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Thread: Fiberglass Sheathing a 1962 Carvel Hull

  1. #71

    Default Re: Fiberglass Sheathing a 1962 Carvel Hull

    Quote Originally Posted by gypsie View Post
    Fascinating data by the way.
    i would have sworn Jarrah would have been as good as Turpentine.
    .
    Yer, thats pretty interesting.
    I am going to call BULL DUST on that.
    .
    I'd say they used a piece of W.A. Karri by mistake.
    Western Australian Karri timber is pretty much impossible to tell apart from Jarrah. Generally the only way is to burn a piece. Jarrah doesn't leave any ash.
    White ants and ship worms love W.A. Karri. I had some Karri keel slippers on my second boat. They lasted 12 months in the tropics. The Jarrah I had on the first boat was still in good nick after 5 years.
    The W.A. lugger fleet was mostly Jarrah planked with Karri ribs.

    PS
    Don't mistake W.A. Kauri for N.Z kauri. Ones a eucalypt, the othe a pine..
    Also Jarrah can vary in colour from the reddy jarah colour through to light browns and even birds eye, from a previous life making fine furniture
    Last edited by Balanda; 06-21-2020 at 02:19 AM.

  2. #72
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    Default Re: Fiberglass Sheathing a 1962 Carvel Hull

    Hey Gypsie I can’t find Bougereise or Prolerteriot on my navigometer. What state are you in?

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    Default Re: Fiberglass Sheathing a 1962 Carvel Hull

    Quote Originally Posted by Larks View Post
    Seriously Gypsie - I would be taking Rick up on his offer of chasing up the tapered blade and using tapered battens with something like the Fixtech Fixit FMP 200 polyurethane glue. I had success with untapped battens but I had them going all the way through the thickness of the hull, if I was in your position I’d be doing the 40 to 50% fill with tapered battens
    yes, absolutely, i'm going that way.

    Rick, what Larks says

    i'm thinking 20mm of the 28mm plank. Some of the fairing looks like it brough the planks back to about an inch in places around tight turns at the transom. But no where seems thinner than that.

    20mm deep, 2mm or 3mm inside, 4mm outside. 20mm spindle. The saw i'm looking at achieves a 63mm cut with a 185mm blade, so blade needs to be at least 105mm diameter.

    is there such a thing as a tapered router to do the plank ends against the rabbet?
    It's all fun and games until Darth Vader comes.

  4. #74
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    Default Re: Fiberglass Sheathing a 1962 Carvel Hull

    Quote Originally Posted by Andrew Donald View Post
    Hey Gypsie I can’t find Bougereise or Prolerteriot on my navigometer. What state are you in?
    NSW mate, north of Wollongong, tucked into the Royal National Park. Plenty of proletariat round here, not much bourgeoisie....
    It's all fun and games until Darth Vader comes.

  5. #75
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    Default Re: Fiberglass Sheathing a 1962 Carvel Hull

    Quote Originally Posted by gypsie View Post
    yes, absolutely, i'm going that way.

    Rick, what Larks says

    i'm thinking 20mm of the 28mm plank. Some of the fairing looks like it brough the planks back to about an inch in places around tight turns at the transom. But no where seems thinner than that.

    20mm deep, 2mm or 3mm inside, 4mm outside. 20mm spindle. The saw i'm looking at achieves a 63mm cut with a 185mm blade, so blade needs to be at least 105mm diameter.

    is there such a thing as a tapered router to do the plank ends against the rabbet?
    Okay, have obligations tomorrow but I'm a free agent after that. I'd like to talk to them face to face about this so I'll go over to Cardiff (not too far from here) later in the week and see what I can find out re the saw blade and a router bit. You could go online and search Carbitool and probably CMT for router bits. Let's know if you find a suitable bit because it would make sense to then match that taper with the saw.
    Rick

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  6. #76
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    Default Re: Fiberglass Sheathing a 1962 Carvel Hull

    Quote Originally Posted by gypsie View Post
    yes, absolutely, i'm going that way.

    Rick, what Larks says

    i'm thinking 20mm of the 28mm plank. Some of the fairing looks like it brough the planks back to about an inch in places around tight turns at the transom. But no where seems thinner than that.

    20mm deep, 2mm or 3mm inside, 4mm outside. 20mm spindle. The saw i'm looking at achieves a 63mm cut with a 185mm blade, so blade needs to be at least 105mm diameter.

    is there such a thing as a tapered router to do the plank ends against the rabbet?


    https://www.carbatec.com.au/cmt-3d-taper-ball-nose-1
    Larks

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  7. #77
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    Default Re: Fiberglass Sheathing a 1962 Carvel Hull

    I have seen many boats sheathed, rarely if ever was it sucessfull. Its all very well talking about drying it all out, splining seams & what goop to use in the joints, but there is an important thing thats missing here.
    1)How do you stop the centreline structure moving? Stem, Keel, deadwood, sternpost etc? Its big timber & will take a long time to dry out to the level where epoxy is ok to use. It will shrink & if it ever gets wet ever again it will swell right up again!
    2) If the boat has ever had an inboard engine the bilge & area under the engine will be soaked in oily bilge water, diesel fuel etc. That means keel deadwood the lot. There is no way on gods earth to degrease this which means you will never get epoxy to stick to anywhere like this.
    I tried degreasing thin 1/8" planking on my old Saunders launch in the bilge. Nothing worked, in the end i had no choice but to take all the oil contaminated wood out.

  8. #78
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    Default Re: Fiberglass Sheathing a 1962 Carvel Hull

    That looks pretty damn close! Let's see what the deal with the splining blade is but you could always form a straight groove with a batten and saw and then taper it with a trimmer router with this bit. Make a base plate with a pin forward of and behind the bit. Another thought.
    Rick

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  9. #79
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    Default Re: Fiberglass Sheathing a 1962 Carvel Hull

    Quote Originally Posted by RFNK View Post
    That looks pretty damn close! Let's see what the deal with the splining blade is but you could always form a straight groove with a batten and saw and then taper it with a trimmer router with this bit. Make a base plate with a pin forward of and behind the bit. Another thought.
    yes - those CNC bits are tough as.
    Must question the guys in our workshop here - they have a CNC, they may have ideas too.

    Just thinking, i understand the argument for and against parallel slot with tapered spline. I get the case for tapered slot and tapered spline. What about parallel slot and parallel spline (as per Larks process..?). Maybe the taper is an unnecessary complication?
    It's all fun and games until Darth Vader comes.

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    Default Re: Fiberglass Sheathing a 1962 Carvel Hull

    It’s going to be damn hard but possible to get fit tight enough for polyurethane with a tapered spline and taped slot and just about impossible with a straight spline and slot. Same for epoxy. There’s no way to avoid scraping the glue off as you drive the spline in.

    When you cut your splines all you have to do is is turn the board over after every cut keeping the fresh cut edge against the fence. It will take no longer than straight splines and everyone should be identical.

  11. #81
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    Default Re: Fiberglass Sheathing a 1962 Carvel Hull

    Quote Originally Posted by Jfitzger View Post
    It’s going to be damn hard but possible to get fit tight enough for polyurethane with a tapered spline and taped slot and just about impossible with a straight spline and slot. Same for epoxy. There’s no way to avoid scraping the glue off as you drive the spline in.

    When you cut your splines all you have to do is is turn the board over after every cut keeping the fresh cut edge against the fence. It will take no longer than straight splines and everyone should be identical.
    Not so hard at all really - the proof is in the pudding:

    http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...rebuild/page22


    Larks

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  12. #82
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    Default Re: Fiberglass Sheathing a 1962 Carvel Hull

    I have no doubt that it can be done. Tight bond recommends clamping pressure of 100-150 psi for softwoods and up to 250 for hard. It just seems like a lot of fussiness maintaining this standard of fit over every seam over an entire hull and would be impossible with straight splines. Half my business is custom furniture so I have high tolerance for fussy work.

    I haven’t looked up other brands in a while so perhaps I’m not up to date on the latest and greatest. I could be persuaded but I’d like to see actual test data. I try to rely on things like this,

    https://www.duckworksmagazine.com/08...ord/index5.htm

  13. #83
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    Default Re: Fiberglass Sheathing a 1962 Carvel Hull

    Quote Originally Posted by gypsie View Post
    yes - those CNC bits are tough as.
    Must question the guys in our workshop here - they have a CNC, they may have ideas too.

    Just thinking, i understand the argument for and against parallel slot with tapered spline. I get the case for tapered slot and tapered spline. What about parallel slot and parallel spline (as per Larks process..?). Maybe the taper is an unnecessary complication?
    Well, Greg (Larks) did it and you can see from his example that it went well. I do think that with long seams through at least some variable material, the tapered slot and spline option will provide better assurance of a tight fit. It's the traditional way of doing it - splined hulls were becoming common until GRP captured the market. But glues are better now, Greg's provided proof that it can be done. Why not see what the splining blade costs? If it's really dear, then the straight slot might be a more sensible way to go. If not, then I think I'd prefer the taper for the jam fit, and, as above, cutting the splines is dead easy. I'm guessing the blade will be about $300 but I don't really know.
    Rick

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    Default Re: Fiberglass Sheathing a 1962 Carvel Hull

    Quote Originally Posted by RFNK View Post
    Why not see what the splining blade costs? If it's really dear, then the straight slot might be a more sensible way to go. If not, then I think I'd prefer the taper for the jam fit, and, as above, cutting the splines is dead easy. I'm guessing the blade will be about $300 but I don't really know.
    Agreed.
    It wasn't cost i was considering as much as simplicity.
    It's all fun and games until Darth Vader comes.

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    Default Re: Fiberglass Sheathing a 1962 Carvel Hull

    I asked Saw City for a quote on Wednesday but they haven't let me know yet. I'll call them on Monday.
    Rick

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  16. #86
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    Default Re: Fiberglass Sheathing a 1962 Carvel Hull

    Do yourself and the boat a big favor and abandon your plan to smear plastic all over the boat. This is not going to end well.

  17. #87

    Default Re: Fiberglass Sheathing a 1962 Carvel Hull

    Quote Originally Posted by pcford View Post
    This is not going to end well.
    At this point may I remind the OP that ancient Egytians used to split granite using woods ability to swell when wet.

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    Default Re: Fiberglass Sheathing a 1962 Carvel Hull

    Quote Originally Posted by Balanda View Post
    At this point may I remind the OP that ancient Egytians used to split granite using woods ability to swell when wet.
    just as well then that the boat isn’t built out of granite......
    Larks

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    “Give it a try”, whispered the heart.

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  19. #89
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    Default Re: Fiberglass Sheathing a 1962 Carvel Hull

    Boatbuilders have been building wooden boats and sheathing them successfully for over 50 years. Amazing how that escapes the notice of some. There are none so blind as those who will not see.
    Rick

    Lean and nosey like a ferret

  20. #90
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    Default Re: Fiberglass Sheathing a 1962 Carvel Hull

    All wooden boas rot over time. The main difference seems to be that the sheathed ones do it quicker and are harder to repair once rotten.

    You hardly ever see a structurally sound keel in a sheathed boat of some age. Not around theese parts.
    Amateur living on the western coast of Finland

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    Default Re: Fiberglass Sheathing a 1962 Carvel Hull

    Quote Originally Posted by heimlaga View Post
    All wooden boas rot over time. The main difference seems to be that the sheathed ones do it quicker and are harder to repair once rotten.

    You hardly ever see a structurally sound keel in a sheathed boat of some age. Not around theese parts.
    And what “parts" would "these" be? Sounds like “parts" where I wouldn’t want to buy a boat.....
    Larks

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  22. #92
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    Default Re: Fiberglass Sheathing a 1962 Carvel Hull

    Details concerning how the sheathing is done obviously matter and if done right and maintained, seem to hold good. Back in #20 of this thread there was mention of a teak boat having been sheathed ( teak being a wood that is theoretically not ideal in terms of bonding ease), which prompted me to take a look at her and observe that the boat has been in continuous use for near on 20 years since the job was done... tips on how this was achieved would be useful.

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    Default Re: Fiberglass Sheathing a 1962 Carvel Hull

    Quote Originally Posted by Larks View Post
    And what “parts" would "these" be? Sounds like “parts" where I wouldn’t want to buy a boat.....
    Indeed!!
    Rick

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    Default Re: Fiberglass Sheathing a 1962 Carvel Hull

    Out of the ordinary repairs should be judged on their sucess not their failures.
    Most times, we have no idea what was done. What was prepped,dried, removed, left in, thinned, sanded with a hot disc,first coated on a wet day....endless this list.

  25. #95

    Default Re: Fiberglass Sheathing a 1962 Carvel Hull

    Quote Originally Posted by wizbang 13 View Post
    Out of the ordinary repairs should be judged on their sucess not their failures.
    Most times, we have no idea what was done. What was prepped,dried, removed, left in, thinned, sanded with a hot disc,first coated on a wet day....endless this list.
    And once again the point is missed entirely.

    Epoxy stick well to wood.

    Gougeon bros made a lot of money from this FACT.

    Big bits of wood in a carvel boat can NOT be kept dry.

    The movement of the hull (working), and the expansion and contraction cycles of the timber (moisture content changes) cause the glass to zipper/tear and delaminate.

    FIX THE HULL PROPERLY.

    Don't take all Gougeons advice as gospell.

    IE

    Burying SS fasteners in epoxy and denying the metal oxygen in a salt water enviroment has been proved to only work sometimes.

    Glueing thin strips of wood to a plywood substrate and filling the gaps with black tinted resin ( as an imitation calked deck) has proved mostly to be more problematic than its worth through
    wet dry cycles.

    Just trying to help. But , hey if you want to smother your hull in plastic egged on by the armchair admirals, then go ya hardest.

  26. #96
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    Default Re: Fiberglass Sheathing a 1962 Carvel Hull

    I did warn Gypsie that this thread would attract bucketloads of nonsense.
    Rick

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  27. #97
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    Default Re: Fiberglass Sheathing a 1962 Carvel Hull

    Quote Originally Posted by Balanda View Post
    And once again the point is missed entirely.

    Epoxy stick well to wood.

    Gougeon bros made a lot of money from this FACT.

    Big bits of wood in a carvel boat can NOT be kept dry.

    The movement of the hull (working), and the expansion and contraction cycles of the timber (moisture content changes) cause the glass to zipper/tear and delaminate.

    FIX THE HULL PROPERLY.

    Don't take all Gougeons advice as gospell.

    IE

    Burying SS fasteners in epoxy and denying the metal oxygen in a salt water enviroment has been proved to only work sometimes.

    Glueing thin strips of wood to a plywood substrate and filling the gaps with black tinted resin ( as an imitation calked deck) has proved mostly to be more problematic than its worth through
    wet dry cycles.

    Just trying to help. But , hey if you want to smother your hull in plastic egged on by the armchair admirals, then go ya hardest.
    the heck are you talking about ?

  28. #98
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    Default Re: Fiberglass Sheathing a 1962 Carvel Hull

    Quote Originally Posted by wizbang 13 View Post
    the heck are you talking about ?
    'lost me as well....he’s either “missed the point entirely” or posted to the wrong thread, God alone knows where this came from: "Glueing thin strips of wood to a plywood substrate and filling the gaps with black tinted resin ( as an imitation calked deck)”.............
    Larks

    “It’s impossible”, said pride.
    “It’s risky”, said experience.
    “It’s pointless”, said reason.
    “Give it a try”, whispered the heart.

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  29. #99
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    Default Re: Fiberglass Sheathing a 1962 Carvel Hull

    It's a different sort of hull but still an old wood boat... There is a video at Off Center Harbor where Eric Blake relates his rebuild of the hull of CHARLENA that might help the OP here.

    https://www.offcenterharbor.com/vide...life-charlena/

    OCH is a pay site but the fee is peanuts compared to the cost of this project. Besides, they have a special rate now during the virus pandemic.

    Jeff

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    Default Re: Fiberglass Sheathing a 1962 Carvel Hull

    Balanda and PCFord et all, i do appreciate your input and concern for the boat.
    The option of mulching is worth avoiding in this case.

    jpatrick - thanks for the link, i'll check it out. It looks on the money with the main difference that my boat hasn't reached that level of deterioration yet. This lack of deterioration - with the knowledge that it is on the horizon, is actually the compelling case for sheathing (plus opportunity).
    It's all fun and games until Darth Vader comes.

  31. #101
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    Default Re: Fiberglass Sheathing a 1962 Carvel Hull

    I drew up the profile of the splines/kerf. Rick - this may help the saw guys.
    Spline is a section of a 6° wedge, 3° off each face.

    spline.png

    The drawing represents a 20mm kerf, the splines will be 21mm - to give me something to sand fair.

    I set up the saw and ripped out a few short lengths just to take a look.
    A very simple job to do on site as required. Just prep a whole bunch of 21mm thick planks at I'd say 2m long. 2m to avoid having long thin splines snap as I pick them up. That will be a very quick and simple job on site.
    Flip the plank end on end at each cut.

    IMG_7142.jpg

    Wizbang - you mentioned kerfing wider planks.....
    Most of the planks are about 4" at their widest, and taper toward the stern and stem - except for the first 3 strakes. When you say kerf, do you mean cut a channel in them (not all the way through) or rip them in two (all the way through)?
    What about the deadwood and keel?
    Last edited by gypsie; 06-28-2020 at 08:28 PM.
    It's all fun and games until Darth Vader comes.

  32. #102
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    Default Re: Fiberglass Sheathing a 1962 Carvel Hull

    Any thoughts on the weight of glass?

    Intuitively, heavier is better - but i made that mistake before and heavier just meant unwieldy.
    If its heavy, then 2 layers of 200g cloth (about 7oz) if it exists. I know 6oz is available.

    I would do the whole thing so the hull sheath meets and overlaps the deck sheathing.
    Maybe a single layer topsides and doubled for the leading edges underwater (centerline basically).
    It's all fun and games until Darth Vader comes.

  33. #103
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    Default Re: Fiberglass Sheathing a 1962 Carvel Hull

    Quote Originally Posted by gypsie View Post
    I drew up the profile of the splines/kerf. Rick - this may help the saw guys.
    Spline is a section of a 6° wedge, 3° off each face.

    spline.png

    The drawing represents a 20mm kerf, the splines will be 21mm - to give me something to sand fair.

    I set up the saw and ripped out a few short lengths just to take a look.
    A very simple job to do on site as required. Just prep a whole bunch of 21mm thick planks at I'd say 2m long. 2m to avoid having long thin splines snap as I pick them up. That will be a very quick and simple job on site.
    Flip the plank end on end at each cut.

    IMG_7142.jpg

    Wizbang - you mentioned kerfing wider planks.....
    Most of the planks are about 4" at their widest, and taper toward the stern and stem - except for the first 3 strakes. When you say kerf, do you mean cut a channel in them (not all the way through) or rip them in two (all the way through)?
    What about the deadwood and keel?
    I spoke to Saw City this morning, again. They're looking for an existing blade to modify. Apparently they do a lot of tapered blades but they're usually bigger. Anyway, they'll get back to me and your dimensions will be very helpful.
    Rick

    Lean and nosey like a ferret

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    Default Re: Fiberglass Sheathing a 1962 Carvel Hull

    Quote Originally Posted by gypsie View Post
    Any thoughts on the weight of glass?

    Intuitively, heavier is better - but i made that mistake before and heavier just meant unwieldy.
    If its heavy, then 2 layers of 200g cloth (about 7oz) if it exists. I know 6oz is available.

    I would do the whole thing so the hull sheath meets and overlaps the deck sheathing.
    Maybe a single layer topsides and doubled for the leading edges underwater (centerline basically).
    Two layers of 450g double bias. You could go a bit lighter on one or both layers (although I'm not sure if you can get lighter double bias!). 450 DB wets out easily enough and is not heavy to handle. A few people to help with the laying of the glass will be essential. If you can call in someone who's used to doing it, that would be very helpful.
    Rick

    Lean and nosey like a ferret

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    Default Re: Fiberglass Sheathing a 1962 Carvel Hull

    Watching this interestingly. I just had a look on Boatcraft site and they do a few diff d‘bias weights. Also I read somewhere that you can use bi-axial (fibres at 0- 90 ) but run the cloth on angle (not up/down or for/aft) so you sorta turn it into d’bias. Could work out well at stem, for one oflayers anyway. Also cloth is cheaper.

    that link on OCH is interesting. Especially the way he hung cloth.

    ???

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