Post
    On that subject of occupied bench space, I wonder how people manage multi-step epoxy operations without sanding "green" epoxy and creating toxic dust. I keep reading to wait a week before sanding. That challenges my patience when my entire workbench is occupied with pieces glued together yesterday that could be covered in fiberglass today (if only they could first be leveled). So far my solutions have been to be patient anyway and to try to scrape rather than sand. This old garage sale scraper does pretty well:

    -James
    I am going to call advantage Fairfield for sanding. My building jig was on casters, for any sanding work I rolled the boat out of the garage into the usual howling wind and sanded from the upwind side. For green epoxy though I agree on scrapers. I first found an ancient steel one which worked but needed frequent sharpening, later bought a carbide blade type with replaceable blades which so far is still on the first blade.

    And yes COVID is everywhere suddenly. Literally everyone at work except me had it over the last two weeks, and many friends also. I am somehow still negative, maybe had it and did not notice at some point.

    -Rick

  5. #145
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    Default Re: A Seil in California

    A heat gun, judiciously applied with a scraper, is the only tool I consider for epoxy clean-up these days. Beats sanding or scraping or anything else I know.

    Tom
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  6. #146
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    Default Re: A Seil in California

    Quote Originally Posted by WI-Tom View Post
    A heat gun, judiciously applied with a scraper, is the only tool I consider for epoxy clean-up these days. Beats sanding or scraping or anything else I know.

    Tom
    True enough,but bear in mind that epoxy bonds normally degrade at 95 deg C or thereabouts-so be careful not to overdo it.

  7. #147
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    Default Re: A Seil in California

    Thanks, all, for the thoughts on epoxy. I am making great progress hanging strakes:



    When I see that picture I'm struck by the mess. Some time ago I developed a habit that keeps most my job sites tidy: as soon as I realize I'm missing a tool or don't know what to do, I drop everything and start cleaning. Invariably the tool or the needed insight appears just as the shop is returned to order, time is saved, and mistakes are avoided. A cluttered messy job site thus reflects confusion that needs to be resolved. But not this time! I realized yesterday that for the first time in this project, I have known exactly what to do for days on end, and needed only a very few tools to do it. The mess thus reflects progress. Or at least that's what I'll tell myself.

    The end of planking is in sight. Then: fiberglassing the sole and garboards, hanging the skeg, and painting the exterior.
    I would appreciate your insight on paint. Inspired by some old posts from the PNW Sail and Oar crew, I have been leaning toward using water-based house paint for the hull. I like the idea of reducing my solvent exposure, reducing environmental impact, and making later touch-up easier. I'm concerned that the water-based paint may not play nicely with my varnished transoms and gunwales, and generally apprehensive about using anything other than salty "marine" products. This is a day-sailed hull that will never be submerged for more than a few weeks at a time, rarely that much. I'm not presently planning to pre-coat the upper strakes with epoxy, though I could be convinced. Any advice?

    Thanks!


    - James

  8. #148
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    Default Re: A Seil in California

    For paint on mine I used System III water based LPU. You have to add a few drops of the crosslinker and mix it in, but water is the solvent and there are no fumes. In our low humidity it was hard to maintain a wet edge and the finish looked all blotchy at first, but it smoothed out and took an even gloss after a few days and still looks as good 12 years on. I have touched up a few scrapes from the same old cans, they look fine. Touchup on small spots could be done without adding the crosslinker but the film would not be as tough. No issues at the interface with varnish, but I was using their varnish (and epoxy).

    -Rick

  9. #149
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    Default Re: A Seil in California

    Nice progress! I haven't done anything lapstrake, but it looks like the CNC kit really speeds up planking.

    Quote Originally Posted by pez_leon View Post
    Inspired by some old posts from the PNW Sail and Oar crew, I have been leaning toward using water-based house paint for the hull.
    I was swayed by the siren song of easy touch ups and put some Behr exterior latex from Home Depot on my dinghy but I think it was a mistake. It certainly is easy to touch up, but it's also fairly easy to get scraped off. I don't know if the hull wasn't clean enough or there wasn't enough tooth or if that's just as good as latex paint is, but I wish I went with something closer to the top shelf. It's on my long list to strip it off and go for something better. I've had the boat in the water for a week a few times and it always seems like the paint is slightly gooey when I pull it out.

  10. #150
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    Default Re: A Seil in California

    Great progress!

    I feel like I've seem people post about using porch and floor paint to good effect on dry sailed small boats. I'm afraid I can't offer any personal recommendation for a low VOC option as I am guilty of priming my plywood planking with CPES and then using traditional marine enamel.

  11. #151
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    Default Re: A Seil in California

    Kirby's paint is the best.
    They are on the east coast.
    Marshall's Cove I think is the west coast equivalent.
    Just good old oil based marine paint.

  12. #152
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    Default Re: A Seil in California

    Quote Originally Posted by timo4352 View Post
    Kirby's paint is the best.
    They are on the east coast.
    Marshall's Cove I think is the west coast equivalent.
    Just good old oil based marine paint.

    +1 on Marshall's Cove. I personally like to support a smaller business like this. Their paint quality is excellent and wears well over time.

  13. #153
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    Default Re: A Seil in California

    Quote Originally Posted by pez_leon View Post
    I would appreciate your insight on paint. Inspired by some old posts from the PNW Sail and Oar crew, I have been leaning toward using water-based house paint for the hull. I like the idea of reducing my solvent exposure, reducing environmental impact, and making later touch-up easier. I'm concerned that the water-based paint may not play nicely with my varnished transoms and gunwales, and generally apprehensive about using anything other than salty "marine" products. This is a day-sailed hull that will never be submerged for more than a few weeks at a time, rarely that much. I'm not presently planning to pre-coat the upper strakes with epoxy, though I could be convinced. Any advice?
    The 2 boats I've sailed a bunch--long trips up to 30 days camp cruising--were both painted with latex porch & floor enamel. The brand name was Dutch Boy.

    This boat (June 2022 photo):

    3.104 (2).jpg

    Was launched in 2011, has close to 2,000 miles on it, and according to my brother (who built it), has never been repainted or even touched up. I honestly can't see any wear whatsoever--it looks great, and stands up well to scrubbing with a Scotchbrite pad to get scum lines off.

    Edit to add: This boat has varnished decks/side decks--no problem combining them with the latex paint.

    I think the reason it has done so well is that:

    1. It is stored indoors on its trailer, and not kept in the water between trips.
    2. It was painted with care--many thin coats to build up the paint layer over time, using a cheap roller, semi-gloss paint so fairly tough. Not even trying for a glossy show finish.
    3. It was allowed a looooong time to dry--like, maybe, 2 months? I'd say a bare minimum of 2 weeks after painting before the boat gets wet is needed if you're using latex paints.

    This stuff really is good and tough paint. It will be viewed with skepticism by people familiar with oil paints, but for me (having never used oil paints except in an old house), it's a no-brainer. Easy clean-up, non-toxic. Does the job. A heck of a lot cheaper. Win-win-win-win.

    Honestly, for a trailer-sailed boat, my opinion is that anyone arguing in favor of oil paints is behind the times. The latex stuff is plenty up to the job, as well as being easier and cheaper to use. Many will disagree!

    Tom
    Last edited by WI-Tom; 07-06-2022 at 09:38 PM.
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  14. #154
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    Default Re: A Seil in California

    Thank you all for the ideas. Just when a clear consensus emerges, Tom blows it up! I'm leaning toward Rick's suggested System III LPU, which seems to combine a lot of good features. I wish it came in something a bit warmer than a Bianchi celeste green:

    5e2be94872a102c687249f344f4cfd31--cycling-art-bianchi.jpg

    But it's not to be. Here are the options they offer:


    Rick, I wonder if you could share what color you chose for your beautiful walkabout and about how much paint you needed. You might think the color answer would be obvious, but I am quite literally colorblind, and can use all the help I can get.

  15. #155
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    Default Re: A Seil in California

    Quote Originally Posted by The Jeff View Post
    Nice progress! I haven't done anything lapstrake, but it looks like the CNC kit really speeds up planking.
    Sure does, Jeff! I have it down to this now:

    Day 1: Assemble matching set of strakes with thickened epoxy in puzzle joints.
    Day 2: Flatten glued joints (a sharp very very finely set block plane is currently the favorite); apply and fill 10 oz cloth over joint on inside face of strakes.


    Day 3: Bevel strakes on the bench, temporary hang on boat with copious screws, assemble and glue next set of strakes on workbench





    Day 4: Epoxy first set of strakes to boat; glass and fill second set of strakes



    So that's about two days per pair of strakes, at 3-6 hours per day. I wouldn't be half that fast the strakes weren't already cut at their final dimensions.

    - James

  16. #156
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    Default Re: A Seil in California

    Quote Originally Posted by pez_leon View Post
    Thank you all for the ideas. Just when a clear consensus emerges, Tom blows it up! I'm leaning toward Rick's suggested System III LPU, which seems to combine a lot of good features. I wish it came in something a bit warmer than a Bianchi celeste green:

    5e2be94872a102c687249f344f4cfd31--cycling-art-bianchi.jpg
    That's a nice green. Pale green is what all the best people are driving these days, or so I hear...

    DSCN5660 (2).jpg
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  17. #157
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    Default Re: A Seil in California

    Quote Originally Posted by pez_leon View Post
    Rick, I wonder if you could share what color you chose for your beautiful walkabout and about how much paint you needed. You might think the color answer would be obvious, but I am quite literally colorblind, and can use all the help I can get.
    I went with light colors due to the hot summer sun here. I bought a gallon of Orcas White and used it for the outer hull and interior, the deck is San Juan Tan (1 qt). After using the boat in the summer it was just too bright to have the whole interior white, so I re-painted the sole in Vashon Gray. The gray sole also has non-skid plastic beads mixed in. That is how it is painted now:



    I like your green idea better. On the System III website they say they can do more colors from their industrial color card for a $10 fee. Maybe 392 green or the bluer 405?
    https://www.systemthree.com/products...ial-color-card

  18. #158
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    Default Re: A Seil in California

    Those are some inspiring boats!
    Good find on the further color options for System 3. Looks like I should give them a call. I think the custom surcharge is closer to $40 per gallon, still very reasonable- the $10 looks to be for a physical copy of the color card itself. Do you think the gallon would cover both the interior and exterior of a boat the size of your walkabout?
    Also, Rick- what did you prime with and how did you like it?

    Thanks!

    - James

  19. #159
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    Default Re: A Seil in California

    James,

    I really like the celeste green myself--that's pretty much what I was looking for with my boat. I spent an hour in the store looking at sample cards for colors, brought home a half dozen color chips to set on the hull for an in-place assessment, came to the quick realization that it's impossible (for me) to judge the color of a boat from a tiny color chip sample, spent a few days agonizing over shades of green that I could hardly tell apart even when placed side by side, and finally chose one with no particularly good justification, painted the boat, and realized that the sunlight or shadow mutates the color from near-white to green to gray to everywhere in between from one minute to the next, so my painstaking color selection process was pretty much meaningless anyway.

    Not sure how my latex experience compares to Rick's LPU paint, but you might be able to do interior and exterior with a single gallon. Maybe. But, are you not going to have a separate interior color?

    I went with an almond interior (too white in real life but I'm too lazy to repaint) and a "yacht beige" (also too white in real life) for the decks. Makes a nice contrast--I think a boat the same color in and out would look... odd?

    Latex porch & floor enamel runs about $30 a gallon around here, lots of colors to choose from... Just saying...

    Tom
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  20. #160
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    Default Re: A Seil in California

    One more thought: I find that my pale green hull shows a pretty mean scum line after going through pondy backwaters and little marshes. Darker paint might handle that better--not sure what your sailing waters are like, but might be a consideration.

    Tom
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  21. #161
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    Default

    I used the System III water based epoxy primer on the outer hull, where I thought it needed some build up and fairing. Not sure it mattered much. On the deck and interior it was just a coat of plain epoxy then light sanding.
    A gallon for the entire boat, inside and out, might be a bit short, but as Tom says will there be multiple colors and some varnish?
    I do appreciate the economics of non-marine paint, and Tom had good results, but my experience with the household latex is it remains a bit softer. The LPU hardens up in a few weeks to a tough finish, this is where I felt the cost as percentage of the whole job not worth the risk.

  22. #162
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    Default Re: A Seil in California

    Very good points, Rick and Tom. At the moment I'm leaning toward painting at least the exterior in the System III "Bainbridge White", which the color-sighted members of my household assure me is something closer to a light sage green - gray. I'm sure I'll have a new opinion tomorrow. I am with you on the idea of a second color for the interior, which I had originally envisioned in something cream or tan before the thought of paying another $200 for the privilege offended my penurious parsimonious pinchpenny character enough that I might just try to eek the whole boat out of a gallon. In any event paining the interior is far enough off that I can postpone that decision. And I know, Tom: I am electing to pay five times what I probably need to. But it's marine! And Rick likes it.

    I need to source keel bands pretty soon. There are three of these: one on each sole-garboard joint, plus a third shorter band along the skeg. Brass half oval seems to be the default. Mr. Vivier also suggests the possibility of sacrificial hardwood battens instead. A third option, highly praised in older posts on this very forum, is HDPE plastic.

    At a glance, brass half oval would cost over $300 and seems tough to source locally. According to posters here who later replaced their brass, any metal is hard to push around on cobble beaches and trailers because it's soft enough to deform and thus sort of "stick" to rocks and obstacles. So it looks to be expensive, heavy, and functionally not very slick. Plus it'll never really be seen on this boat while the boat is in the water.

    Hardwood battens are appealing to me. I once built a deck from ipe lumber and retained a great respect for the way it wears - at least, it sure wears out tools! I think ipe is used untreated on docks and piers, so would not have any problem untreated on the bottom of a trailer-sailed boat. I have a call out to a local lumberyard that thinks they can rustle up a plank without the trouble of a special order.

    The TAP plastics down the block will provide 8' long strips of 1" wide 1/2" thick VHMW HDPE for about $16 each. That seems like a good way to go. Affixing this to the boat is slightly more complicated than just gluing on wood battens. HDPE moves a great deal with temperature and humidity changes, and so would probably need slotted holes at each of many fasteners.

    Any advice would be welcome.

  23. #163
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    Default Re: A Seil in California

    I was playing around with G10 when building my boat, so used some strips of it as bottom protection. It epoxy bonds just fine to wood or a layer of 'glass, which the VHMW does not and even the metal not as well. At only 1/8" thick it is good protection, but I thought it would be very little drag even at the edges of the garboards where water flow is not straight. Only matters for a rowboat....

    VHMW or UHMW would be the slipperiest if you plan to haul the boat over things a lot, but I would think hardwood would be plenty of protection, easiest to secure, and not much $$.

    This shows my G10, it wraps around the bow and I added a strip along the skeg also. This is really overkill, there are only a few scrapes on any of it after 12 years. The most useful is the strip along the bow, where I have hit quite a few hard things.


  24. #164
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    Default Re: A Seil in California

    This Navigator by Matt Davis just popped up on the Welsford FB group. I like the colors, thought it may be close to what you are planning.


  25. #165
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    Default Re: A Seil in California

    Thanks for the picture, Rick! It's great food for thought. I have been calling all over but can't find any Pennant Topside paint locally. Where did you get yours? Duckworks looks to be my best bet.

    - James

  26. #166
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    Default Re: A Seil in California

    The sheer strakes are on.



    ! In a perfect world, I would have liked to have the boat flipped over so that I could better eye the curve of the sheer before affixing it. I decided to trust in the kit and the design and go for it.

  27. #167
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    Default Re: A Seil in California

    Where the top of the sheerstrake meets the transom one leaves a 10 mm space for the rubrail. These joints are going to be very visible. When I first laid down the plank I was dismayed to see an awkward uneven gap. I shouldn't have worried- by clamping on a straight board 10 mm above the top of the sheerstrake, it's easy to make a guide that will provide a perfect cut. Here's the old cut and the new:


    And here's the very simple jig that made it:


    I am currently contemplating two slight deviations from the building sequence.

    One would be to lay down the rub rails/outwhales before turn over. These are rabbited over the sheerstrake (fitting into the gap between the top of the sheer and the transom). Gluing them on now would mean that I could paint right down to the sheerstrake-rubrail joint before turnover.

    Another idea is to affix the skeg before fiberglassing the sole, so that the entire bottom of the boat is encapsulated in a single layer of fiberglass. This has the advantage of really, really firmly attaching the skeg to the rest of the boat and of encapsulating the skeg. I'm not sure why the plans don't call for it- it seems that as long as I raidus and fillet well beforehand, the fiberglassing should not be any more difficult. Perhaps there is some concern about water getting to the plywood planking through damage to the skeg?

    Any thoughts on any of that would be appreciated.

    James

  28. #168
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    Default Re: A Seil in California

    Glassing that hull won't be the easiest of tasks.Do you have any laminating experience?If not,I suggest making a small test piece a couple of feet long and about three plans wide to gain some.Its much better to do your learning on something of no significance.

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    Default Re: A Seil in California

    I wouldn't glass over the skeg--I think it'd be hard to make that many sharp corners. I'd glass the hull, and then put the skeg on with a healthy fillet as reinforcement.

    Tom
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    Default Re: A Seil in California

    Glassing OVER the skeg with the same cloth you’re covering the bottom with will be a nightmare. If you insist on glassing the skeg, do it afterwards. You can use scraps cut from the piece covering the bottom. Small patches are much easier to manipulate around corners and odd shapes, and skegs are generally not fun to glass.

    Why glass this bottom, anyway? That looks like very nice ply, and a little glass over the bottom ain’t adding much appreciable strength, bit will add weight. I avoid glassing boats as much as possible, anymore; and I build from crappy fir ply.

  31. #171
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    Default Re: A Seil in California

    I would not glass over the skeg either. That sounds like making the job much harder for little gain. Will the skeg be solid wood? Epoxy bonded, with generous fillets, plus maybe a few screws from inside and the skeg will not come off.

    How far up the planks does the glass go?

    For the paint, I bought mine over a decade ago but yes it was from Duckworks.

  32. #172
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    Default Re: A Seil in California

    Cross posting with Rob but yes, what he said. Glass only for some abrasion protection, not needed for strength. Bottom and garboards only. Maybe on this boat add some strips farther out at the bow.

  33. #173
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    Default Re: A Seil in California

    Thank you all for the quick replies. I can see from your unanimity that this is not one of my better ideas. Even Tom agrees!

    The skeg is a solid piece of hardwood. It has yet to be fitted or tapered, but here's the rough:


    As per your advice (and the plans) it will be epoxied and screwed in place after fiberglassing.

    And thank you to all of you who encourage moderation with the fiberglass. As per the plans, I'm only glassing the sole and garboards. This means that I don't have to carry the glass over a single lap. I think that this much glassing is intended both for abrasion resistance and to reinforce the sole-garboard joint, which is otherwise a bit thin.

    - James

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    Default Re: A Seil in California

    My skeg is 3/4" yellow pine and I only epoxied it on. I did shape the squeeze out into nice fillets between it and the keel. I haven't hit it with the intention of breaking it off, but you can thump it pretty hard with your fist and it feels really solid. I figure if something hits it hard enough to break it off it might be easier to fix it if there aren't metal fasteners buried inside.



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    Default Re: A Seil in California

    Quote Originally Posted by pez_leon View Post
    Thank you all for the quick replies. I can see from your unanimity that this is not one of my better ideas. Even Tom agrees!

    The skeg is a solid piece of hardwood. It has yet to be fitted or tapered, but here's the rough:


    As per your advice (and the plans) it will be epoxied and screwed in place after fiberglassing.

    And thank you to all of you who encourage moderation with the fiberglass. As per the plans, I'm only glassing the sole and garboards. This means that I don't have to carry the glass over a single lap. I think that this much glassing is intended both for abrasion resistance and to reinforce the sole-garboard joint, which is otherwise a bit thin.

    - James

    Perfectly sensible and sounds simple enough. As to glassing, I tend to err on the side of the designer (unless the designer is me ).
    Keep grinding m you’re getting close!

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