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Thread: A Seil in California

  1. #36
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    Default Re: A Seil in California

    If you make it to NACA006 it will be 1/2 as thick and fit the centrecase.

  2. #37
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    Default Re: A Seil in California

    Quote Originally Posted by John hartmann View Post
    I would make it as planned. A “thin foil” with rounded edge and a taper over the trailing 1/3rd will be fine, and so will your windward performance.
    That's my conclusion as well. Of course, being a non-"type A" sailor who has never sailed with a fat NACA foil, you'd be wise to take my comments with a pillar of salt.

    But it's easy to round off the leading edge and taper the back of a thin foil as John says, which will provide far superior performance compared to a flat board.

    Tom
    You don't have to be prepared as long as you're willing to suffer the consequences.

    www.tompamperin.com

  3. #38
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    Default Re: A Seil in California

    The advice I have seen and followed regarding NACA profiles on thin boards is to use the profile for a thicker foil in order to leave enough material to preserve the board's strength, and just leave it flat where it is thinner than the NACA profile. Flat sided boards with leading and trailing edges shaped to NACA profiles are evidently pretty close in performance to boards with the full profile they are based on.

    Because of the flat sides they are pretty easy to make using templates and sanding jigs as shown here: https://www.storerboatplans.com/foil...ormance-by-10/

  4. #39
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    Default Re: A Seil in California

    Quote Originally Posted by cracked lid View Post
    The advice I have seen and followed regarding NACA profiles on thin boards is to use the profile for a thicker foil in order to leave enough material to preserve the board's strength, and just leave it flat where it is thinner than the NACA profile. Flat sided boards with leading and trailing edges shaped to NACA profiles are evidently pretty close in performance to boards with the full profile they are based on.

    Because of the flat sides they are pretty easy to make using templates and sanding jigs as shown here: https://www.storerboatplans.com/foil...ormance-by-10/
    This +1
    basically keep the board as drawn and tart it up a bit with some nice shapes

    The best thing about spending a bit of time on this is that the not only does the boat handle a bit better and maybe it's a bit faster, but the slow speed maneuvering characteristics are significantly improved. Everyone shapes for speed, but I see the most benefit at slower speeds in tight places. This is nice for docking, ghosting creeks, and other such things.

  5. #40
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    Default Re: A Seil in California

    I think I remember reading somewhere on the forum that there are low hanging gains to be made just from shaping the leading edge to a parabolic rather than round shape, and tapering the trailing edge.

  6. #41
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    Default Re: A Seil in California

    I've been intensely busy with everything except the boat. On the few days I've had a chance to get out to the shop, air quality has been so bad that I've hesitated to linger outside (or in my open air workspace). Some days this can all add up to a lot of pent-up pressure and a real desire for manual, tactile work. Thankfully there's parts of this project that can be done in the house.
    My sail kit from Sailrite showed up last Friday.




    I spent a couple of very happy hours this weekend working on patch assemblies. At first I made the mistake of trying to work while my kids were awake. If you add in the cats this made for a crew of five rascals and scallywags, all of whom had different approaches to, and opinions on, the project. Is the thread for eating, or for tying gordian knots? Should we crush tomatoes into the dacron, or just grapes, and wouldn't this be a great place to cough up a hairball? No one could agree on what to do next. I'd like to report that the ragtag bunch of misfits finally pulled together to win the championship and finish the sail. I cannot. The best solution has been to save the project for nights after kid bedtime
    I'm very pleased with the kit from sailrite. Everything they shipped looks top notch, and it really is hard to mess up the overall assembly. I'm less pleased with my stitching. I'm assured that from any distance it looks just fine; personally I can't help but notice all the errors. But I'm not too bent out of shape. In a couple years I'll look at the wild zags and drunken, unfair lines of thread and remember happy nights stuck inside with sleeping kids and wretchedly unhelpful cats.

    James

  7. #42
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    Default Re: A Seil in California

    James-

    I really enjoy and empathize with your posts. Up here in Oregon we had about two weeks of off the charts hazardous air. Add cats and small children into the mix and yes, that is sure to be slow down to work. I learned to sew sails about eight years ago when a friend and former pro sailmaker helped me out. Once a week we'd transform my living room into a sail loft. Out went the rug, chairs, and couch. I stopped him from putting tacks into my fir floor to hold materials in place. Instead, my kids (who were in late elementary school) were conscripted to help, but were kept away from The Beast. That being a commercial size sewing machine that I was warned would comfortably sew through sail cloth, plywood, and fingers.

    Sewing was one of my favorite parts.

    And no fingers or children were physically harmed in the process.

    Good luck.

    -Bruce
    Tales from the land and sea: http://terrapintales.wordpress.com/

  8. #43
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    Default Re: A Seil in California

    Boy can I relate! I have been working on my mast which is too big to do anywhere but outside, and the bad smoke days were just lost as far as getting anything done -- not to mention the toll on keeping the kids cooped up inside.

  9. #44
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    Default Re: A Seil in California

    Hi James,

    I believe you can make NACA 00XX foils in any thickness you want. The 0012 and 0009 foils are just pre-calculated thicknesses. I'm not an expert by any means, that's just the conclusion I came to after a bit of reading.

    Use this calculator with camber set to 0%

    http://airfoiltools.com/airfoil/naca4digit

    If you're worried about strength you can make the boards out of laminated solid wood instead of plywood. You can also cut a groove on either side of the board and lay in unidirectional carbon fiber strands, see this article for more: https://www.epoxyworks.com/index.php...-centerboards/

    Richard Woods has a reputation for designing fast boats and he specifies 5% thick daggerboards on his strider catamaran, so there are high performance boats with thin foils. See here for a strider going fast: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KNyyHo-O-xs

    This looks like a great project and I'm looking forward to seeing your progress!

    Nick

    Edit: When you calculate the foil make it longer than the finished board so the trailing edge is 2-3mm thick and squared off, not razor sharp and fragile.
    Last edited by seasnail; 10-07-2020 at 08:00 PM.

  10. #45
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    Default Re: A Seil in California

    Quote Originally Posted by seasnail View Post
    I believe you can make NACA 00XX foils in any thickness you want... If you're worried about strength you can make the boards out of laminated solid wood instead of plywood. You can also cut a groove on either side of the board and lay in unidirectional carbon fiber strands, see this article for more: https://www.epoxyworks.com/index.php...-centerboards/
    Quote Originally Posted by cracked lid View Post
    The advice I have seen and followed regarding NACA profiles on thin boards is to use the profile for a thicker foil in order to leave enough material to preserve the board's strength, and just leave it flat where it is thinner than the NACA profile.
    Quote Originally Posted by callsign222 View Post
    basically keep the board as drawn and tart it up a bit with some nice shapes

    Thanks for all this advice on the boards. I've got the blanks just about complete (laminated solid ash) and will probably use the NACA 0012 profile with flats, as described by cracked lid. I have been planning to lay paracord into a groove around the permiter of the board to strengthen the leading and trailing edges. I think it'll be sufficient for my needs, but then again, there's something satisfying about even just saying "unidirectional carbon fiber".
    I really appreciate all your advice.

  11. #46
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    Default Re: A Seil in California

    Quote Originally Posted by nrs5000 View Post
    Boy can I relate! I have been working on my mast which is too big to do anywhere but outside, and the bad smoke days were just lost as far as getting anything done -- not to mention the toll on keeping the kids cooped up inside.
    You're building a BB14, right? How's the project coming? I was wondering if you got the Sitka Spruce for your spars from McBeath, and how you found working with it. I'm still waffling between shelling out for sitka or just cutting my mast staves from clear lengths of DF 2x12s. I should decide soon: the DF 2x12s down at the lumber yard are pretty green, and I'd want them to have plenty of time to dry.
    What are your plans for sails? If you're interested in making your own, you'd be welcome to borrow my spur grommet and eyelet dies.

  12. #47
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    Default Re: A Seil in California

    Quote Originally Posted by Bruce Bateau View Post
    Up here in Oregon we had about two weeks of off the charts hazardous air.
    I feel for you, Bruce. On our bad days I'd see that Oregon and Washington numbers were twice as high and wonder what that would even feel like. What a year.
    Thanks for the story and the well wishes. I always look forward to your next post or article.

    James

  13. #48
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    Default Re: A Seil in California



    This picture brought back some old memories of my cats, (Alice the black cat and Chip the tabby) coming to supervise my sailmaking. Still have fur stuck in the seams, that basting tape is tenacious.
    Steve

    If you would have a good boat, be a good guy when you build her - honest, careful, patient, strong.
    H.A. Calahan

  14. #49
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    Default Re: A Seil in California

    Quote Originally Posted by pez_leon View Post
    You're building a BB14, right? How's the project coming? I was wondering if you got the Sitka Spruce for your spars from McBeath, and how you found working with it. I'm still waffling between shelling out for sitka or just cutting my mast staves from clear lengths of DF 2x12s. I should decide soon: the DF 2x12s down at the lumber yard are pretty green, and I'd want them to have plenty of time to dry.
    What are your plans for sails? If you're interested in making your own, you'd be welcome to borrow my spur grommet and eyelet dies.
    The project is well along, I am about done with spars and the next thing is to flip the boat and fair and paint the outside. Then blades, ballast keel and rigging.

    I got the Sitka from MacBeath, yes. I don't have a basis of comparison, I haven't worked with it before, but it's been a pleasure to work with. There were few hidden blemishes that I had to deal with, the grain is tight and straight, no complaints. The Herreshoff design calls for a quite light hollow mast so I felt it was worth the expense to use sitka. Is Seil's mast hollow?

    Thanks for the offer on the sailmaking stuff, I had sails made and received them recently, which has added to my impetus to get the boat finished!

  15. #50
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    Default Re: A Seil in California


    No progress on the Seil! Why? Because it was too good of a weekend for sailing. I got out for an overnght on my fiberglass trailer sailer on new-to-me Spicer Meadows Reservoir. Let's call it reconnaissance for future sail and oar trips.

    We put in at the boat ramp on the west end of the lake just as the afternoon up-canyon wind came in. This late in the season, the water level was about 40' below capacity, leaving a starkly delineated bathtub ring. Above the mark - firs and pines, glaucous shrubs, and dark lichen. Below- bleached white granite, dead tree roots, clear water, and our little boat.
    Five miles of increasingly speedy downwind sailing brought us to the first passable boat-shaped nook with enough shelter to pull up and rest for lunch - somewhere around the "mile 10" marker on that map. Normally, we'd eat gourmet, but on account of our 2020 firestorm the national forest has categorically banned any heat source. Without the incentive of hot meals we got lazy, omitting to pack, among other things, any kind of mug, bowl, pot, or spoon. So we ate crackers, apples, and cold Folgers coffee reconstituted in bad beer. Beer, because I forgot all my extra water bottles and was now feeling in too much of a tearing hurry to wait 30 minutes for my iodine water purifier.
    The rush to get back on the water was possibly the only smart thing about our day so far. We were about as trapped as my boat can get, with the nearest soft landing miles back the way we came and right into the eye of the growing wind. We packed on layers of synthetic clothes, cleared the boat for a capsize, tied in a reef, exchanged our wills, and launched.
    Then there were two hours of fantastic tricky sailing without a moment to think of anything else. The wind was strong and right in our teeth except for the rare moment when it would back all the way around the clock to utterly foul a tack. Every possible course ran through, behind, and just over dead trees and boulders. The canyon was so narrow we'd hardly have time to work up speed between tacks, and because the reservoir was so far below its high water line, the entire coast was hard granite walls and dead roots.

    This was perhaps not the best way to sell a greenhorn on mountain sailing. To his great credit my crew loved it. He was unfazed by chop pouring over the deck and into his lap; he was unfazed by a few near-knockdowns scooping dozens of gallons of water over the lee rail; he was unfazed when my task-loaded brain failed to clearly tell him what to do with the suddenly backwinded jib and our head was pushed around to leave us sailing at tearing speed downwind, missing the rocky coast by mere inches. We were drinking joy from a fire hose. But the wind was only building: no amount of hiking out kept her even near level; and in the worst gusts she'd round up even with the main played all the way out and the tiller hard over. We hadn't said a word to each other for maybe an hour when we saw a little boat-shaped cove, possibly the only safe harbor for miles. A significant look, a nod, and a final tack brought us into the lee of a cliff with just enough time to drop the main as the bow kissed into the only soft sand we saw all day. It didn't matter that we were still in the narrows and increasingly wind bound- we were safe ashore and ready to wait it out.
    The cove was made by some kind of cut in the canyon wall, likely an old fire road. We followed it straight up into a marvelous campsite. I liked the way the wind knocked my hat off as I was pitching my tent- just another reason to feel glad to be off the water. We took an afternoon stroll up to the top of a local hill for a view of our day's sailing.

    The view from our hike. Note the boat down there!
    The next morning I awoke to exactly the conditions we had hoped for: a soft, down-canyon breeze blowing us back home. The predictability of this mountain weather made it no less welcome. But where was the crew? Up early, and off somewhere out of contact, perhaps on some lubberly walk. I scurried about packing and considered hoisting a blue shirt to the masthead. He showed up when he was good and ready. Thankfully the wind still served when we launched, at least long enough to carry us through the narrows and into the reservoir proper. We sailed along with one hand for breakfast crackers and another for cold instant coffee, leaving the boat to steer herself, marveling at how easily we made our mileage compared to the previous afternoon. When the breeze died fully we struck sails, brought out the trolling motor, and hustled home.
    Last edited by pez_leon; 10-12-2020 at 05:56 PM.

  16. #51
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    Default Re: A Seil in California

    The excitement should end there. But wait! There's more! I would argue that the speed at which I took a tight, unbanked downhill turn on that mountain road was entirely reasonable, well below any kind of danger. My boat trailer would disagree. It jumped off the ball and fell over sideways. The boat skidded along on its side and now has road rash to show for it.

    Everything was easy to right and to re-attach, and now I have an opportunity to learn more about fiberglassing before I sheathe my rudder and centerboard. I wonder if the great minds on this forum would want to weigh in on what happened. I haven't heard of a trailer tipping over before, and I'm not sure how it managed to get off the ball. I suspect something is either defective or misadjusted with the coupling on the trailer side. The cam lever was still down (and padlocked) after the trailer fell over. So how did it get off the ball? I clearly need to do something differently.

  17. #52
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    Default Re: A Seil in California

    Ouch! Fun until that happened...

    Obvious dumb question: Is the ball size correct for the coupler? More questions: Did you see if the trailer uncoupling caused the fall, or did the twisting fall yank the coupler off? Did the chains catch it, or did the coupler strike pavement?

    -Rick

  18. #53
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    Default Re: A Seil in California

    Great trip! Sorry about the trailer...

    I really enjoy your write-ups, by the way. Thanks,

    Tom
    You don't have to be prepared as long as you're willing to suffer the consequences.

    www.tompamperin.com

  19. #54
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    Default Re: A Seil in California

    Rick, thanks for the ideas. The ball and the trailer match. You can bet I spent a while staring at the engraving on the coupler and the ball, just to confirm. The coupler did include some language about "adjusting to the ball", so I checked the nut at the bottom of the cam lever. I turned it a bit (less than a full turn) and it did feel more snug - but not very different. I spent the rest of the drive worrying I'd made it too tight.
    I don't have a great sense of sequence at the time of the crash. My suspicion is that the twisting fall yanked the coupler off the ball, but I can't confirm. The trailer chains were not crossed underneath but instead running in parallel, so they did not catch the coupler. Thanks to your question, I now know why I should cross them!

  20. #55
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    Default Re: A Seil in California

    I always remember - don't cross the streams, but DO cross the chains! "It would be bad..."


  21. #56
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    Default Re: A Seil in California

    Perfect mnemonic, Rick. I myself have been reflecting on this movie clip:

  22. #57
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    Default Re: A Seil in California

    Hey Pez! What a cool project. I can't wait to see the build progress. I've been eyeing Seil for a while. Vivier's eye is really something.

    I'm also in the bay area. After building a 16' Dierking Wa'apa and a partnership in a J/92 a sail and oar boat feels like the next step for me; something for

    I have a little experience with foils and lug rigs I wanted to share.

    I converted Gary's Wa'apa files into CNC cutable files. I cut the leeboard and rudder with a NACA profile that had the chord length that Gary drew, but with a thickness that came out to 1.5" so that I could cut each half from 3/4" plywood on the CNC without having to flip any parts. Is a NACA section board better than a flat board with a rounded leading edge and a sharp trailing edge? Probably, but I don't know how much more lift, and how much less drag there would be. All I know is that my lug rigged stone age canoe claws to windward like a beast. You can look at the surface piercing foils working on my boat and they look slippery.

    I used a CLC 60 sq.ft. lug sail and build the spars to their spec. My canoe has hiking seats so my butt is at least 18" outboard of the gunwale, and I am not a small person, so there was a lot more righting moment than the little dinghies that the sail was designed for. The mast bent like a fishing rod with a tuna on the hook. I ended up adding a braided carbon tube to the wooden mast and my sail control was wildly improved. I'm a big fan of the goat island skiff style of rigging. My new 4:1 outhaul can get that thing as flat as you want.

    Standing lugs with a sprit boom feel SUPER interesting. But my Seil would probably have the balanced lug righ with lazy jacks so that dropping the sail will be less of a yard sail than my current set up.

    I'm really looking forward to seeing your progress!

    Chris

  23. #58
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    Default Re: A Seil in California

    This project has barely started and already we're taking detours.



    Harry Bryan's article on spar gauges in the most recent edition of WB got me thinking about my frustrations with the gauge I'd used on my oars. I liked the more complicated gauge he described, and I liked the idea of making metal bits that I would have thought out of the reach of my workshop. I'm pleased with the result and looking forward to using it on my mast and yard.

    It marks well:


    And passed inspection by the supervisor:


    James

  24. #59
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    Default Re: A Seil in California

    Quote Originally Posted by luomanen View Post

    I'm also in the bay area. After building a 16' Dierking Wa'apa ...
    Quote Originally Posted by luomanen View Post
    The mast bent like a fishing rod with a tuna on the hook. I ended up adding a braided carbon tube to the wooden mast and my sail control was wildly improved.
    Chris, I'd LOVE to see your outrigger sometime. I bought Dierking's book and thought hard about building a Taman'u. Warmer water, fewer kids, who knows what could have happened. Do you ever sail out of the east bay?

    Quote Originally Posted by luomanen View Post
    I cut the leeboard and rudder with a NACA profile that had the chord length that Gary drew, but with a thickness that came out to 1.5" so that I could cut each half from 3/4" plywood on the CNC without having to flip any parts
    Clever. I'm going to stick with the spec'd thickness of the board (got the blanks just about made up) out of respect for the design and fear of cascading, unplanned changes. I'm also looking forward to shaping the board by hand. I once made a rudder from a table of offsets and, at the risk of sounding totally wonky, it was a nearly mystical experience. I'm not a great drafter, craftsman, or technician; yet somehow, I got to watch my hands turn a bunch of numbers in an ASCII chart into an exquisitely and precisely shaped wing. I'm looking forward to some good winter nights in the shop.

  25. #60
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    Default Re: A Seil in California

    Nice gauge! It is often serendipitous what turns up in WoodenBoat magazine, but in my case the latest issue arrived on the day I began varnishing my spars. I wish it had been in the prior issue, I could have made one of those and avoided the frustration of using the usual simpler spar gauge!

  26. #61
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    Default Re: A Seil in California

    Yowza! I need to up my game with my spar gauge.


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