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Thread: Mitch McConnell is increasingly vulnerable in Kentucky, thank God.

  1. #36
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    Default Re: Mitch McConnell is increasingly vulnerable in Kentucky, thank God.

    Quote Originally Posted by WI-Tom View Post
    If we can't have a competitive primary because we're blind to all principles but the need to defeat specific candidates, then we've gone too far.

    Tom
    Would you define these principles please as I'm not certain what they are? Some statements need rethinking a time or two and this looks like one of them to me.
    Tom L

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    Default Re: Mitch McConnell is increasingly vulnerable in Kentucky, thank God.

    Quote Originally Posted by George Jung View Post
    Wi-Tom - I have to wonder about you!
    Everybody does...

    I agree defeating McConnell is crucial. When a candidate is chosen, the smart thing will be for all voters to support that candidate. But, I'd argue, not before. If voters can't have ANY opportunity to support the candidate they think is best, that's a failure of democracy. In the long run, that's the kind of thing that will drive voters away from a party, or cause a Tea Party-style party takeover bid.

    People whining about Sanders being a "spoiler" seem to forget how he transitioned from "candidate" to "Biden supporter and campaigner" once the official nomination came in.

    I don't view idealism and results as mutually exclusive, necessarily. Sometimes, yes. Certainly the risk is high with Trump and McConnell in play, so I understand the desire for caution. But caution, too, brings its own risks.

    Tom
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  3. #38
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    Default Re: Mitch McConnell is increasingly vulnerable in Kentucky, thank God.

    Quote Originally Posted by oznabrag View Post
    If history is any guide, he'll vanish.
    Ahem...

    Sanders, who formally suspended his campaign last week, said he needed everyone — not just his supporters — to back Biden and make sure that President Trump becomes a one-term president.“Today, I am asking all Americans — I'm asking every Democrat; I’m asking every independent; I’m asking a lot of Republicans — to come together in this campaign to support your candidacy, which I endorse, to make certain that we defeat somebody who I believe is the most dangerous president in the modern history of this country,” Sanders told Biden.

    “I will do all that I can to see that that happens, Joe,” Sanders pledged, after calling Trump a racist, a sexist, a xenophobe and a religious bigot who botched the nation’s initial response to the coronavirus pandemic.
    SOURCE

    Tom
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  4. #39
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    Default Re: Mitch McConnell is increasingly vulnerable in Kentucky, thank God.

    Quote Originally Posted by WI-Tom View Post
    Everybody does...

    I agree defeating McConnell is crucial. When a candidate is chosen, the smart thing will be for all voters to support that candidate. But, I'd argue, not before. If voters can't have ANY opportunity to support the candidate they think is best, that's a failure of democracy. In the long run, that's the kind of thing that will drive voters away from a party, or cause a Tea Party-style party takeover bid.

    People whining about Sanders being a "spoiler" seem to forget how he transitioned from "candidate" to "Biden supporter and campaigner" once the official nomination came in.

    I don't view idealism and results as mutually exclusive, necessarily. Sometimes, yes. Certainly the risk is high with Trump and McConnell in play, so I understand the desire for caution. But caution, too, brings its own risks.

    Tom
    Yeah?

    I get several emails from the DNC and others every day, trumpeting support for Biden

    They never use Sanders' name.

    Wonder why that is.
    Rattling the teacups.

  5. #40
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    Default Re: Mitch McConnell is increasingly vulnerable in Kentucky, thank God.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Lathrop View Post
    Would you define these principles please as I'm not certain what they are? Some statements need rethinking a time or two and this looks like one of them to me.
    Here's a few off the top of my head:

    1. Voters should choose candidates, not the other way around.

    2. People have the right to vote for, and support, any candidate they choose. In fact, I'd argue they have a duty to do so.

    3. Political organizations lose credibility when they are perceived to be trying to limit people's choices, or make those choices for them. That happened to Democrats in 2016, with disastrous results. If candidates are chosen by a primary process, that process needs to be transparent, fair, and as unbiased as possible.

    Tom
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  6. #41
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    Default Re: Mitch McConnell is increasingly vulnerable in Kentucky, thank God.

    While obviously beating Mitch is #1 - how does it hurt McGrath to have a primary? Seems to me it'll help her hone her message - but then Booker hasn't been blessed with DNC water, so he's just a minion to the anti-Christ. For those confused - that's Bernie - as we all know he makes Trump look good.
    "If it ain't broke, you're not trying." - Red Green

  7. #42
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    Default Re: Mitch McConnell is increasingly vulnerable in Kentucky, thank God.

    Quote Originally Posted by WI-Tom View Post
    Here's a few off the top of my head:

    1. Voters should choose candidates, not the other way around.

    2. People have the right to vote for, and support, any candidate they choose. In fact, I'd argue they have a duty to do so.

    3. Political organizations lose credibility when they are perceived to be trying to limit people's choices, or make those choices for them. That happened to Democrats in 2016, with disastrous results. If candidates are chosen by a primary process, that process needs to be transparent, fair, and as unbiased as possible.

    Tom
    You're just talking crazy talk Tom! I mean that sounds like - gasp - democracy.
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  8. #43
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    Default Re: Mitch McConnell is increasingly vulnerable in Kentucky, thank God.

    Quote Originally Posted by Garret View Post
    While obviously beating Mitch is #1 - how does it hurt McGrath to have a primary? Seems to me it'll help her hone her message - but then Booker hasn't been blessed with DNC water, so he's just a minion to the anti-Christ. For those confused - that's Bernie - as we all know he makes Trump look good.
    I don't think Bernie's the anti-christ. I voted for him in the primary, fer gosh sakes.

    I DO think he's less than useful in promoting anyone but himself in these things.

    Sorry, man.

    Also, Tom seems to believe we have the luxury of being finicky.

    We don't.
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  9. #44
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    Default Re: Mitch McConnell is increasingly vulnerable in Kentucky, thank God.

    People have the right to vote for, and support, any candidate they choose. In fact, I'd argue they have a duty to do so.
    OK, sure. And one very important thing a responsible voter will consider when choosing to vote for a candidate in the primary is their chance of actually winning in the general election. Voting for ideological purity and then losing the election is self-indulgent stupidity.
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  10. #45
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    Default Re: Mitch McConnell is increasingly vulnerable in Kentucky, thank God.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Montgomery View Post
    .
    The campaign manager for the McConnell Senate Committee wrote an opinion piece that was published by the Courier-Journal about 3 hours ago: Mitch McConnell is indispensable for Kentucky and should be rehired in the fall.

    Mitch's campaign manager claims that "our homegrown majority leader" leads in times of crisis and brings "resources back to the Bluegrass."

    I disagree about Mitch's leadership qualities. But I will not dispute that Mitch has spent 30 years effectively delivering the pork to Kentucky.
    I've read, repeatedly, that Kentucky is one of the poorest states in the union. I'd have thought that if he was as good as he says, that would not be the case.

    John Welsford
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    Default Re: Mitch McConnell is increasingly vulnerable in Kentucky, thank God.

    Quote Originally Posted by Keith Wilson View Post
    OK, sure. And one very important thing a responsible voter will consider when choosing to vote for a candidate in the primary is their chance of actually winning in the general election. Voting for ideological purity and then losing the election is self-indulgent stupidity.
    But even granting your premise that the only responsible thing to do is toe the line and vote for the annointed (which is not Absolute Truth by any means), a candidate's chance of winning is pure speculation (if it were not so, Clinton would be president right now, yes?) So, it follows that there is room for genuine disagreement on which one has the better chance.

    You don't build a "big tent" by scolding those who dare to vote for a candidate you don't like in the primary. Or by assuming that their reasons to support the candidate of their choice are "self-indulgent stupidity."

    Tom
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  12. #47
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    Default Re: Mitch McConnell is increasingly vulnerable in Kentucky, thank God.

    Quote Originally Posted by Garret View Post
    You're just talking crazy talk Tom! I mean that sounds like - gasp - democracy.
    Yep. It seems to scare a lot of people, eh?

    Tom
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  13. #48
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    Default Re: Mitch McConnell is increasingly vulnerable in Kentucky, thank God.

    Quote Originally Posted by WI-Tom View Post
    Yep. It seems to scare a lot of people, eh?

    Tom
    Yes it does. I'm surprised at some of the fear.
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  14. #49
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    Default Re: Mitch McConnell is increasingly vulnerable in Kentucky, thank God.

    Quote Originally Posted by twodot View Post
    That statement from Bernie is two months old.



    Nobody is 'whining' about Sanders any more than people are always whining on the side of Sanders.



    A lot of things happened in 2016. One could equally argue that...oh, never mind...we have hashed this all over countless time.



    Hyperbole.



    Nobody is scolding anyone.



    Not really.

    Good gosh, folks, you don't need to make hyperbolic statements to attack.

    I am simply saying that the goal is to beat Mitch. Having Bernie and AOC back the presumptive losing horse in the primary, and a likely loser to Mitch in the general, is not the best approach. The goal is not to pull the Dems to the left in the primary, while giving Mitch ammunition and doing his work, rather, the goal is to beat Mitch.
    We're not attacking - just supporting democracy.
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    Default Re: Mitch McConnell is increasingly vulnerable in Kentucky, thank God.

    Quote Originally Posted by Garret View Post
    We're not attacking - just supporting democracy.
    Rattling the teacups.

  16. #51
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    Default Re: Mitch McConnell is increasingly vulnerable in Kentucky, thank God.

    Quote Originally Posted by twodot View Post
    That statement from Bernie is two months old.
    Here's one from yesterday's New Yorker--is that recent enough for you?

    Longer-term, obviously, what I am trying to do is to bring people together to defeat Trump and to elect Biden. It is no great secret that Joe Biden and I have very serious political differences, but, at this particular moment in history, what is most important is to defeat Trump, who, as you implied a moment ago, is literally a threat to American democracy, and is moving this country not only in a dangerous way but in an authoritarian way, as well. Trump has got to be defeated and, in a variety of ways, I intend to play an active role in that process.
    SOURCE

    Quote Originally Posted by twodot View Post
    Nobody is scolding anyone.
    I think one could quite reasonably disagree with that claim.

    Quote Originally Posted by Keith Wilson View Post
    Voting for ideological purity and then losing the election is self-indulgent stupidity.
    Then this:

    Quote Originally Posted by twodot View Post
    I am simply saying that the goal is to beat Mitch. Having Bernie and AOC back the presumptive losing horse in the primary, and a likely loser to Mitch in the general, is not the best approach. The goal is not to pull the Dems to the left in the primary, while giving Mitch ammunition and doing his work, rather, the goal is to beat Mitch.
    Since when does any one person get to set "the" goal? (Thought I happen to agree with that goal). Or decide which horse will lose? That didn't go at all as predicted last time.

    Tom
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    Default Re: Mitch McConnell is increasingly vulnerable in Kentucky, thank God.

    "the goal is to beat Mitch."

    Concentrate!

  18. #53
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    Default Re: Mitch McConnell is increasingly vulnerable in Kentucky, thank God.

    Quote Originally Posted by oznabrag View Post
    Yeah?

    I get several emails from the DNC and others every day, trumpeting support for Biden

    They never use Sanders' name.

    Wonder why that is.
    Perhaps it's because of their disdain and hostility to the progressive wing of the party?

    A hostility, I'm happy to see, that Biden does not seem to share.

    Tom
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  19. #54
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    Default Re: Mitch McConnell is increasingly vulnerable in Kentucky, thank God.

    Quote Originally Posted by twodot View Post
    "It is no great secret that Joe Biden and I have very serious political differences..."



    Good lord. With friends like Sanders, who needs enemies. He just can't get over himself.
    So you disagree with him, then? Here's the bit you didn't cite:

    what is most important is to defeat Trump
    Tom
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    Default Re: Mitch McConnell is increasingly vulnerable in Kentucky, thank God.

    Quote Originally Posted by Garret View Post
    We're not attacking - just supporting democracy.
    And Tom --

    Theoretically - I agree. I think we all do... so hammering on THAT side of things is both bootless and aggravating. Do stop... it reeks of straw.


    Because the real question is a tactical one. Does it makes sense to have a robust battle in the primary? Why/why not?

    Does it make sense to have a progressive in the race? I'd argue that there's no chance that he'd win the general, even if he won the primary. Do the benefits you see of having him in outweigh the risk of him winning that primary and losing the chance to depose _itch? Why?

    Since I believe that voters in the state who have grown weary - or leery - of _itch need someone non-scary they can comfortably migrate to... do you think having a progressive in the race perhaps allows McGrath to position herself as the 'moderate'? I could certainly see how that might be advantageous. "I'm a radical? No... Mr. Booker is far more radical than me. I'm the more sane, less corrupt NON-radical alternative to _itch".

    Or do you think, because it IS likely to be a close race, with all resources desperately needed, it would be better to keep our powder dry, coalesce behind McGrath, and focus ALL those resources on knocking _itch off his pedestal... wasting none on a primary battle (that's going nowhere anyway?)?
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    Default Re: Mitch McConnell is increasingly vulnerable in Kentucky, thank God.

    Diligently guarding the window while the fascists pour in through the door.
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    Default Re: Mitch McConnell is increasingly vulnerable in Kentucky, thank God.

    Quote Originally Posted by twodot View Post
    If the most important thing is to defeat Trump, then he shouldn't lead with stating that he disagrees with Biden.


    He needs to subjugate his ego.
    Precisely.

    I'm very sorry to see that AOC is being snookered into this bullspit.


    This is ELECTORAL POLITICS, people, not some goram policy debate.
    Rattling the teacups.

  23. #58
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    Default Re: Mitch McConnell is increasingly vulnerable in Kentucky, thank God.

    Quote Originally Posted by WI-Tom View Post
    But even granting your premise that the only responsible thing to do is toe the line and vote for the annointed (which is not Absolute Truth by any means), a candidate's chance of winning is pure speculation (if it were not so, Clinton would be president right now, yes?) So, it follows that there is room for genuine disagreement on which one has the better chance.

    You don't build a "big tent" by scolding those who dare to vote for a candidate you don't like in the primary. Or by assuming that their reasons to support the candidate of their choice are "self-indulgent stupidity."
    Excuse me? Where did I say you had to vote for the 'anointed' candidate (by which I assume you mean the one favored by the party organization)? I said that it is very important to think about a candidate's chances of winning the general election when deciding to who to support in the primary. Do you disagree? None of us are very good at predicting the future, but it's certainly one major factor to consider, yes? And what I called ' self-indulgent stupidity' was choosing ideological purity and then losing the general election because of it, not failing to vote for the candidate favored by the party.

    Before you argue with me, it might help to read what I actually wrote and understand what I meant.
    Last edited by Keith Wilson; 06-10-2020 at 10:00 PM.
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  24. #59
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    Default Re: Mitch McConnell is increasingly vulnerable in Kentucky, thank God.

    .
    I submit that anyone who thinks that a U.S. Senate candidate who is more liberal (progressive) than Amy McGrath has better than a snowball's chance in hell of winning in Kentucky simply does not understand the commonwealth at all.

    My own political views run closer to those of Bernie Sanders and AOC that to those of Amy McGrath. Having said that, I think Sanders and AOC are being unrealistic and foolish with regard to the Kentucky senatorial contest.

    The race is only polling as being close because Mitch McConnell has become widely unpopular among Kentuckians. I despise Mitch but would not be surprised if he wins in a close election. A less unpopular Republican candidate would win in a landslide.
    Last edited by Tom Montgomery; 06-10-2020 at 05:44 PM.
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    Default Re: Mitch McConnell is increasingly vulnerable in Kentucky, thank God.

    Sorry Tom - but I'm bailing on this. I promised myself that I wouldn't rise to the sanctity of the DNC bullspit, but I did anyway. So - rather than further alienate people I think of as kindred spirits in many ways, I'll just shut up.

    Off to send some more $ to DitchMitch.
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  26. #61
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    Default Re: Mitch McConnell is increasingly vulnerable in Kentucky, thank God.

    I really DON'T think it has anything to do with the 'sanctity of the DNC'. See my #64...
    David G
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  27. #62
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    Default Re: Mitch McConnell is increasingly vulnerable in Kentucky, thank God.

    Amy McGrath just took the nomination. I think she's the best candidate for the seat. Tom, I looked for your prior thread on this primary but this is a good place to mention and discuss this.
    One of the most enduring qualities of an old wooden boat is the smell it imparts to your clothing.

  28. #63
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    Default Re: Mitch McConnell is increasingly vulnerable in Kentucky, thank God.

    Yep - all the "Bernie will destroy the country" BS was just that. Voters chose Amy. I hope she whups Mitch.
    "If it ain't broke, you're not trying." - Red Green

  29. #64
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    Default Re: Mitch McConnell is increasingly vulnerable in Kentucky, thank God.

    Quote Originally Posted by Garret View Post
    Yep - all the "Bernie will destroy the country" BS was just that. Voters chose Amy. I hope she whups Mitch.
    More hyperbole. Most of us who had concerns didn't say anything like that --

    http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...60#post6219660
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    Default Re: Mitch McConnell is increasingly vulnerable in Kentucky, thank God.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lew Barrett View Post
    Amy McGrath just took the nomination. I think she's the best candidate for the seat. Tom, I looked for your prior thread on this primary but this is a good place to mention and discuss this.
    I think the primary win actually strengthens McGrath's position.
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    Default Re: Mitch McConnell is increasingly vulnerable in Kentucky, thank God.

    Quote Originally Posted by oznabrag View Post
    I think the primary win actually strengthens McGrath's position.
    Careful--now you're making the same pro-primary case I made on this thread weeks ago, and got attacked for.

    Tom
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  32. #67
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    Default Re: Mitch McConnell is increasingly vulnerable in Kentucky, thank God.

    Quote Originally Posted by twodot View Post
    How so? Please elaborate.
    More voters got interested.

    She has a win under her belt.

    It forced her to sharpen her wits and her message.

    Maybe.
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  33. #68
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    Default Re: Mitch McConnell is increasingly vulnerable in Kentucky, thank God.

    Quote Originally Posted by oznabrag View Post
    More voters got interested.

    She has a win under her belt.

    It forced her to sharpen her wits and her message.

    Maybe.
    Maybe, indeed. I'd say that all ranges from 'arguable' to 'feeble'. You been taking logic lessons from sleek?
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    Default Re: Mitch McConnell is increasingly vulnerable in Kentucky, thank God.

    Quote Originally Posted by David G View Post
    Maybe, indeed. I'd say that all ranges from 'arguable' to 'feeble'. You been taking logic lessons from sleek?
    Try to look on the bright side, Gloomy Gus.

    Oh, and lay offa my man Sleek.

    That dude has demonstrated that he can actually learn stuff.

    You could take a page from his book.
    Rattling the teacups.

  35. #70
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    Default Re: Mitch McConnell is increasingly vulnerable in Kentucky, thank God.

    Quote Originally Posted by oznabrag View Post
    Try to look on the bright side, Gloomy Gus.

    Oh, and lay offa my man Sleek.

    That dude has demonstrated that he can actually learn stuff.

    You could take a page from his book.
    We all could. He's really looking hard at some stuff he's "known" all his life & being totally upfront about it. My hat's off to him & I'd be proud to buy him a beer or 3.
    "If it ain't broke, you're not trying." - Red Green

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