Page 2 of 3 FirstFirst 123 LastLast
Results 36 to 70 of 76

Thread: Venus Ketch 34 performance

  1. #36
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    South Puget Sound/summer Eastern carib./winter
    Posts
    21,283

    Default Re: Venus Ketch 34 performance

    That make you another hard case nutjob John.

  2. #37
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Northern Europe
    Posts
    12,913

    Default Re: Venus Ketch 34 performance

    Quote Originally Posted by John B View Post
    3 days after we got in a guy died when his Bavaria broke up or foundered and put them all in the water 20 miles from safety.
    Shame they weren't in something well found, like a Venus ketch or some other well constructed boat built for purpose rather than to price.
    Thats tragic. I guess when you have mass production companies like Beneteau , Jenneau and Bavaria all trying to compete in the same market sector, something has to give......though it should never be in the hull and deck, but then most spend 90% of their lives in a marina. I heard Beneteau had to rethink their hull laminations after their first big charter order in the West Indies started to show issues, mostly with interior bonding, leading to moving bulkheads and then hull flexing and eventual fractures......when you hear that, it does not inspire confidence to have long beats to weather, even if throttled back.

  3. #38
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Location
    Norwalk CT
    Posts
    2,514

    Default Re: Venus Ketch 34 performance

    I crewed on a Beneteau years ago here in CT and the gelcoat used to get soft in the sun....cant imagine what they must be like down in that hot tropical sun?

  4. #39
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Location
    Port Townsend WA
    Posts
    14,445

    Default Re: Venus Ketch 34 performance

    Well, I for one, do not like dealing with a product that goes soft in the sun when a hull is made of it! I find this to be an interesting discussion. I do like Bill Atkins design work and certainly he did a heck of a lot of fine boat designs!
    I especially like his "Ingrid" as she is a good sea wife and is there to serve you well when things get rough like being driven off shore by a "Tijaunapacker". She has no transom to get sandblasted a hundred miles off shore in the Gulf.
    Jay

  5. #40
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Location
    BC Coast
    Posts
    4,201

    Default Re: Venus Ketch 34 performance

    About 30 years ago a friend of mine set offshore in a FG boat. I do not remember what design, about 38 feet. He go into a gale about a day outside of Cape Flatery, and found he was unable to shut some of his doors, several inside which were a pain, but also the main companion way into the cabin as the boat flexed in the wind and sea.
    wisly he turned around and came home. He sold the FG boat and bought a Bill Garden cutter.

  6. #41
    Join Date
    Jun 2013
    Posts
    3,402

    Default Re: Venus Ketch 34 performance

    I did suspect the "Bermuda challenge" was a poorly hidden attempt to throw scorn at the boats other people love.

    It's utterly wrong to claim that raceboats all need attention after finishing races. For example, in the last major race I did, the top classic boat was a Finnisterre type built by McGruer, winner of cruising awards, Cape Horn veteran, and four times British offshore racing Yacht of the Year. She met the worst seas in some 80,000 miles and sprung splines. The majority of the plastic boats did not suffer such damage. Just like the recent claim that bermudan rigs fail if one component breaks, it's a claim that is proven by my own experience to be utterly false and denigrating other people's boats.

    Incidentally, in the notorious Sydney to Hobart of 1998, double enders and planked long keelers were the worst two types as far as losses-per-entry went. The 1960s "long fin keelers" like S&S 34s had the worst rate of rolling to 180 degrees.

    People can singlehand big boats, and people can leave their boats stocked up no matter what type they are. We classic boat owners complain when our boats are insulted, why should we abuse the boats of others?

    By the way, while I wouldn't own many Beneteaus, the last Suhaili type to enter a major race had to be rescued in the southern ocean - and one of the boats that went to its help was a Beneteau Oceanis! The recent "Golden Globe" round the world race for classic boats seems to have had a far worse record of failures than any race with modern boats.

  7. #42
    Join Date
    Sep 2015
    Location
    Whangarei New Zealand
    Posts
    947

    Default Re: Venus Ketch 34 performance

    Question is whether it's about the depth of passion and appreciation of the craft, and the skills knowledge and dedication that goes into them, or whether it's just about the money and expression of status.

  8. #43
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    South Puget Sound/summer Eastern carib./winter
    Posts
    21,283

    Default Re: Venus Ketch 34 performance

    easy Chris,
    these are just my opinions,tongue in cheek many of them.I denigrate other boats ALL THE TIME !
    when you tell me that heavy dble enders did poorly in a race, I believe you. They are not race boats.Their best point of sail is less sail, not more.

  9. #44
    Join Date
    Jun 2013
    Posts
    3,402

    Default Re: Venus Ketch 34 performance

    Sure, and just as you are allowed to state your opinions, I can state mine.

  10. #45
    Join Date
    Jun 2013
    Posts
    3,402

    Default Re: Venus Ketch 34 performance

    Quote Originally Posted by Lugalong View Post
    Question is whether it's about the depth of passion and appreciation of the craft, and the skills knowledge and dedication that goes into them, or whether it's just about the money and expression of status.
    Making negative remarks about another person's boat can be just as much an expression of status as buying a shiny Bavaria.

    I wouldn't own a Bavaria or Beneteau, but there are certainly people who have lots of skills, knowledge, dedication etc who own such craft. Some of them use their skills in far more important areas than boat maintenance, and therefore want simple turn-key cruising. Surely that's just as good as spending time maintaining or building a wooden boat?

  11. #46
    Join Date
    Nov 2017
    Location
    Gulf Islands B.C.
    Posts
    3,706

    Default Re: Venus Ketch 34 performance

    Quote Originally Posted by Chris249 View Post
    Making negative remarks about another person's boat can be just as much an expression of status as buying a shiny Bavaria.

    I wouldn't own a Bavaria or Beneteau, but there are certainly people who have lots of skills, knowledge, dedication etc who own such craft. Some of them use their skills in far more important areas than boat maintenance, and therefore want simple turn-key cruising. Surely that's just as good as spending time maintaining or building a wooden boat?
    Sure. But if you are on a classic car forum where enthusiasts prefer vintage cars (whatever the maintenance issues) over new toyotas (no matter how much more practical), you'd expect much the same bias in preference.

  12. #47
    Join Date
    May 2012
    Location
    UK. Cornwall, Suffolk.
    Posts
    8,981

    Default Re: Venus Ketch 34 performance

    So, does anyone know where to find a windward sailing chart for a Venus 34?

  13. #48
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Northern Europe
    Posts
    12,913

    Default Re: Venus Ketch 34 performance

    Quote Originally Posted by lupussonic View Post
    So, does anyone know where to find a windward sailing chart for a Venus 34?
    LOL, is that one of those wind VMG velocity charts? I expect you can find one or a CA40, which is a plastic Colin Archer copy, and they had alloy and stainless rigging. Find one of those, and perhaps deduct 15%, might be in the ball-park.....

    My triple keel shallow draft Waterwith was probably the worst boat i owned for upwind work, and although she had reasonable pointing, she made a lot of leeway, generally you figure all that into your passage making and escape routes, but i would happily voyage most places in one.

  14. #49
    Join Date
    Sep 2015
    Location
    Whangarei New Zealand
    Posts
    947

    Default Re: Venus Ketch 34 performance

    Quote Originally Posted by Chris249 View Post
    Making negative remarks about another person's boat can be just as much an expression of status as buying a shiny Bavaria.

    I wouldn't own a Bavaria or Beneteau, but there are certainly people who have lots of skills, knowledge, dedication etc who own such craft. Some of them use their skills in far more important areas than boat maintenance, and therefore want simple turn-key cruising. Surely that's just as good as spending time maintaining or building a wooden boat?
    No kidding here's someone who figures that work in maintenance of a wooden boat is less important than exercising skills, knowledge and dedication on occupations (perhaps) like real estate or the insurance industry, and who thinks that contributing such an opinion might be worth anything to wooden boat devotees.

  15. #50
    Join Date
    May 2012
    Location
    UK. Cornwall, Suffolk.
    Posts
    8,981

    Default Re: Venus Ketch 34 performance

    Give it a rest Lugalong.

  16. #51
    Join Date
    Sep 2015
    Location
    Whangarei New Zealand
    Posts
    947

    Default Re: Venus Ketch 34 performance

    Quote Originally Posted by lupussonic View Post
    Give it a rest Lugalong.
    Sure, thats easy to do, every day when heading off to work with wood, i pass row upon row of shiny plastic craft with their alloy spars and take no notice of them

  17. #52
    Join Date
    Jun 2013
    Posts
    3,402

    Default Re: Venus Ketch 34 performance

    Quote Originally Posted by Lugalong View Post
    No kidding here's someone who figures that work in maintenance of a wooden boat is less important than exercising skills, knowledge and dedication on occupations (perhaps) like real estate or the insurance industry, and who thinks that contributing such an opinion might be worth anything to wooden boat devotees.
    Not all 'glass boat owners work in real estate or insurance, y'know. Those I know best work in medical research, consumer protection or in preserving the rights of extremely disadvantaged indigenous people. Another had a couple of big 'glass boats that would have symbolised status - and they were maintained by a former Formula One mechanic. The work the mechanic did on those boats was a fine example of skills, knowledge and dedication. The owner got someone else to do the work because he was a surgeon, and he spent many holidays overseas as a volunteer, doing free operations using his skills, knowledge and dedication that changed the lives of disadvantaged people. He didn't have time to maintain wooden boats himself because he was doing more important things. Why is someone who does that not worthy of at least as much respect as someone who sands or glues some wood?

    Another friend is looking to buy a Beneteau or something similar, because while he is an experienced sailor he will not be in a position to maintain a moored yacht much. He's an accountant. In his spare time he volunteers for the bush fire brigade, does the unpaid work many professionals do for local community organisations, repairs the club's dinghies, welds new cradles for the club dinghies, etc. In his case, as in many others, owning a shiny production boat is a logical decision that allows him to use his skills, dedication and knowledge more effectively in many areas. So why denigrate people like that or the boats that give them joy?

    By the way, if one makes negative remarks about wooden boats on many forums where the accent is on 'glass boats, people who own wooden AND glass boats will defend the classics. Preferring one type does not mean we have to sling **** at other types.
    Last edited by Chris249; 06-18-2020 at 07:50 PM.

  18. #53
    Join Date
    Aug 2000
    Location
    Bay of Islands,N.Z.
    Posts
    30,221

    Default Re: Venus Ketch 34 performance

    There's plenty of good boats of other materials, and theres production boats amongst them.
    But there's also a lot designed to be used in protected waters and yet they go to sea. Their bulkheads aren't tabbed in ,they're sikaflexed in, their decks are the same... popped on with sika like a lid on a plastic ice cream container with no mechanical backup. They're light coastal boats.
    Many brands with stellar reputations change hands or policy and quality is mitigated for weight or cost, look at the Oyster debacle a couple of years ago for example.
    How you navigate that minefield and find the brand and how good they were at the time period you're looking at is the trick. There's big brands I've developed a new respect for in a particular period, some I wouldn't touch.

  19. #54
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    East Quogue,NY
    Posts
    24,900

    Default Venus Ketch 34 performance

    Quote Originally Posted by John B View Post
    There's plenty of good boats of other materials, and theres production boats amongst them.
    But there's also a lot designed to be used in protected waters and yet they go to sea. Their bulkheads aren't tabbed in ,they're sikaflexed in, their decks are the same... popped on with sika like a lid on a plastic ice cream container with no mechanical backup. They're light coastal boats.
    Many brands with stellar reputations change hands or policy and quality is mitigated for weight or cost, look at the Oyster debacle a couple of years ago for example.
    How you navigate that minefield and find the brand and how good they were at the time period you're looking at is the trick. There's big brands I've developed a new respect for in a particular period, some I wouldn't touch.


    The answer is, IMO, to use the brand knowledge as a coarse filter to help narrow the search. Then, inspect-- or pay someone to inspect-- the individual boat before committing.

    Every used boat is an individual, as far as I am concerned, regardless of the reputation of its maker.

    Kevin


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
    There are two kinds of boaters: those who have run aground, and those who lie about it.

  20. #55
    Join Date
    Sep 2015
    Location
    Whangarei New Zealand
    Posts
    947

    Default Re: Venus Ketch 34 performance

    Quote Originally Posted by John B View Post
    There's plenty of good boats of other materials, and theres production boats amongst them.
    But there's also a lot designed to be used in protected waters and yet they go to sea. Their bulkheads aren't tabbed in ,they're sikaflexed in, their decks are the same... popped on with sika like a lid on a plastic ice cream container with no mechanical backup. They're light coastal boats.
    Many brands with stellar reputations change hands or policy and quality is mitigated for weight or cost, look at the Oyster debacle a couple of years ago for example.
    How you navigate that minefield and find the brand and how good they were at the time period you're looking at is the trick. There's big brands I've developed a new respect for in a particular period, some I wouldn't touch.
    Where pop-outs are concerned, theres always a search to find quicker, easier or more cost effective ways of 'crapping' things out, so for as long as these products look shiny or glitzy there will be people who earn heaps of money doing "more important things" that are ready to splash out on these products. They being covered by insurance, means there is always incentive to feed the cycle of product experimentation and the body of serfs to employ in the process. Thankfully i can still get out on the water by relying to a large extent on wooden craft and stay detached from that rat race.
    Last edited by Lugalong; 06-19-2020 at 08:19 AM.

  21. #56
    Join Date
    Aug 2017
    Location
    Melb, Vic, Aus
    Posts
    716

    Default Re: Venus Ketch 34 performance

    Quote Originally Posted by Chris249 View Post
    Not all 'glass boat owners work in real estate or insurance, y'know. Those I know best work in medical research, consumer protection or in preserving the rights of extremely disadvantaged indigenous people. Another had a couple of big 'glass boats that would have symbolised status - and they were maintained by a former Formula One mechanic. The work the mechanic did on those boats was a fine example of skills, knowledge and dedication. The owner got someone else to do the work because he was a surgeon, and he spent many holidays overseas as a volunteer, doing free operations using his skills, knowledge and dedication that changed the lives of disadvantaged people. He didn't have time to maintain wooden boats himself because he was doing more important things. Why is someone who does that not worthy of at least as much respect as someone who sands or glues some wood?

    Another friend is looking to buy a Beneteau or something similar, because while he is an experienced sailor he will not be in a position to maintain a moored yacht much. He's an accountant. In his spare time he volunteers for the bush fire brigade, does the unpaid work many professionals do for local community organisations, repairs the club's dinghies, welds new cradles for the club dinghies, etc. In his case, as in many others, owning a shiny production boat is a logical decision that allows him to use his skills, dedication and knowledge more effectively in many areas. So why denigrate people like that or the boats that give them joy?

    By the way, if one makes negative remarks about wooden boats on many forums where the accent is on 'glass boats, people who own wooden AND glass boats will defend the classics. Preferring one type does not mean we have to sling **** at other types.
    I was really looking forward to where this thread could go. Being in the middle of rigging a gaff ketch myself. And then you go and get your knickers in a knot cause some rum soaked pirate stepped on one of your pidgins.

    Sorry, but I really don’t care about the chief medical officer of the local Boy Scout groups plastic fantastic. The one that he sails with such grace, experience, knowledge, fortitude and fun. Ripping down the coast and racing ‘round the bouy’s. Saving poor sods of there broken dreams at the bottom of the southern ocean.
    May I suggest that you start a new thread when this impulse next arises? instead of train wrecking one such as this?
    You could call it “turn keys matter”.
    I feel for the guy who started this thread.

  22. #57
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Northern Europe
    Posts
    12,913

    Default Re: Venus Ketch 34 performance

    Quote Originally Posted by lupussonic View Post
    So, does anyone know where to find a windward sailing chart for a Venus 34?
    Now that i remember the term, "polars", are a bit like car manufacturers mpg figures, being that a boat with brand new
    sails and a clean bottom and possibly in flat water can obtain a certain speed on certain headings.

    A friend who noticed a 1 knot lack in speed put that down to a dirty bottom, but it was his 18 month old mainsail, as he found out when he replaced it. So polars are at best a theoretical maximum, and real world outcomes of used sails, fould bottom and sea conditions all come into play.

    I know the current plastic motor sailor will most likely make as much leeway if not more than my old Waterwith, which is why i was planning a slight keel and rudder modification. It will never point like a J boat, but i take access to 3ft of water being a compromise i can live with.

  23. #58
    Join Date
    Jun 2013
    Posts
    3,402

    Default Re: Venus Ketch 34 performance

    Quote Originally Posted by Geftb View Post
    I was really looking forward to where this thread could go. Being in the middle of rigging a gaff ketch myself. And then you go and get your knickers in a knot cause some rum soaked pirate stepped on one of your pidgins.

    Sorry, but I really don’t care about the chief medical officer of the local Boy Scout groups plastic fantastic. The one that he sails with such grace, experience, knowledge, fortitude and fun. Ripping down the coast and racing ‘round the bouy’s. Saving poor sods of there broken dreams at the bottom of the southern ocean.
    May I suggest that you start a new thread when this impulse next arises? instead of train wrecking one such as this?
    You could call it “turn keys matter”.
    I feel for the guy who started this thread.
    You could just scroll past pretty damn easily instead of throwing around more sneers, including abusing someone who gives up their holidays to change the lives of disadvantaged people.

    Secondly, the thread had already got onto other boats and the general subject of sailing to windward before someone made a claim that is factually untrue. What's wrong with addressing such things in a forum?
    Last edited by Chris249; 06-21-2020 at 07:12 AM.

  24. #59
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    South Puget Sound/summer Eastern carib./winter
    Posts
    21,283

    Default Re: Venus Ketch 34 performance


  25. #60
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    South Puget Sound/summer Eastern carib./winter
    Posts
    21,283

    Default Re: Venus Ketch 34 performance

    Above is a 15/20 year old photo of Pauls short lived 38'er.
    Only one was built, she is lighter than my 34.
    She prolly went up wind better.

  26. #61
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Northern Europe
    Posts
    12,913

    Default Re: Venus Ketch 34 performance

    Nice photo. Not much sag in those gaffs either....

  27. #62
    Join Date
    Sep 2015
    Location
    Whangarei New Zealand
    Posts
    947

    Default Re: Venus Ketch 34 performance

    Quote Originally Posted by wizbang 13 View Post
    Really beautifull, but looks as though there's a demand for plenty of work in maintenance to keep things that way, whereas a slick turnkey job eliminates that sort of 'unimportant' work, and of course a taller sloop rig would get you to Hobart quicker... never mind that the taller pointy rig is going to load up mast compression and rig strain to the point that a hull of some material other than wood becomes important, oh yes, along with some other "more important" occupation to pay for it.

  28. #63
    Join Date
    Aug 2000
    Location
    Bay of Islands,N.Z.
    Posts
    30,221

    Default Re: Venus Ketch 34 performance

    I'm happy to admire any fit for purpose boat. Bruce's Venus is one of those.
    As someone who took a 'pointy' rig out of a 1907 boat and fitted a racy gaff rig, I can tell anyone who is interested that it pointed as well and performed better when re- rigged gaff. But that's a different type of boat ,Inshore cruiser racer.
    My 1975 pointy rig ketch does a nice job of going coastal and offshore places safely for 45 years, so I think it has some value too. In fact I bet my life on it.

  29. #64
    Join Date
    Sep 2015
    Location
    Whangarei New Zealand
    Posts
    947

    Default Re: Venus Ketch 34 performance

    Quote Originally Posted by John B View Post
    I'm happy to admire any fit for purpose boat. Bruce's Venus is one of those.
    As someone who took a 'pointy' rig out of a 1907 boat and fitted a racy gaff rig, I can tell anyone who is interested that it pointed as well and performed better when re- rigged gaff. But that's a different type of boat ,Inshore cruiser racer.
    My 1975 pointy rig ketch does a nice job of going coastal and offshore places safely for 45 years, so I think it has some value too. In fact I bet my life on it.
    Last point about your Ketch brings up a query I have re the staying arrangement, specifically in terms of back-staying from the mainmast to mizzen. My only experience with a ketch rig was sailing on one from the Indian Ocean around the bottom of Africa into the Atlantic and that boat had a well proven rig with masthead support of the mainmast to mizzen, with the mizzen being a full roach fully battened Bermudan/'pointy' number. Masts were deck stepped, so not comparable to the gaff rig in this discussion, and how relevant do you think performance and reliability depends on mast support from either keel stepping or between mat staying?

  30. #65
    Join Date
    May 2012
    Location
    UK. Cornwall, Suffolk.
    Posts
    8,981

    Default Re: Venus Ketch 34 performance

    For me a cruising boat should have redundancy as a feature, indeed a priority, so each mast would have it's own independent stays given the choice in my opinion. If one chose to backstay the main to the mizzen, it would depend entirely on how well the mizzen was held up I suppose.

    Deck stepped masts are only made thus for convenience, not for reliability. The masts should be supported via a post to the keel anyway, so one could consider a deck stepped mast to be just a hinge in the direction of load. Tabernacles and herky chainplates and deck beams come at somewhat of a weight penalty.

  31. #66
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    Southern Maine
    Posts
    21,965

    Default Re: Venus Ketch 34 performance

    Quote Originally Posted by lupussonic View Post

    Deck stepped masts are only made thus for convenience, not for reliability..
    That's a pretty broad statement. The (formerly) Volvo boats are deck stepped. I've sailed a lot of ketches and given my dream boat, I'd go for independent staying, I'd have a deck stepped main and a buried mizzen. Part of my email address for more than 20 years is "triatic" which is common usage for the stay between the mizzen and the main, but would be better called "spring stay" or "freshwater stay".

    John B's lovely ketch, Riada, which is pretty high in my dream boat index has independent stayed masts

  32. #67
    Join Date
    Aug 2000
    Location
    Bay of Islands,N.Z.
    Posts
    30,221

    Default Re: Venus Ketch 34 performance

    Quote Originally Posted by lupussonic View Post
    For me a cruising boat should have redundancy as a feature, indeed a priority, so each mast would have it's own independent stays given the choice in my opinion. If one chose to backstay the main to the mizzen, it would depend entirely on how well the mizzen was held up I suppose.

    Deck stepped masts are only made thus for convenience, not for reliability. The masts should be supported via a post to the keel anyway, so one could consider a deck stepped mast to be just a hinge in the direction of load. Tabernacles and herky chainplates and deck beams come at somewhat of a weight penalty.
    Ours are indepently rigged as Gareth says, ( thats nice of you Gareth)but I like keel stepped rigs ,which our main is. The mizzen is deck stepped , or stepped to the cockpit sole more correctly, but functionally the same. In a way it means I take more care with shroud and forestay tension, not that I'm careless about the main. No tabernacle.
    But it does contribute to my dislike of the jib and mizzen go to for heavy weather, I don't do that because I don't see that pushing x ton around in a breeze using the lighter scantlings mast rather than the tree trunk esq scantlings of the main is sensible. I'll do it gunk holing in unstressed weather but not as a heavy weather option.

  33. #68
    Join Date
    May 2012
    Location
    UK. Cornwall, Suffolk.
    Posts
    8,981

    Default Re: Venus Ketch 34 performance

    Quote Originally Posted by Hwyl View Post
    That's a pretty broad statement.
    My apologies, it is only true 99.9% of the time, and only for the last 200 years, not including the last 10.

  34. #69
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Northern Europe
    Posts
    12,913

    Default Re: Venus Ketch 34 performance

    The Folboat Jester had lost 3 masts and those were keel stepped, if unstayed junk rig. Plenty Folkboats have snapped masts around here and they are keel stepped too. I have no problem with tabernacle masts if done correctly, and prefer that over deck-stepped......at least the former can stand on its own with a pin inserted to rig, and generally does not need a crane. Not that im averse to keel stepped masts, i just think they are as prone to breakage as any other.

  35. #70
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    Gold Coast Australia
    Posts
    3,424

    Default Re: Venus Ketch 34 performance

    Without a doubt keel stepped masts provide a higher degree of structural integrity, and they may also be easier to jury rig the stump which frequently remains . Then again the mast step relies on substantially engineered timbers in order to keep the vessel from springing planks in those stress areas.

    Fundamentally I don’t have a problem with deck stepped masts in cruising boats providing compression posts and adequate deck frames are installed.
    They are however more vulnerable when faced with a serious knock down which can result in the loss of the rig and parts of the deck.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •