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Thread: Fiberglass Sheathing a 1962 Carvel Hull

  1. #36
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    Default Re: Fiberglass Sheathing a 1962 Carvel Hull

    How would you get a 4mm channel into a place like this? Only a router could do it I'd have thought. With an accurate baton/track nailed in.

    IMG_7042.jpg

    The job would be a mixture of circular saw and router.
    Definitely need a router for the ends of the planks at the stem, for example. otherwise i'd be cutting across the rabbet. The rabbet will need a router too - curvy line to follow.
    It's all fun and games until Darth Vader comes.

  2. #37
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    Default Re: Fiberglass Sheathing a 1962 Carvel Hull

    Sheathing is firmly on the cards.
    I'd say i have decided - except i have yet to plunge the blade into the seams - and as Whizbang says, there's no going back then...

    Rick - you mentioned a custom saw blade - I'd like to follow up on that before i buy a new saw. Make sure i'm not picking something with an exotic arbour or something.

    I still have questions, and I am a bit away from complete confidence. I believe a can get the glass on well but i am concerned about areas like around the ballast. I also don't underestimate the amount of work involved in kerfing all those joins. 21 planks from the garboard, deck/sheer plank join is glued, so that's 20 joins plus the rabbet seam and all that craziness around the deadwood.

    IMG_7041.jpg

    There's also a lot of fairing compound to go on, to give the glass a proper landing.

    In short there's a lot of work to be done - BUT i am sure that it's better to do it now, and do it thoroughly, than try and deal with hull issues year on year forever more.
    It's all fun and games until Darth Vader comes.

  3. #38
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    Default Re: Fiberglass Sheathing a 1962 Carvel Hull

    I would put the glass on before fairing because it will need fairing after anyway.
    My 2 cents worth is that the best solution for you is to buy a fibreglass boat.

  4. #39
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    Default Re: Fiberglass Sheathing a 1962 Carvel Hull

    Gypsie, I’d reckon to drive a blade with 4mm kerf you’d be better off with a 7 1/4” 240v saw with one of Ricks custom blades. 4mm is pretty wide for a circ saw blade, they’re generally about 3mm and smaller in battery saws.
    i also have the Makita 18v trim router and while it’s a great tool , to do as much as you want without countless trips back/forward to charger you’d be better with 240v and just hang the cord over your shoulder. Not sure but is that seam compound abrasive? Could need a few router bits, small ones don’t last real long.
    its pretty easy to make sub-bases for either tool and a trailing guide pin base could be a good way to go, perhaps with two pins to keep it straight, although on convex surfaces the pins may ride up out of cut, could make then about 1/2” long?

  5. #40
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    Default Re: Fiberglass Sheathing a 1962 Carvel Hull

    Yes, a trimmer/router where the saw won't fit, and chisel where the trimmer won't fit. When I was going to respline the Twister, I was going to use a 7 1/4" saw. The splining blade needs to be custom-made. I have a friend who did his boat, many years ago, and he'll know what size and angle the blade will need to be. In theory, you could do the tapered slot by doing two runs with the saw up the other way on a relocated batten - if you see what I mean. But getting a blade made should be a lot simpler with less room for error.

    Any good saw shop should be able to make the blade. We have one in Newcastle but there'd be some in Sydney. I suggest that I ask the friend about size and angle and you then get some quotes. I'll get a quote from the guys in Newcastle too. The shop is Saw City in Cardiff. Nice people and really knowledgeable.
    Rick

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  6. #41
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    Default Re: Fiberglass Sheathing a 1962 Carvel Hull

    By the way, I think the tapered groove/slot/kerf is important. I can't really see why Gougeons would recommend a straight slot. I think the spline would just push all the glue out unless i t was a really loose fit. A loose fit is okay with epoxy, of course, but I'd still be concerned about voids and dry areas.

    I'd put the splines in with polyurethane glue, like Purbond. It's just as strong as epoxy, sands more easily, allows a jam fit and likes moisture. So, if the planking is still a bit moist when you do the splining, the poly glue will still bind, whereas epoxy won't. The planking will need to be fairly dry so that there won't be much more shrinking but the glue will work well if there's still a bit of moisture on the edges in the seams.
    Rick

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  7. #42
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    Default Re: Fiberglass Sheathing a 1962 Carvel Hull

    Gougeon recommend a tapered spline. The objective perhaps is to have a gap at the back filled with glue that's been forced deep into the cut by the taper.
    In your thinking Rick - you saying a tapered slot with a rectangular cross section spline? Or tapered spline too?

    I'm with you Andrew - 240v for sure.

    T
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  8. #43
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    Default Re: Fiberglass Sheathing a 1962 Carvel Hull

    A 185mm saw has a cutting depth of 63.5mm (Makita 5007). If i took 40mm off the radius that gives me 105mm blade.
    I could fit a 105mm blade to a 185mm saw and not run the risk of plunging the saw through the planks - or through a frame. It also gives me a lower profile saw to manage - handling a saw that's been tilted up is a bit more fraught than one fully flat.

    There's no custom saw place near me that i can see. But there is Henry brothers in North Sydney.
    Thinking rip saw blade, 105mm diameter, that'd be about 20 teeth. 4.5mm kerf.
    It's all fun and games until Darth Vader comes.

  9. #44
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    Default Re: Fiberglass Sheathing a 1962 Carvel Hull

    Use a biscuit joiner to cut the slots. 4mm blades are commonly available and you have a fine depth adjustment.

  10. #45
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    Default Re: Fiberglass Sheathing a 1962 Carvel Hull

    I don't think the boat needs splining, just kerfing and epoxy filling.
    Splining the topsides gives the advantage of avoiiding "print through", when the hard epoxy shows up in the sun through the softer wood.
    But below the waterline, in all those hard to reach areas? Trust the epoxy or go home.
    For epoxy filled kerfs, the job will use much more epoxy, duh, but the time saved would more than offset that cost. It always does.
    The accuracy of the kerfs is uninportant, where did this 4mm number come from?
    Just cut away the wood fouled with old pitch, old motor oil, old linseed puttyu, old red lead, old anti foul, ...like that, cut it away.
    A 4 inch cordless skilsaw...one can clean those seams faster than 3 batteries can charge...
    Meanwhile, splining the topside seams is so much easier anyway, if you insist.
    bruce

  11. #46
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    Default Re: Fiberglass Sheathing a 1962 Carvel Hull

    Quote Originally Posted by wizbang 13 View Post
    I don't think the boat needs splining, just kerfing and epoxy filling.
    Splining the topsides gives the advantage of avoiiding "print through", when the hard epoxy shows up in the sun through the softer wood.
    But below the waterline, in all those hard to reach areas? Trust the epoxy or go home.
    For epoxy filled kerfs, the job will use much more epoxy, duh, but the time saved would more than offset that cost. It always does.
    The accuracy of the kerfs is uninportant, where did this 4mm number come from?
    Just cut away the wood fouled with old pitch, old motor oil, old linseed puttyu, old red lead, old anti foul, ...like that, cut it away.
    A 4 inch cordless skilsaw...one can clean those seams faster than 3 batteries can charge...
    Meanwhile, splining the topside seams is so much easier anyway, if you insist.
    bruce
    4mm comes from Gougeon Brothers, page 28 or 29 of the 'Repair and Restore' book; https://www.westsystem.com.au/produc.../publications/
    Print through - the neater spline finish above the water is attractive. For long straight runs splines is attractive overall. For those curvy bits maybe packing with thick epoxy is the way to go - but i don't want to take a short cut for the sake of it.

    There's a 115mm Milling Blade (?) off the shelf with a 4mm kerf but a 22mm spindle. Henry brothers can bore that bigger and bush it for 20mm. Its 3.2mm thick which might be an issue for the saw. Apparantly used in truck body work for gouging aluminium.

    Anyway - this thread is moving much faster than i can.
    I still have 19m of 22m of hull to sand.....

    Appreciate the interest and feedback.

    T
    It's all fun and games until Darth Vader comes.

  12. #47
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    Default Re: Fiberglass Sheathing a 1962 Carvel Hull

    Okay. A blade of about 150mm or less to fit your 7 1/4 saw. The taper will need to be the depth of your planking, about 1/8" at the tip and about 1/4" at the other end.
    Last edited by RFNK; 06-17-2020 at 12:04 AM.
    Rick

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  13. #48
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    Default Re: Fiberglass Sheathing a 1962 Carvel Hull

    Quote Originally Posted by Rumars View Post
    Use a biscuit joiner to cut the slots. 4mm blades are commonly available and you have a fine depth adjustment.
    That is an idea worth exploring - thanks Rumars.

    And it can have a flat fence to follow a rail.
    This unit has a max depth of 20mm which is where i was heading. https://sydneytools.com.au/product/d...ointer-machine

    Tight blade could get me round those long curves, and probably even some of the tighter ones. 100mm blade means my routering of the ends of each channel would be minimal.
    It's all fun and games until Darth Vader comes.

  14. #49
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    Default Re: Fiberglass Sheathing a 1962 Carvel Hull

    Forget the biscuit jointer - 'impossible to control going along the hull, they’re designed for a plunge cut and that’s it, also the blade is thicker than you really want.

    I experimented with a few options when I splined a few failed glue lines on my H28 and the easiest ended up being using my small circular saw. I went this route after being encouraged by Phil Young’s success with doing a similar job and am very happy with the result.

    Although mine was a different repair to what you’re wanting to do, the concept is much the same.

    I ended up going full depth and cutting through a few cross plank copper nails in order to carry my spline right through but otherwise just set the depth to miss the nails.

    It was easy enough for me to follow the glue lines without a guide..... much easier than setting up guides anyway for the relatively short lengths that I had to run. Though on multiple full length runs down the hull I couldn’t say if I could keep that accuracy....

    I’ll have to repair a couple more that have opened up since I did these and I’m thinking of maybe getting hold of a smaller battery saw for the job, like one of these:




    For what it’s worth, here’s what I did on the H28: http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...rebuild/page22
    Larks

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    Default Re: Fiberglass Sheathing a 1962 Carvel Hull

    Quote Originally Posted by Larks View Post
    I’m thinking of maybe getting hold of a smaller battery saw for the job, like one of these:
    That was my first thought too. But I'm not sure the battery charging can keep up with the use.... neither is the guy who sells them. 240v seems the best solution, small blade. Then again - i might be over estimating the speed at which i can batten out and cut a kerf.
    I can see the ergonomics of the biscuit cutter could be problematic - your hand not in line with the job. It'd need a sideways handle or something, like a grinder.


    Quote Originally Posted by Larks View Post


    Quote Originally Posted by Larks View Post

    Thanks for the link Larks. How have you found that glue? It looks a bit like silicone...

    I've followed Larrikin's progress from early on. I hadn't spotted that you were back onto it recently. Thanks for the link - absolutely spot on.
    Have you had to deal with any squiggly, bendy curves?
    It's all fun and games until Darth Vader comes.

  16. #51
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    Default Re: Fiberglass Sheathing a 1962 Carvel Hull

    The glue is Fixtech Fixit FMP200, a polyurethane adhesive - I love it !!! (and nothing at all like silicone - I wouldn’t let that within 100 miles of a boat ): https://www.fixtech.com.au/process/c...categoryId=571

    Not quite back on the H28 yet, having a bit if a break after finishing work at ABF (a break as in flat out catching up on work around home) and hoping to get back on to her full time next week for the next six months or so (ie - whatever it takes).

    Re the battery saw - I figure two x 2AH batteries and 30 minute charge time on the fast charger (as supplied with the Makita one) should be enough to keep going without running out of juice.
    Larks

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  17. #52
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    Default Re: Fiberglass Sheathing a 1962 Carvel Hull

    Quote Originally Posted by gypsie View Post
    That is an idea worth exploring - thanks Rumars.

    And it can have a flat fence to follow a rail.
    This unit has a max depth of 20mm which is where i was heading. https://sydneytools.com.au/product/d...ointer-machine

    Tight blade could get me round those long curves, and probably even some of the tighter ones. 100mm blade means my routering of the ends of each channel would be minimal.
    A biscuit jointer is nothing more than an angle grinder with a cutting blade and a fancy base. You do need a dedicated groove cutting blade, not a biscuit blade. There are also machines that look like a skillsaw designed to take the same high speed blades (we call them groove cutters here).
    A skillsaw can do te same job but has thinner blades. It all comes down to what you prefer, so I say rent some machines for a day and do some practice cuts in scrap curved wood (your old transom for example).

    Much more important than this, is to find out how turpentine wood interacts with epoxy and buying a good moisture meter.

  18. #53
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    Default Re: Fiberglass Sheathing a 1962 Carvel Hull

    I haven't given enough thought to the Turpentine and epoxy......
    It's all fun and games until Darth Vader comes.

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    Default Re: Fiberglass Sheathing a 1962 Carvel Hull

    No problem with epoxy adhering to turpentine.
    Rick

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    Default Re: Fiberglass Sheathing a 1962 Carvel Hull

    Yes - woodworking forum search said maybe clean with acetone, nothing definitive.
    Aus-timber guys say - No problem , recommend WEST system.
    It's all fun and games until Darth Vader comes.

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    Default Re: Fiberglass Sheathing a 1962 Carvel Hull

    Quote Originally Posted by gypsie View Post
    I haven't given enough thought to the Turpentine and epoxy......
    As far as I can find online this is not the most glue friendly wood. But the good news is that it is reported as teredo resistant and commonly used untreated for marine pilings. Given this facts I say stop worrying, keep up the antifouling and forget sheating the boat.

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    Default Re: Fiberglass Sheathing a 1962 Carvel Hull

    She's not turpentine all the way to the waterline, just the bottom 4 strakes.
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    Default Re: Fiberglass Sheathing a 1962 Carvel Hull

    Turpentine is incredible. There are wharves in Sydney that have been standing on Turpentine pylons for a hundred years + and still fine.
    I suggest you get someone else to work it though - let them use their own tools

    Fun fact (or fun urban myth) - when the species was planted overseas, the timber harvested didn't have the same rot resistant qualities as the timber from native forests in Australia.
    It's all fun and games until Darth Vader comes.

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    Default Re: Fiberglass Sheathing a 1962 Carvel Hull

    I believe the deeper portions of the hull are more likely to gey the antifouling scraped away. I would just keep her how she is and if damage occurs swap the attacked planks to turpentine. Simpler and cheaper than sheating.
    Here is an article about teredo resistance in australian waters: https://www.researchgate.net/publica...r_in_Australia

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    Default Re: Fiberglass Sheathing a 1962 Carvel Hull

    Yeah - i mean, its easy to write 'swap out attacked planks.....'
    But things I'm thinking about; pulling her off the bottom, sleepless nights, a very big refurb with recaulk/refasten is just over the horizon, (so preservation now, while she is in good condition is timely)........ as well as the actual work/time/expense involved in swapping out attacked planks..... (fulltime job, living a couple of hours from boat yard).

    I'm not being a smart ass mate, I'm on your side, that is exactly my initial approach (kinda) but thinking through all my options and future challenges I've come about to sheathing.

    Pulling the boat out of the water where you are may be straight forward - but here its a multi thousand dollar exercise just for cranes and trucks, plus weeks of planning. Discovering you have an attacked plank might be at an annual winch out for bottom paint, on a train track - itself a $1,000 exercise. It is a necessary redundancy plan, but as far as first plans go it is less attractive.
    It's all fun and games until Darth Vader comes.

  26. #61
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    Default Re: Fiberglass Sheathing a 1962 Carvel Hull

    Fascinating data by the way.
    i would have sworn Jarrah would have been as good as Turpentine.
    I just did some work with Iron Bark - i had to sharpen my tools about every hour!

    White Mahogany sounds attractive - i wonder what it is - never heard of it.....

    wood 1.jpg

    wood 2.jpg

    look where cedar is at - wouldn't have picked that.
    Also wouldn't have picked Black Butt.
    It's all fun and games until Darth Vader comes.

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    Default Re: Fiberglass Sheathing a 1962 Carvel Hull

    Yeas I know it's easy to say and hard to do. I am not adverse to sheating, I only see the potential downfalls, one beeing the wood to epoxy bond, and since I have no hands on experience with this wood I can only say test for yourself. The other is getting the centerline dry enough. You will have to keep the boat on the hard until the wood has stabilized at under 14%. How long that might take I can not tell, but I am guessing it will take a lot longer than the oregon planks.
    If you go for only a light sheating you should probably drop the ballast and glass under it. A structural sheating can go over it.

    A backup plan could be to take accurate plank patterns of all the underwater planks on mylar film, right now when she is naked. Then you can source the turpentine, mill it, dry it and cut it into planks at home. By screws, oakum, etc. and be ready for a week or two of hard work at the time of one of the regular haulouts in the future. The problem is I would estimate this work to happen in 2-3 years time, so you have to trust she stays afloat without problems until the time comes.

    White mahogany: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eucalyptus_acmenoides

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    Default Re: Fiberglass Sheathing a 1962 Carvel Hull

    Quote Originally Posted by Rumars View Post
    If you go for only a light sheating you should probably drop the ballast and glass under it. A structural sheating can go over it.
    This is something i am grappling with.
    Yeah - drying centerline timbers. It's a big slab of turpentine, and some.....
    It's all fun and games until Darth Vader comes.

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    Default Re: Fiberglass Sheathing a 1962 Carvel Hull

    I have never splined a hull but I have spent the past twenty years using epoxy doing exterior wood restoration. I’m just finishing a highly ornate Victorian porch.

    I think the Gougens square kerf tapered spline with epoxy is the way to go. The taper will force the epoxy into all the nooks and crannies as you tap in the spline. The outside of the spline will be wood to wood contact almost. If you clean squeeze out this will help with fairing as you’ll have less epoxy to sand. You can buy a bunch of square blades for the cost of one tapered so you’ll always have one that’s sharp and an errant fastener hit won’t ruin your day.

    West six10 epoxy would be the ideal epoxy system as you’d have no mixing and it’s formulated not to need a primer coat of raw epoxy. It would also be really expensive. My local epoxy distributor ordered me a case of empty caulk tubes as a favor. I cut the back end at a 45 degree angle for easier filling. It’s really helpful to be able to shoot the epoxy exactly where you need it quickly and cleanly. I think the amount of epoxy it’s saved me has more than made up for the cost of the tubes.

    If I had to guess I would say the tapered spline thing is a hangover from pre epoxy times. With any other adhesive it would help with getting the correct fit.

    I would never consider polyurethane adhesives. To be effective you need a fit as tight and perfect as you do with pva. In gaps it turns into a foam which is useless structurally. If the wood isn’t dry enough for epoxy you shouldn’t be splining it anyway. The only thing I use it for is curved laminations for furniture where clamping pressure is too much for the epoxy I use.

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    Default Re: Fiberglass Sheathing a 1962 Carvel Hull

    Thanks Jfitzger - I appreciate that input.
    You're observation with the tapered spline is exactly what i was thinking - pushing the epoxy into the hard to reach places. That Six10 delivery system is nice - i have/had a small tube of it somewhere. But at $40 for less than 200ml ($200 a litre), I think i'll be putting in the hard yards .

    When you say tapered spline is a hangover - you mean, in your opinion, the spline isn't necessary? Just a thin kerf with epoxy filler?
    Wizbang suggested the same thing.
    How (without spending $200 a litre) do you ensure you get the glue to the very back of the cut - and consistently fill the gap.......? Spline is a great way to shove it in there.
    It's all fun and games until Darth Vader comes.

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    Default Re: Fiberglass Sheathing a 1962 Carvel Hull

    I misspoke. I was trying to say tapered saw blade. I think the tapered spline would be helpful if your going to spline. If you have access to a table saw cutting tapered splines won’t take anymore time than straight ones.

    I can’t answer with any authority to whether splines are necessary or not. Most of things I’ve done I’ve used as much wood as I can while maintaining a 1-3mm gap filled with epoxy. This has more to do with saving a bit of money and my natural tendency towards furniture fit joints. Wizbangs comments or a call to West would be a better resource.

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    Default Re: Fiberglass Sheathing a 1962 Carvel Hull

    If you use a splining blade and tapered splines, you will achieve a very tight fit as you will jam them in with a mallet. Poly glue will work perfectly and is a better option if there is any moisture in the seams, which, of course, is likely. If you try to bog it up with epoxy around ill-fitting splines, you're going to end up with voids and areas where glue has been scraped away. Along with problems with moisture in the seams. Of course it's up to you but I'd rather achieve a continuous surface of planking and splines than a mess of strips buried in epoxy.
    Rick

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    Default Re: Fiberglass Sheathing a 1962 Carvel Hull

    That sounds like the snug fit that would work. I suppose its the choice - snug fit all the way along (Ploy glue, somewhat damp timber), or a fit with gaps inside with plenty of gap filling goop (thickened epoxy glue, dry timber)

    I'll run a few test strips to see what kind of beveled batten i can consistently produce.
    Looking at some seams, 4mm is probably the right max thickness. the bevel seams in some places have opened about that much.
    4mm down to 3mm.

    we hadn't any substantial rain here for going on a couple of years. maybe a few days once a quarter at best. But since February its been raining every second day. The boat is still nice and tight (which in any other circumstance would be a good thing).
    It's all fun and games until Darth Vader comes.

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    Default Re: Fiberglass Sheathing a 1962 Carvel Hull

    I think running a straight blade along battens to achieve a tapered groove is going to be very difficult. I'll get a quote up here for you, later this week. If it's not too dear, I reckon it'll definitely be the easiest method. Cutting tapered splines is obviously very easy.
    Rick

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    Default Re: Fiberglass Sheathing a 1962 Carvel Hull

    Seriously Gypsie - I would be taking Rick up on his offer of chasing up the tapered blade and using tapered battens with something like the Fixtech Fixit FMP 200 polyurethane glue. I had success with untapped battens but I had them going all the way through the thickness of the hull, if I was in your position I’d be doing the 40 to 50% fill with tapered battens
    Larks

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    "Keep away from people who try to belittle your ambitions. Small people always do that, but the really great make you feel that you, too, can become great!"

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