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Thread: Fiberglass Sheathing a 1962 Carvel Hull

  1. #561
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    Default Re: Fiberglass Sheathing a 1962 Carvel Hull

    Quote Originally Posted by ron jesche View Post
    Hi Gypsie, I happened across your post for the first time today. I know the boat well. Freddy who you bought her from is a good friend and I have a boat that was moored almost opposite her for some years before you took her to Sydney. It is nice to see her again and looking good, and I am happy someone is putting the work in to her that she deserves.
    Will watch your progress with interest.
    Just remember, real men use fast hardener!!
    Hey Ron, wow, thats very cool. Thanks for sending up a flag.
    Fred knew the deck needed replacing when he sold it, not so sure he knew the hull would be so radically changed. I continue to feel very responsible, Fred was clearly very attached to the boat and worried about its welfare.
    I hope he's well, please pass on my best wishes if you see him.
    Trev
    Last edited by gypsie; 02-04-2021 at 10:53 PM.
    It's all fun and games until Darth Vader comes.

  2. #562
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    Default Re: Fiberglass Sheathing a 1962 Carvel Hull

    This;

    IMG_7880.jpg

    became this;

    IMG_7891.jpg

    and is now this;

    IMG_7938.jpg

    Its like moving from cellulite to a well toned a$$. Not that i know anything about such things.
    It's all fun and games until Darth Vader comes.

  3. #563
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    Default Re: Fiberglass Sheathing a 1962 Carvel Hull

    Still plenty to do.

    IMG_7936.jpg

    But some satisfying transformations;

    IMG_7931.jpg

    IMG_7937.jpg
    It's all fun and games until Darth Vader comes.

  4. #564
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    Default Re: Fiberglass Sheathing a 1962 Carvel Hull

    Two skims on the Port side, and one major trowelling on - on the starboard side.
    both need more.

    Starboard patch, you can see how the epoxy mix is yellow where it isn't sanded, showing up hollows.

    IMG_7935.jpg

    But there is plenty of subtle dips and hollows left.

    The torture board is no guarantee of no flat spots. Working quickly, and not so thoroughly, is the best approach i find. Just got to accept, psychologically, that i can't do it in one hit. It is a careful building up to the point where i am happy to say enough. Polishing it just creates flat spots.
    Another tell tale for holows is weave. At one point i thought i'd sanded into the glass, but realised it the weave print of the peelply - finely dusted with epoxy dust, it shows up.

    Aaaaand thats another thing - I'm a micro-plastic producing machine, with no practical way of catching that dust which must necessarily end up in the creek/sea. I'm feeling so bad about it i can hardly even admit it.


    I'm thinking i'll just plod along and if maritime pull the plug on my mooring, so be it.
    I really am reluctant to go back on that spot anyway - its just fraught at the best of times.

    Will keep on chugging on and see what happens.
    Last edited by gypsie; 02-04-2021 at 11:34 PM.
    It's all fun and games until Darth Vader comes.

  5. #565
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    Default Re: Fiberglass Sheathing a 1962 Carvel Hull

    Nice work Trev’, I don’t envy you one little bit but I think we all agree that it will be well worth the effort. Chug along indeed, but being Friday maybe you can chugalug one or two instead.....
    Larks

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  6. #566
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    Default Re: Fiberglass Sheathing a 1962 Carvel Hull

    Yep, looking great!
    Rick

    Lean and nosey like a ferret

  7. #567
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    Default Re: Fiberglass Sheathing a 1962 Carvel Hull

    Yes, did chug a few, and had to give today a pass.
    It's all fun and games until Darth Vader comes.

  8. #568
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    Default Re: Fiberglass Sheathing a 1962 Carvel Hull

    Got into it today, Sunday, but.
    (its my favourite Aussie thing, to put 'but' at the end of the sentence, its so aussie, i love it!)

    Pics to follow, they're on my phone.

    decisions!! how far to bring it?

    today i tried a couple of thing to identify highs and lows, all successful in one way or another. nothing as successful as just running your hand over the surface with your eyes closed and then circling hollows with a texter.

    Filled the hollows generously.

    then, considering the vast majority of unevenness, i thought a skim of slightly thickened material, rollered on (paint roller), might bring it mostly good. And it seems to have.
    Brought the mixture to a creamy conistency, so its about 50/50 fairing compoud, so it'll still be sand-able, maybe a bit tougher - but fine. Going on, plenty or orange peel, which i hate. but ---- refections!! oh, almost good not mirror, but recognisable, consistent...... SO CLOSE!!

    But how far to bring it.

    95% there - its like formula 1 race cars - how much does that last 5% cost in blood sweat tears itching and treasure?

    Its all torture board now. Today was my first 100% torture board. Up to now i've been using electric tools to tear out the obvious high bits and lumps first. Racing through the sand paper, just ordered some more. i've been using 80, but i think its scratching too rough, will bring it up to 120.
    Also, gotta keep an eye on the Epoxy meter; looking like 60litres won't quite get me there.....
    Last edited by gypsie; 02-07-2021 at 06:54 AM.
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  9. #569
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    Default Re: Fiberglass Sheathing a 1962 Carvel Hull

    Trev, if you’re running low on epoxy anyway maybe try a bit of Jotun Jotafair for your final fairing effort. It goes on green, is easy and convenient to mix (two thick putty like compounds mixed by volume), doesn’t slump at all, is much easier to smooth out to a good finish when putting it down and I find it much easier to sand than epoxy and fairing fillers.

    I still use epoxy and fairing fillers for filling the weave and any bulky areas but I’ve been using Jotafair here as a final finish before painting and I like it much better than anything else to get that final level surface.
    Larks

    “It’s impossible”, said pride.
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  10. #570
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    Default Re: Fiberglass Sheathing a 1962 Carvel Hull

    Greg, do you put finish coat onto Jotafair or use a primer? If you use a primer, I'd recommend Jotun Penguard, a hi-build primer, and then finish with either Awlgrip, Awlcraft or Perfection. Use a shadow coat when sanding the primer.
    Rick

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  11. #571
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    Default Re: Fiberglass Sheathing a 1962 Carvel Hull

    Quote Originally Posted by RFNK View Post
    Greg, do you put finish coat onto Jotafair or use a primer? If you use a primer, I'd recommend Jotun Penguard, a hi-build primer, and then finish with either Awlgrip, Awlcraft or Perfection. Use a shadow coat when sanding the primer.

    I’m no paint expert so I don’t really know whether a finish coat could go over it directly or not Rick, I’ve only ever treated it as the fairing element of a complete coating system and used whatever primer coats the paint that I’m using recommends. It is (apparently) compatible with most paint systems and I’ve been using it under International/Awlgrip, Northane and Hempel paints and have also successfully used it over the top of a two part finish coat (after sanding and washing down) to repair damage or to re-fair something that I’ve missed before painting, I don’t know if that’s recommended or not but it’s worked well enough for me.

    I’ve not used the Penguard high build primer (or any of the Jotun Penguard stuff) generally I’ve stuck with whatever high build primer is recommended as part of the paint system but I’m "told" they’re all pretty much the same thing anyway.......it may just come down to price but I reckon I might give the Penguard high build a try based on the recommendation.


    I’d add that, when it comes to marine paints, my only “expertise" is in project managing others to do the painting - dealing with the crews that apply the paint systems and knowing what questions to ask them, what to look out for and what records they need to keep so that I know where to look if/when a paint system fails and can deal with paint companies afterwards. I have had to deal with a lot of paint system failures, each worth hundreds of thousands of dollars, and in 9 out of 10 cases it has been judged as application issues, though admittedly sometimes that may have been because the guys painting hadn’t kept suitable records during application so they didn’t have a leg to stand on when arguing their case.

    The only time that I’ve had any success getting a supplier to accept responsibility for a paint system failure was one that I project managed myself and we had complete and accurate records of the application and I paid for a NASE 3 paint inspector to inspect every phase of the application. (When you’re paying over $500k for a paint job plus the potential cost of a second haul out to rectify that’s what you do...). The paint started failing within 6 months and it ended up being the suppliers fault for specifying an incompatible system.
    Last edited by Larks; 02-07-2021 at 07:12 PM.
    Larks

    “It’s impossible”, said pride.
    “It’s risky”, said experience.
    “It’s pointless”, said reason.
    “Give it a try”, whispered the heart.

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  12. #572
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    Default Re: Fiberglass Sheathing a 1962 Carvel Hull

    I have Jotun primer on my list of things to get.
    I could only find a Jotun supplier in brisbane, and the freight was prohibitive. Know a supplier in Sydney?

    I'd build it up with the Jotun, and then prime with the 2 pack epoxy primer from Norglas. I've got a full system from Norgals for priming, topsides, deck etc... and the epoxy primer is suitable to have antuifoul go straight over it.

    Then the plan is a coat of non-ablative, followed by three+ coats of ablative. I've seen this done, and it has a logic. The shipwright shrugged and didn't see a problem, the guys at Whitworths said 'yeah people do it all the time' and left it at that, I'm thinking lack of enthusiasm all round is a good sign....


    I also clearly have way too much fairing compound, i might see if the supplier will give me a credit for a 20litre bag, toward 4litres of epoxy. That'll be heaps at the current rate of use. The Jotun idea may not be necessary. It's always handy to have some epoxy around the house anyway.
    I do like this west epoxy, it hardens with a bit of give, not as brittle as the International stuff. Feels right for a boat.
    It's all fun and games until Darth Vader comes.

  13. #573
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    Default Re: Fiberglass Sheathing a 1962 Carvel Hull

    I'm pretty sure Marine Ware in Sydney would stock Jotun products. MW Supplies, in Newcastle, is a Marine Ware affiliate and they stock Jotun.

    Jotun Penguard is their high-build primer. I like it very much although it really stinks until it cures. You get a really smooth, plaster-like finish that sands easily for a week or two.

    Awlgrip is actually easy to apply once you know how and it gives a spray quality finish off the roller. But it's unforgiving. You can't polish out any runs or other faults.

    Awlcraft is Awlgrip's spray paint. You can roll it on and then polish it. Both are excellent. I believe Perfection is also really good.
    Rick

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    Default Re: Fiberglass Sheathing a 1962 Carvel Hull

    Quote Originally Posted by gypsie View Post

    I'd build it up with the Jotun, and then prime with the 2 pack epoxy primer from Norglas. I've got a full system from Norgals for priming, topsides, deck etc... and the epoxy primer is suitable to have antuifoul go straight over it.
    The only problem that I’ve had with Norglass has been with colour change over a short period of time - the white that I used to touch up my Hartley cabin top was a perfect match when it went on and for a week or so, but then it went a completely different shade showing starkly against the areas that I hadn’t repainted. I went over it again and painted the whole lot to get it to match but even then, because it was such a good match going on, after a couple of weeks it showed up even more small areas that I had managed to miss.

    Having said that, I don’t really know if the issue was the Norglass paint or the type of tint that the supplier used in it - I have a strong suspicion that it was the type of tint that they use. I bought it through Inspirations Paint and Colour and they have a standard tint base out front for most paints but they also have a different type of tint base for auto paints and I suspect (but don’t really know) that they need to use that one rather than their normal tint base. So if you do get (or have gotten) the paint tinted it may pay to ask the supplier about what sort of tint they use and if they can guarantee compatibility with the paint.

    If they don’t know it should at least prompt them to check.
    Larks

    “It’s impossible”, said pride.
    “It’s risky”, said experience.
    “It’s pointless”, said reason.
    “Give it a try”, whispered the heart.

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  15. #575
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    Default Re: Fiberglass Sheathing a 1962 Carvel Hull

    I got told this Gem a while ago when I had my H28.
    Apply a different colour antifoul as you base layer. That way you know when your top layers has worn through and the different colour is showing through you know it's time to recoat.

  16. #576
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    Default Re: Fiberglass Sheathing a 1962 Carvel Hull

    Hi James, yeah that's my thinking. White non-ablative, red ablative.

    Larks, no tint added to my paints. They come as standard colours. Epoxy primer, pu top, sand coloured deck. I find they have very short shed life once opened, except the two packs that is.
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    Default Re: Fiberglass Sheathing a 1962 Carvel Hull

    Two things which will show up the highs and lows: sunlight from different angles, looks perfect in the morning, but looks lumpy early afternoon... etc... then when you've got her as good as you want you'll think, ok, time to paint. Chuck on the first coat of two pack primer and... oh... didn't see that before, or that, or that... so be ready to sand off much of your first coat of paint and do some more filling. Actually I think yacht paints, international, or whatever they're called, have a paint specifically for showing up the imperfections in the fairing process... and the idea is to sand the paint off again and then buy more from them... of course.

  18. #578
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    Default Re: Fiberglass Sheathing a 1962 Carvel Hull

    ^
    I think the Jotun paint Rick and Larks have mentioned is something like what you are describing.
    I think you are right, its impossible to see the hollows when the surface is so 'camo' like.

    The Jotafair sounds like a goer I think. Larks - is it a paint on like application (roller) or a squeegee?
    It's all fun and games until Darth Vader comes.

  19. #579
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    Default Re: Fiberglass Sheathing a 1962 Carvel Hull

    My camera is going from worse to worser. The dust inside it is silly - good job its not mechanical.
    Used some black spray paint to see if it highlighted hollows as i took off high spots.

    IMG_7943.jpg

    Didn't really work - if i did it again i'd use a dayglow orange or green. The black sorta just blended into the different shades on the surface already.

    A better method was circling hollows with a texter;

    IMG_7946.jpg
    It's all fun and games until Darth Vader comes.

  20. #580
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    Default Re: Fiberglass Sheathing a 1962 Carvel Hull

    most of the hollows felt like they were a coat of paint deep, so i gave the boat a layer.
    It was very promising. Almost reflections!!

    IMG_7948.jpg

    Nice to see the planking come through. the epoxy was looking very grey and i feared for excessive air trapped - but it was just the peel-ply texture.

    IMG_7950.jpg

    in other news, fairing block for transducer.

    IMG_7959.jpg

    Attempted block to mount nav light on Transom.
    UGLY! gotta find a plan B - hang from the pushpit.

    IMG_7960.jpg
    It's all fun and games until Darth Vader comes.

  21. #581
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    Default Re: Fiberglass Sheathing a 1962 Carvel Hull

    Well done, that's a big project and you're making headway! Re: stern light, pushpit mount has the advantage of being higher, especially when sailing hard and the transom will be very close to the water surface.
    Brian

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    Default Re: Fiberglass Sheathing a 1962 Carvel Hull

    Quote Originally Posted by gypsie View Post
    ^
    I think the Jotun paint Rick and Larks have mentioned is something like what you are describing.
    I think you are right, its impossible to see the hollows when the surface is so 'camo' like.

    The Jotafair sounds like a goer I think. Larks - is it a paint on like application (roller) or a squeegee?
    No, it’s still more like putty (than a thick paint), I use something like a plaster spatula and pick one to suit the size of divot or dent that I’m filling. It goes on easily and because it’s not so sticky nor particularly messy like thickened epoxy you can work it more easily and get a pretty fair finish and it’s very easy to sand nonetheless and easy to go over again to fill any lines from the spatula or grit that you might leave in it. It’s so convenient and easy that you’ll most likely find that you’ll be happy to go over it a few times to get it perfect, rather than feeling the frustration of having to remix epoxy and reapply and re-sand with great effort...... (in my opinion anyway).
    Larks

    “It’s impossible”, said pride.
    “It’s risky”, said experience.
    “It’s pointless”, said reason.
    “Give it a try”, whispered the heart.

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  23. #583
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    Default Re: Fiberglass Sheathing a 1962 Carvel Hull

    I've used a similar product for fairing and highly recommend it. It's much more pleasant to use than epoxy, and you can lay it on so neatly there's not much wastage,

  24. #584
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    Default Re: Fiberglass Sheathing a 1962 Carvel Hull

    Looking really good. You got a lot more patience than I have! Sorer shoulders too I bet!

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    Default Re: Fiberglass Sheathing a 1962 Carvel Hull

    Thanks guys, I've spoken with Marine Ware and told them where I'm at.
    They recommended Penguard High Build epoxy primer. I'm actually within a whisper of being finished - says me before i put on a flat coat of paint and see the warts and all....

    Anyway, bought the primer, 20litres of it, should give me a few go's at it. 1 litre at .28mm thickness gives me about 4msq. shy of a third of a mill - i thought it'd be a bit heftier.
    Will be very glad to get some paint on the hull - even if its epoxy.

    Willin W - I wouldn't be so confident on the patience part - running a bit thin now. If it ain't raining its stupid hot. 37°C on Saturday. (40°C is a hot shower.)
    It's all fun and games until Darth Vader comes.

  26. #586
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    Default Re: Fiberglass Sheathing a 1962 Carvel Hull

    Applied the first coat of primer - on the port side, then it got too dark.
    Pretty happy.

    In the micro the surface is flat and smooth, if you get the light at the right angle you can see undulations on the surface - testimony to the longer the fairing board you can use the better.
    It's all fun and games until Darth Vader comes.

  27. #587
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    Default Re: Fiberglass Sheathing a 1962 Carvel Hull

    Some pics from after the last sanding - not much has changed really.

    IMG_7968.jpg

    IMG_7969.jpg

    War clouds were gathering.
    Perfect day for it - 24° and little to no sun. Gentle breeze.

    IMG_7970.jpg
    It's all fun and games until Darth Vader comes.

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    Default Re: Fiberglass Sheathing a 1962 Carvel Hull

    You may feel not much has changed, but you are getting there. Good on ya!
    Tact is the ability to tell someone to go to hell and have them look forward to the journey.
    Winston Churchill.

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    Default Re: Fiberglass Sheathing a 1962 Carvel Hull

    I started to apply the primer, not expecting much apart from perhaps a sinking feeling as all my future work became apparant.
    But first licks on at the stern, around the new transom/toe rail - looked sweet enough for me to drop tools and take a picture.
    I climbed up on my neighbours boat (rusting steel hulk, I was afraid i'd fall through the deck) and took a 'before' snap. Didn't get an after - i ran out of daylight.

    IMG_7974.jpg

    Close up with my dust filled phone of a patch on the hull proper. May not be able to see it properly, but nice even smooth curve - like a bought one. I am so stoked. Almost no dings, and the hollows that are there are so shallow they're indiscernable.

    IMG_7975.jpg

    Next visit, i'll prime the starboard, fill dings and maybe rub the entire thing with the fairing board sideways - really lift out the high spots.

    16litres of primer, at about 1.5litres per side - I've got plenty of coats in the tin.
    I might repaint the entire deck cabin area again...... while its out.

    Also started work on sanding the topsides brightwork.
    It's all fun and games until Darth Vader comes.

  30. #590
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    Default Re: Fiberglass Sheathing a 1962 Carvel Hull

    Also, recieved some hardware;

    New stem head fitting - exact(ish) copy of original. But in 316SS - original was mild steel and in spite of thorough priming/painting with epoxy and PU paints, it wept rust constantly.

    IMG_7962.jpg

    I intend to paint that white - ANY TIPS welcome; i think its a tad oily. I imagine a good wipe down with acetone, but is that enough? feels like i should bath it in something. I was thinking of the dishware - but only when the head of OH&S is out.

    Backstay chain plate;

    IMG_7963.jpg

    I drew this up in CAD and had a local outfit laser cut it. It was three pieces. I got the angle from a design drawing of the Seabird in the Wooden Boat magazine from a few years back. Guesstimated the height above the deck so my new backstay will reach it
    The shape and dimensions are from the side stay chain plates - its a very close match (identical really).

    Dry fit; like a bought one - absolutely perfect snug fit.

    IMG_7964.jpg

    Small coach screw into the toe-rail from the top.
    2x 8mm coach screws about half way down - the holes are low enough to allow me to drive a 70mm screw without penetrating the deck material.
    Then an M10 straight through the very bottom, through the transom and knee to a nut on the inside.

    A slap of the linisher;

    IMG_7965.jpg

    down to 3000, still got a bit of the 'brushed' look, which i like.
    It's all fun and games until Darth Vader comes.

  31. #591
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    Default Re: Fiberglass Sheathing a 1962 Carvel Hull

    Quote Originally Posted by Stiletto View Post
    You may feel not much has changed, but you are getting there. Good on ya!
    Thanks mate - I'm feeling good about it for the first time in a while
    It's all fun and games until Darth Vader comes.

  32. #592
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    Default Re: Fiberglass Sheathing a 1962 Carvel Hull

    Quote Originally Posted by gypsie View Post
    Also, recieved some hardware;

    New stem head fitting - exact(ish) copy of original. But in 316SS - original was mild steel and in spite of thorough priming/painting with epoxy and PU paints, it wept rust constantly.

    IMG_7962.jpg

    I intend to paint that white - ANY TIPS welcome; i think its a tad oily. I imagine a good wipe down with acetone, but is that enough? feels like i should bath it in something. I was thinking of the dishware - but only when the head of OH&S is out.
    .
    If you’ve built that yourself Trev I’d say that you’ve done a nice job - but if you’ve paid a fabricator to weld that I’d say take it back to them and tell them to finish welding it and clean up their welds and cut edges. It looks like the apprentice has had a crack at it and I’d have never let that out of our workshop.

    But if you’re happy with it and got it done for the right price I’ll wind my neck in. As far as painting it goes, it looks like it still needs pickling and passivating before doing anything else with it. If you don’t it’ll bleed rust under the paint at the welds and where it was cut.

    You could also consider having it powder coated - it usually ends up being just as or more cost effective than buying the paint and doing the prep’ yourself.
    Larks

    “It’s impossible”, said pride.
    “It’s risky”, said experience.
    “It’s pointless”, said reason.
    “Give it a try”, whispered the heart.

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  33. #593
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    Jun 2010
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    Default Re: Fiberglass Sheathing a 1962 Carvel Hull

    Hey Larks - it was done professionally.
    First SS welder knocked it back, said it couldn't be done without serious distortion. (Guy made kitchens).
    The second guy specialises in marine welding, said he'd have a crack at it and see, this is the result. Looks like stick rather than TIG - tight spaces, the gaps between uprights is about 50mm. Some spater, no undercut that I've noticed. Boiler maker friend had a close up inspection, he was cool with it - and yeah, somewhat rough. I'm happy to go with it, there may be better work out there, but I don't have access to it.

    I was thinking powder coating, quick sand blast and bake it.

    You talked about pickling and passivating on your hardware for larrikin, what's that involve? You mentioned some kind of acid dip? Whats the theory/effect?
    It's all fun and games until Darth Vader comes.

  34. #594
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    Default Re: Fiberglass Sheathing a 1962 Carvel Hull

    Quote Originally Posted by gypsie View Post
    Hey Larks - it was done professionally.
    First SS welder knocked it back, said it couldn't be done without serious distortion. (Guy made kitchens).
    The second guy specialises in marine welding, said he'd have a crack at it and see, this is the result. Looks like stick rather than TIG - tight spaces, the gaps between uprights is about 50mm. Some spater, no undercut that I've noticed. Boiler maker friend had a close up inspection, he was cool with it - and yeah, somewhat rough. I'm happy to go with it, there may be better work out there, but I don't have access to it.

    I was thinking powder coating, quick sand blast and bake it.

    You talked about pickling and passivating on your hardware for larrikin, what's that involve? You mentioned some kind of acid dip? Whats the theory/effect?
    I’m no expert on it but stainless steel, whenever it is cut or welded, in simple terms needs to pickled and passivated to essentially remove contamination introduced by cutting or welding and restore its stainless qualities.

    This might explain it far better than I know how to: https://www.worldstainless.org/Files...ickling_EN.pdf


    (and I’m sorry but I'd say that the second guy definitely does not specialise in marine welding.... as I said - that job would never have been allowed out of our workshop like that. The welds would have been completed and they’d have been blended and polished to remove all of the weld wrinkles and present a smooth seamless transition...... I just hope it was cheap for you.....
    Larks

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  35. #595
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
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    Default Re: Fiberglass Sheathing a 1962 Carvel Hull

    that link is fascinating Larks, thanks.
    It's all fun and games until Darth Vader comes.

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