Page 4 of 29 FirstFirst ... 34514 ... LastLast
Results 106 to 140 of 995

Thread: Fiberglass Sheathing a 1962 Carvel Hull

  1. #106
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Vancouver Island
    Posts
    2,393

    Default Re: Fiberglass Sheathing a 1962 Carvel Hull

    I'll just throw this description in the mix. Hope the pic works. / Jim

    image.jpg

  2. #107
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Location
    Between Bourgeoisie and Proletariat - Australia
    Posts
    7,173

    Default Re: Fiberglass Sheathing a 1962 Carvel Hull

    Nice one Chas.
    The evidence for a successful outcome is mounting.
    It's all fun and games until Darth Vader comes.

  3. #108
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Location
    Between Bourgeoisie and Proletariat - Australia
    Posts
    7,173

    Default Re: Fiberglass Sheathing a 1962 Carvel Hull

    Quote Originally Posted by jpatrick View Post
    It's a different sort of hull but still an old wood boat... There is a video at Off Center Harbor where Eric Blake relates his rebuild of the hull of CHARLENA that might help the OP here.

    https://www.offcenterharbor.com/vide...life-charlena/

    OCH is a pay site but the fee is peanuts compared to the cost of this project. Besides, they have a special rate now during the virus pandemic.

    Jeff
    Thanks for that link.

    I think whizbang and that guy would get along!

    He uses a nice little rig with a router for his kerfs. Parallel sided channel, small spline on the base of his router which tracks into the kerfed seam between the planks.

    spline 2.jpg

    Interesting, his observation that the boat became wobbly once he's opened the seams! But he seems to feel that was because its iron fastenings were loose.....
    He filled the seams with a 2 part epoxy putty (and then forced the shape back into the boat with jacks and ratchet straps...). When the epoxy putty went off, he released it and wollah!

    Getting under the boat.....
    Mine's currently sitting on its lead ballast - mostly. There's a small support further back, but i don't think its doing much.
    Getting the lead up will be interesting........ Must have a look at Leo's strategies form early on in his build.

    VERY inspiring video mate - thanks heaps.
    It's all fun and games until Darth Vader comes.

  4. #109
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Location
    Wongawallan Oz
    Posts
    17,024

    Default Re: Fiberglass Sheathing a 1962 Carvel Hull

    When you say getting the lead up - are you meaning getting it off to sheath under it??

    For what it’s worth, I watched the Catersons (boat builders) crew sheath an Oregon (Douglas fir) planked hull at Gold Coast City Marine a few years ago when I was working there. I had taken photos of the process but am blowed if I can find them - which is why I hadn’t posted about it earlier (while I was looking for the photos to remind me of their process).

    The boat had previously been sheathed above the water line only to cope with drying out, but the owner had decided to sheath below the water line as well, purely because he was finding that the high pressure from the yards water blasting hull cleans were now starting to tear into the grain of the timber. It hadn’t been a problem previously because he’d been able to do it himself but the new environmental laws meant that he had no choice but to use the commercial yard and their equipment and their containment system.

    Anyway - they didn’t drop the lead. They sheathed around out and (if my memory serves me right without the photos to remind me) they used a heaver weave around the lead and under it.
    Larks

    “It’s impossible”, said pride.
    “It’s risky”, said experience.
    “It’s pointless”, said reason.
    “Give it a try”, whispered the heart.

    LPBC Beneficiary

    "Keep away from people who try to belittle your ambitions. Small people always do that, but the really great make you feel that you, too, can become great!"

  5. #110
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Port Stephens
    Posts
    25,691

    Default Re: Fiberglass Sheathing a 1962 Carvel Hull

    I was umming and aaahing over this when I was going to restore the Twister. I decided, in the end, to sheath around the lead, after making sure that the keel bolts etc. were good. I think it depends on how the lead is set in or on the keel. It would be fine to simply run the sheathing onto the lead as the epoxy will stick to it. But if the lead is set in a cavity, whereby the timber keel forms the leading edge, then it'd be simpler to just wrap the whole thing in glass. Taking the ballast right off is another option but I doubt that would be necessary. I think doing it the way Greg's yard did it is probably the simplest, as long as the keel bolts are sound. Easy enough to take one out and check it. If they're stainless (they won't be), chuck them away and get bronze or mild steel.
    Rick

    Lean and nosey like a ferret

  6. #111
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Location
    Between Bourgeoisie and Proletariat - Australia
    Posts
    7,173

    Default Re: Fiberglass Sheathing a 1962 Carvel Hull

    I was wondering about how to lift the bugger to get under it.

    My instinct is to wrap the lead.
    Bolts all look brand new, on the outside. All fasteners on the boat have come out in great condition - even ones in rough spots. There's no reason to suspect any decay in the keel bolts (which i believe are monel).

    Stem covers the leading tip of the lead. not quite a cavity, but the seam is not exposed forward.

    IMG_7038.jpg
    It's all fun and games until Darth Vader comes.

  7. #112
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Port Stephens
    Posts
    25,691

    Default Re: Fiberglass Sheathing a 1962 Carvel Hull

    Monel is perfect. Yes, I would do the full wrap. I'd add an extra layer around the bottom. Grind the lead to bare metal. Horrible job but no need to be fussy. The interesting bit is finding out whether your keel bolts go all the way through or there are pockets in the side of the lead. Both methods were common.
    Rick

    Lean and nosey like a ferret

  8. #113
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Location
    Between Bourgeoisie and Proletariat - Australia
    Posts
    7,173

    Default Re: Fiberglass Sheathing a 1962 Carvel Hull

    There are wooden plugs underneath, no pockets on the side.
    The sand blasting brought it all back to bare metal - save the very bottom ridge.

    The yard has a (dodgy) franner crane/forklift thing, i can shift the dunnage when the time comes.
    It's all fun and games until Darth Vader comes.

  9. #114
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Location
    Wongawallan Oz
    Posts
    17,024

    Default Re: Fiberglass Sheathing a 1962 Carvel Hull

    Quote Originally Posted by gypsie View Post
    I was wondering about how to lift the bugger to get under it.

    I made this up to lift my H28 in place to raise the hull off the lead enough to check the keel bolts and will be able to use it again when I lift again to replace some of the deadwood:



    using two six ton bottle jacks - one either side and just raising them bit by bit evenly to get the height that I wanted.




    The bow was a bit more difficult and I only lifted that once I had stabilised the stern back onto blocks, rather than leaving it on the jacks. The jack at the bow is a 30ton air driven hydraulic jack

    Larks

    “It’s impossible”, said pride.
    “It’s risky”, said experience.
    “It’s pointless”, said reason.
    “Give it a try”, whispered the heart.

    LPBC Beneficiary

    "Keep away from people who try to belittle your ambitions. Small people always do that, but the really great make you feel that you, too, can become great!"

  10. #115
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Port Stephens
    Posts
    25,691

    Default Re: Fiberglass Sheathing a 1962 Carvel Hull

    Now that's impressive!
    Rick

    Lean and nosey like a ferret

  11. #116
    Join Date
    Jun 2017
    Location
    Brisbane Australia
    Posts
    67

    Default Re: Fiberglass Sheathing a 1962 Carvel Hull

    I'm not sure if this was mentioned before, but what would happen if you didn't spline the boat and just left the caulking in when you sheathed it in glass?
    will the hull become unstable when the planks not getting wet shrink? is it to stop any movement in the planks which could lead to delamination?
    I would have thought if you used a heavy enough glass that would have stabilised the planking and hull a fair bit.
    I'm just curious and would like to know more about the reasons behind all the steps, I'm not about to go and do this to a boat.

  12. #117
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Port Stephens
    Posts
    25,691

    Default Re: Fiberglass Sheathing a 1962 Carvel Hull

    Splining limits any movement from tired fastenings etc. Sheathing protects the timber and fastenings, reduces the need for annual antifouling and, if the sheathing is enough, also adds some strength and stiffness to the hull.
    Rick

    Lean and nosey like a ferret

  13. #118
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Location
    Between Bourgeoisie and Proletariat - Australia
    Posts
    7,173

    Default Re: Fiberglass Sheathing a 1962 Carvel Hull

    The video at 'Off Center Harbor' about sheathing a boat touches on it. When the guy routered between the planks the whole boat became loose.

    My interpretation is; the boat depends on the planks swelling, not just to keep the water out, but for structural reasons. Basically it clamps the boat together.
    If the boat isn't going to get wet, ie not clamp itself together, you need to replace that structural aspect.
    Splines do it. Instead of swelling the boat together, they glue it together. they also prevent the planks from moving past each other - stiffens it up - which would break the glass sheathing.

    Or, you can just glass over, but then you'd have to put on enough glass, that the glass is the structure - so you're talking maybe 20mm+ of fiberglass. In effect, you'd be using the existing boat as a plug and building a fiberglass boat outside it.

    The method i am planning is the material of the boat remains integral to its structure. From what I can see the sheathing is mostly about protection, from abrasion and water ingress, not structure.
    It's all fun and games until Darth Vader comes.

  14. #119
    Join Date
    Jul 2002
    Location
    Seattle, WA
    Posts
    9,735

    Default Re: Fiberglass Sheathing a 1962 Carvel Hull

    When putting plastic on your boat fails, as it almost certainly will, please remember that there were those that warned you not to take this course.

  15. #120
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Location
    Between Bourgeoisie and Proletariat - Australia
    Posts
    7,173

    Default Re: Fiberglass Sheathing a 1962 Carvel Hull

    Quote Originally Posted by pcford View Post
    When putting plastic on your boat fails, as it almost certainly will, please remember that there were those that warned you not to take this course.


    I think you should come back and remind me....
    It's all fun and games until Darth Vader comes.

  16. #121
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Location
    Tasmania
    Posts
    807

    Default Re: Fiberglass Sheathing a 1962 Carvel Hull

    Just out of curiosity, if the boat being glassed over is copper roved, could you safely leave the copper in the hull without any future issues?

    Phill

  17. #122
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Location
    Wongawallan Oz
    Posts
    17,024

    Default Re: Fiberglass Sheathing a 1962 Carvel Hull

    Quote Originally Posted by pcford View Post
    When putting plastic on your boat fails, as it almost certainly will, please remember that there were those that warned you not to take this course.
    I’m really interested to know why you are so adamant about this and on what authority you are making this statement, when it has been done so successfully over solid timber hulls (ie no rot) so many times before.....???
    Larks

    “It’s impossible”, said pride.
    “It’s risky”, said experience.
    “It’s pointless”, said reason.
    “Give it a try”, whispered the heart.

    LPBC Beneficiary

    "Keep away from people who try to belittle your ambitions. Small people always do that, but the really great make you feel that you, too, can become great!"

  18. #123
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Location
    Between Bourgeoisie and Proletariat - Australia
    Posts
    7,173

    Default Re: Fiberglass Sheathing a 1962 Carvel Hull

    Quote Originally Posted by mermod View Post
    Just out of curiosity, if the boat being glassed over is copper roved, could you safely leave the copper in the hull without any future issues?

    Phill
    Jeess Phill, i have enough to worry about mate!
    why would it be problematic?
    It's all fun and games until Darth Vader comes.

  19. #124
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Port Stephens
    Posts
    25,691

    Default Re: Fiberglass Sheathing a 1962 Carvel Hull

    I'm curious too. Why would that be a problem?
    Rick

    Lean and nosey like a ferret

  20. #125
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Location
    Tasmania
    Posts
    807

    Default Re: Fiberglass Sheathing a 1962 Carvel Hull

    Quote Originally Posted by RFNK View Post
    I'm curious too. Why would that be a problem?
    Don't get me wrong guys, I'm just asking the question, I have no experience with this and I'm certainly no expert, imagined or otherwise

    Phill

  21. #126
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Port Stephens
    Posts
    25,691

    Default Re: Fiberglass Sheathing a 1962 Carvel Hull

    I'm not being critical, I'm honestly wondering what you might have seen or heard that suggests that copper under sheathing could cause a problem? Loose planking, rot, oil-soaked planking, moist timber - sure, but why copper? But if it's a straight query, then, no, I can't see any reason why the copper fastenings will cause any problem.
    Rick

    Lean and nosey like a ferret

  22. #127
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Location
    Tasmania
    Posts
    807

    Default Re: Fiberglass Sheathing a 1962 Carvel Hull

    Quote Originally Posted by RFNK View Post
    I'm not being critical, I'm honestly wondering what you might have seen or heard that suggests that copper under sheathing could cause a problem? Loose planking, rot, oil-soaked planking, moist timber - sure, but why copper? But if it's a straight query, then, no, I can't see any reason why the copper fastenings will cause any problem.
    No just a straight up question, I'm probably going to have to do it myself so I thought I'd check

  23. #128
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Location
    Wongawallan Oz
    Posts
    17,024

    Default Re: Fiberglass Sheathing a 1962 Carvel Hull

    There’s no reason why the copper fastenings would be any more at risk under glass than they would be in any other circumstances - unless you introduce a cause for galvanic action in the same “confinement" (for want of a better word).

    Gypsy, if you haven’t already seen it here’s a nicely done video on using a router for splining that was posted here but which I’ve only just seen after it was bumped by someone else.

    https://youtu.be/NHyXOGS5NR8

    from this thread http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...-up-a-Folkboat
    Larks

    “It’s impossible”, said pride.
    “It’s risky”, said experience.
    “It’s pointless”, said reason.
    “Give it a try”, whispered the heart.

    LPBC Beneficiary

    "Keep away from people who try to belittle your ambitions. Small people always do that, but the really great make you feel that you, too, can become great!"

  24. #129
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Location
    Between Bourgeoisie and Proletariat - Australia
    Posts
    7,173

    Default Re: Fiberglass Sheathing a 1962 Carvel Hull

    Quote Originally Posted by Larks View Post
    There’s no reason why the copper fastenings would be any more at risk under glass than they would be in any other circumstances - unless you introduce a cause for galvanic action in the same “confinement" (for want of a better word).

    Gypsy, if you haven’t already seen it here’s a nicely done video on using a router for splining that was posted here but which I’ve only just seen after it was bumped by someone else.

    https://youtu.be/NHyXOGS5NR8

    from this thread http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...-up-a-Folkboat
    Beauty Larks - thanks heaps - great reference.

    I must admit, the router is one tool i am not comfortable with.
    It masquerades as a tool of finesse, but they have a mind of their own.
    I've got one fitted to a bench - to which i bring the material - the idea of hand holding it and bringing it to the material..... all i see is broken flesh, scarred timber and lots of blood (and a missing eye). But he makes it look a damn sight easier to wield over head, and at other strange contortions, than a saw. Stopping and starting is probably easier too.
    Last edited by gypsie; 07-01-2020 at 10:50 PM.
    It's all fun and games until Darth Vader comes.

  25. #130
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Location
    Norwalk CT
    Posts
    2,791

    Default Re: Fiberglass Sheathing a 1962 Carvel Hull

    I'd much rather try to hold a small trim router up over my head all day than a skilsaw. The key with using a router for this kind of work is a stable guide for the base to ride against. The guide wants to be opposite the "Working" side of the bit so cutting edges are pushing the router against the guide.

    The guide on the base of the router in the photo is great once you have a slot for it to ride in, but you need that first foot or so.

    Sharp bits are a must. I'd venture you'll go through a couple dozen routing out all the seams on your boat. Caulking compound and old paint are hard on even the best carbide edges.

    A good face shield and mask and a stable work platform will all contribute to your success. This is not a job do be done on a ladder or teetering on sketchy planks laid on old saw horses.

  26. #131
    Join Date
    Jul 2002
    Location
    Seattle, WA
    Posts
    9,735

    Default Re: Fiberglass Sheathing a 1962 Carvel Hull

    Quote Originally Posted by Larks View Post
    I’m really interested to know why you are so adamant about this and on what authority you are making this statement, when it has been done so successfully over solid timber hulls (ie no rot) so many times before.....???
    Well, I have been doing boat restoration for something like forty years. I was the co-founder of the Center for Wooden Boats in Seattle.
    When I see a boat which has been coated with splooge, I consider that the owner who does not have sufficient resources to do the job properly and wants to coax a few more years out of the boat. Thereafter, it will be ready to be sawn up. "'Glass" coating can work if the material is dimensional stable and coated on both sides when building.
    This is evidently not the case in the example offered. This is not only bad practice but...I use the word with consideration...sinful.
    Last edited by pcford; 07-02-2020 at 03:58 PM.

  27. #132
    Join Date
    Sep 2015
    Location
    Whangarei New Zealand
    Posts
    942

    Default Re: Fiberglass Sheathing a 1962 Carvel Hull

    Considering the spline option... it makes sense if there is no intention of using the seams as a bonding aid for the composites sheathing. If on the other hand the frames are sound and there is tension in all of the fastenings, prior filling of the seams with a microfibre/epoxy bog mix, will give the sheathing a more effective bonding area or an improved 'mechanical bond'. Thickness of the sheathing also determines how this is achieved (thicker should be better, like puting on two rather than a single laminate). Then with the first laminate wrapping under the keel, bronze screws fastened through this laminate (into the deadwood and maybe even into the lead ballast), the final laminate makes a sturdy sheathing that has a good grip on the substrate.
    Last edited by Lugalong; 07-02-2020 at 03:42 PM.

  28. #133
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Port Stephens
    Posts
    25,691

    Default Re: Fiberglass Sheathing a 1962 Carvel Hull

    Quote Originally Posted by pcford View Post
    Well, I have been doing boat restoration for something like forty years. I was the co-founder of the Center for Wooden Boats in Seattle.
    When I see a boat which has been coated with splooge, I consider that the owner who does not have sufficient resources to do the job properly and wants to coax a few more years out of the boat. Thereafter, it will be ready to be sawn up. "'Glass" coating can work if the material is dimensional stable and coated on both sides when building.
    This is evidently not the case in the example offered. This is not only bad practice but...I use the word with consideration...sinful.
    That is simply nonsense. I just don't understand how people can work on boats for umpteen years yet still ignore the evidence all around them. The vast majority of boats sheathed in glass do not have sheathing inside. They do not generally rot at all and the sheathing on the outside does not generally laminate. To extrapolate the poor outcomes from sheathing over rotten, loose planking, often done poorly and with inappropriate materials, to all restorative sheathing is simply ignorant and irresponsible. Gypsie will sheathe his boat properly and it will keep a beautiful boat going for very many years. The alternative is to let old planking, fastenings and frames deteriorate to the point where a new hull will be needed. To reconstruct this boat's hull would cost over $100,000. Some people seem to think that well, if you can't afford that, you shouldn't have a boat. What nonsense! Fortunately we have alternatives now. People should dump their prejudices and let people who actually take the time and money to keep lovely boats alive, for their families rather than a museum, get on with it.
    Rick

    Lean and nosey like a ferret

  29. #134
    Join Date
    Sep 2015
    Location
    Whangarei New Zealand
    Posts
    942

    Default Re: Fiberglass Sheathing a 1962 Carvel Hull

    As a 'control case' I cite the owner of a 50 YO classic sloop, who was having difficulty keeping the boat afloat and who has had 20 years of continuous us of the boat since sheathing with epoxy/glass. Granted, this boat has done away with a rig that imposes high loads in the way of mast compression along with shroud and stay tension that might otherwise had stress implications to alter the results..... which is something to be considered up front in the planning of such sheathing.

  30. #135
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Vancouver Island
    Posts
    2,393

    Default Re: Fiberglass Sheathing a 1962 Carvel Hull

    "That is simply nonsense. I just don't understand how people can work on boats for umpteen years yet still ignore the evidence all around them. The vast majority of boats sheathed in glass do not have sheathing inside."

    To be fair Rick, he didn't say that they did. Sealed is not sheathed; Gypsie will not be able to sheath the inside of his boat and highly unlikely to come close to sealing it either, other than at additional great effort.. This would be a major drawback to his intended course of action here in the PNW. You may get away with it in Aus because your relative humidity is stable within a very acceptable range. That is not the case up here.

    There is much to be learned from threads like this, if we could only shed the blinkers surrounding our regional differences. Carry on please, but try to drop the attitude, if you can. / Jim

  31. #136

    Default Re: Fiberglass Sheathing a 1962 Carvel Hull

    Nice old boat. Too bad the glass will seal its fate.
    Wooden boats are like shingles, recurring, and often painful.

  32. #137

    Default Re: Fiberglass Sheathing a 1962 Carvel Hull

    Quote Originally Posted by RFNK View Post
    That is simply nonsense. I just don't understand how people can work on boats for umpteen years yet still ignore the evidence all around them. The vast majority of boats sheathed in glass do not have sheathing inside. They do not generally rot at all and the sheathing on the outside does not generally laminate. To extrapolate the poor outcomes from sheathing over rotten, loose planking, often done poorly and with inappropriate materials, to all restorative sheathing is simply ignorant and irresponsible. Gypsie will sheathe his boat properly and it will keep a beautiful boat going for very many years. The alternative is to let old planking, fastenings and frames deteriorate to the point where a new hull will be needed. To reconstruct this boat's hull would cost over $100,000. Some people seem to think that well, if you can't afford that, you shouldn't have a boat. What nonsense! Fortunately we have alternatives now. People should dump their prejudices and let people who actually take the time and money to keep lovely boats alive, for their families rather than a museum, get on with it.
    Oh, it is definitely an alternative, but on an old boat, as opposed to a new build, it is death, so as long as the owner is happy with 6 to 8 years of use, while the boat structurally declines in the meantime, have at it. I don't care, it isn't my boat. I'm like Pat Ford, I don't know much about wooden boats, so I should leave it all to the experts on this forum. Cheers!
    Wooden boats are like shingles, recurring, and often painful.

  33. #138
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Port Stephens
    Posts
    25,691

    Default Re: Fiberglass Sheathing a 1962 Carvel Hull

    So, Peter, how do you account for all the older boats that have been sheathed successfully? Divine intervention? A miracle - what? I am so over people claiming to be experts telling us that things that have clearly worked well for many decades, because they've been done properly, won't work!
    Rick

    Lean and nosey like a ferret

  34. #139

    Default Re: Fiberglass Sheathing a 1962 Carvel Hull

    Quote Originally Posted by RFNK View Post
    So, Peter, how do you account for all the older boats that have been sheathed successfully? Divine intervention? A miracle - what? I am so over people claiming to be experts telling us that things that have clearly worked well for many decades, because they've been done properly, won't work!

    Give me a good survey on a boat like this after 6-8 years, from a respected surveyor, and we will talk. As I said, I don't know much about wooden boats, but I think I will stick with my current lack of understanding. Cheers, I have already posted too much here.... been a couple of years, and it needs to be a couple of more.
    Wooden boats are like shingles, recurring, and often painful.

  35. #140
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Port Stephens
    Posts
    25,691

    Default Re: Fiberglass Sheathing a 1962 Carvel Hull

    Our good friend and excellent marine surveyor/shipwright/boatbuilding instructor died three weeks ago or I would happily approach him for examples. Otherwise, how do you suggest gathering a set that would convince you? I mean, really, we point out that there are plenty of boats that have been sheathed successfully and you take this as an attack on your credibility, or what? You say the method doesn't work but we know it does because we know some of those boats. Is Lugalong lying? Am I lying? Why would we do that? This thread is about how to sheathe a hull properly - what are the methods that actually work? But you and Ford turn it into the same old pointless namecalling claptrap - armchair experts etc. Why?
    Rick

    Lean and nosey like a ferret

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •