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Thread: Fiberglass Sheathing a 1962 Carvel Hull

  1. #946
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    Default Re: Fiberglass Sheathing a 1962 Carvel Hull

    Quote Originally Posted by RFNK View Post
    Yes, I don't think the shaft goes far into the rudder, if at all. I hadn't thought of there being some sort of sheer pin or bolt through the shaft to hold the shaft into that strap fitting on the rudder. It seems to me that the strap fitting will be able to be removed without too much drama, if necessary. It might even be a simple case of replacing the pin or bolt, if there was one, and not needing really to remove either the strap fitting or the shaft. Have you tried lifting the tiller to see if it will pull the shaft upwards?

    You know, it could even be worth donning a wetsuit and some weights and checking it out in the water. Get someone to move the tiller and see what's operational and what isn't, and see if there's broken casting or welding, or a hole where a bolt or pin ought to be.
    Yes - I've been thinking of dropping in myself.
    Either way it needs to come out to be repaired. I could be forearmed, so there is some advantage.... But even at that until the paint and everything is ground back for a proper look, its just guess work.

    No - the rudder post doesn't move vertically. I didn't put my heart into it, but there was no indication of any vertical movement.
    It's all fun and games until Darth Vader comes.

  2. #947
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    Default Re: Fiberglass Sheathing a 1962 Carvel Hull

    Id be mighty tempted to try a little harder to pull the rudder post up and out. Maybe rig a small block and tackle from the boom, or a simple trypod? Assuming it's parted somewhere between the tiller and the rudder head, what would be holding it in place? Is there a thrust bearing down there?

  3. #948
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    Default Re: Fiberglass Sheathing a 1962 Carvel Hull

    I'd be reluctant to pull it out of the rudder while the boat's still in the water as then all the weight of the rudder, and any forces, will be borne by the lower fitting.

    I think the advantage of jumping in would be not only that you might see where any pin or bolt should be but you can also check that the rudder is still held at the top. If it isn't, you could wreck the lower fitting simply by leaving the boat in the water.
    Rick

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  4. #949
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    Default Re: Fiberglass Sheathing a 1962 Carvel Hull

    Yeah, you're right, dont so that. I guess I missed the fact there was no upper fitting....dumb idea.

  5. #950
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    Default Re: Fiberglass Sheathing a 1962 Carvel Hull

    Gopro on a boat hook could well be an option to assess the rudder.
    174EDE31-4337-45C7-8E32-5D7006F2B5C3.jpg

  6. #951
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    Default Re: Fiberglass Sheathing a 1962 Carvel Hull

    How is the tiller connected to the rudder shaft? The reason I ask is that I experienced the same situation years ago when I had my trimaran.
    In my case it turned out that the tiller fitting was held to the shaft by a pair of stainless pinch bolts that had stretched and let go, there was no keyway there. It was hard to see.
    I realise that it is unlikely that you will have the same arrangement, but thought it worth a mention just in case.
    There is nothing quite as permanent as a good temporary repair.

  7. #952
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    Default Re: Fiberglass Sheathing a 1962 Carvel Hull

    Thanks Stilletto, the rudder shaft is keyed into the tiller head.

    Here it is before removal for the new deck (tiller off).
    IMG_5126.jpg

    Solid rod of steel from there down to the rudder.
    It's all fun and games until Darth Vader comes.

  8. #953
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    Default Re: Fiberglass Sheathing a 1962 Carvel Hull

    That is a hell of a lot more substantial than what my Tri had!
    There is nothing quite as permanent as a good temporary repair.

  9. #954
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    Default Re: Fiberglass Sheathing a 1962 Carvel Hull

    Yeah its pretty butch, and that (maybe 28mm or 30mm) of steel rod goes through into the rudder.

    I'm thinking through options.
    I am thinking - perhaps - maybe - get in the water (see if i can diagnose while I'm there) insert an M6 bolt with an eye on each side through the rudder. Use those eye's to attach straps so i can steer from the deck. Sail her round to Ulladulla where the fishermen pull out their boats and go at it one way or another.

    I'm doing a bit of a dance because I'm aiming for insurance to cover the costs - but they're already talking about old age, wear and tear and so forth. Also, their way is the most expensive route which if i follow, and their assessment is its not a claim, those costs are mine.

    Then again - if she does land back in the yard and i have to cop the costs - there is a spray dodger that could be upgraded, and maybe a few other bits and pieces.
    It's all fun and games until Darth Vader comes.

  10. #955
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    Default Re: Fiberglass Sheathing a 1962 Carvel Hull

    Got in the water - not as cold as i thought.
    Beautiful day and gorgeous sailing conditions. Wind was strong, W to NW, but a fully reefed main would have been a lovely way to sail away a day.

    A couple of Tall Ships seeing out the blow.
    I didn't get up close but I think the Southern Swan (closer) and the brigantine is the Coral Trekker.

    IMG_8934.jpg


    Anyhooo - gave the rudder a wiggle.

    There's no sign or hint of anything i can spot superficially.
    In the drawing, part A and Part B are locked together, though i think they are separate pieces. The rudder inserts through the sleeve (A) - and these are no locked together.
    Rudder is still fully attached to the boat - no additional strain on the lower fitting.

    Problem is internal, probably under the question mark.

    IMG_8942.jpg

    The rudder is fully sheathed in 2 layers of 450g glass. Bit of itchy grinding in the future.
    Then a look at how the rudder is fastened to the post - I will go with a first guess at a pin through the assembly, second, not as nice a guess, a key has dropped out, or worn/torn somehow.
    It's all fun and games until Darth Vader comes.

  11. #956
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    Default Re: Fiberglass Sheathing a 1962 Carvel Hull

    Found a slightly better pic of the rudder.

    Screenshot 2022-09-19 121537.jpg
    It's all fun and games until Darth Vader comes.

  12. #957
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    Default Re: Fiberglass Sheathing a 1962 Carvel Hull

    I can’t offer any advice Trev’, I’m just hanging around here waiting to see the outcome when you get her out ion the water..
    Larks

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  13. #958
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    Default Re: Fiberglass Sheathing a 1962 Carvel Hull

    I think one of your guesses will be right. The key or pin could even be mild steel, designed to be replaced every so often in a maintenance schedule. These boats were built for wealthy people - the Farr 40 or TP 52 of their day.

    The good news, of course, is that you can tow the boat or whatever now without worrying about breaking off the lower rudder fitting or losing the rudder.
    Rick

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  14. #959
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    Default Re: Fiberglass Sheathing a 1962 Carvel Hull

    Quote Originally Posted by RFNK View Post
    These boats were built for wealthy people ........
    Don't get me started


    I checked in with someone i thought would have some insights.
    His opinion is almost certainly a keyway. The parts A and B are either cast together (I don't think so) or fabricated together, more likely.

    In which case the stock should lift up through the boat....
    Confusing thing for me there is - what's keeping it down? The gland at the hull, above the water line, is not a stuffing gland, there's minimum friction - just a big helping of grease to stop water ingress.

    If the stock is pulled up, the rudder is 100% on the lower fitting.

    Like you Greg - I'm pretty keen to see what outcome i achieve too. Pop corn on the stove, I'll be watching this thread with interest..
    It's all fun and games until Darth Vader comes.

  15. #960
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    Default Re: Fiberglass Sheathing a 1962 Carvel Hull

    Anyone conceive of a tool to pull the rudder stock upwards?
    With the tiller attached i'd have something to grab. But maybe there's a tool that can grab the stock directly....?
    It's all fun and games until Darth Vader comes.

  16. #961
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    Default Re: Fiberglass Sheathing a 1962 Carvel Hull

    If there's a key then there is a nut inside part B tightening the shaft against part A. Both parts were certainly cast as one piece, they didn't weld bronze when the boat was buildt.

    Look at the photo in #221 http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...progress/page7 it's the same arrangement, just hidden, the nut sits in a cutout in the wood.

  17. #962
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    Default Re: Fiberglass Sheathing a 1962 Carvel Hull

    .....am thinking - perhaps - maybe - get in the water (see if i can diagnose while I'm there) insert an M6 bolt with an eye on each side through the rudder. Use those eye's to attach straps so i can steer from the deck. Sail her round to Ulladulla where the fishermen pull out their boats and go at it one way or another.

    Perhaps a 'c' clamp on the rudder blade to attach steering lines.
    Once upon a time some off shore safety inspectors required a hole near the trailing edge of the rudder blade .

  18. #963
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    Default Re: Fiberglass Sheathing a 1962 Carvel Hull

    Quote Originally Posted by Rumars View Post
    If there's a key then there is a nut inside part B tightening the shaft against part A. Both parts were certainly cast as one piece, they didn't weld bronze when the boat was buildt.

    Look at the photo in #221 http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...progress/page7 it's the same arrangement, just hidden, the nut sits in a cutout in the wood.
    I think you may have nailed it Rumars.
    There is a large, 25mm+ plug in the leading edge of the rudder just at that point.
    It was working its way out when i last tended to it. In my head it was the base of a tie rod going through the rudder staves. It could very well be what you describe.

    Also explains whats preventing the shaft from lifting out.
    It's all fun and games until Darth Vader comes.

  19. #964
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    Default Re: Fiberglass Sheathing a 1962 Carvel Hull

    Well - the shaft is a single piece of 25mm (1") steel, al the way from the tiler to the base of the rudder - and passes through the gudgeon.

    It snapped, very roughly, about 50mm up from the rudder, right inside the through hull gland.

    Shaft Snap 2.jpg

    I've asked the local shipwright to repair.
    To get the shaft out of the rudder requires the rudder's destruction - and necessary remake. He'll look after this and the reinstallation while i get on and do the bottom, redo the topside paint and touch up the brightwork on deck.

    After which, she'll be going on Boats for Sale.
    I can't continue to justify the costs of keeping a boat that we just don't use. Its a drain on the purse and emotionally.

    The decision does allow me to dream a bit big on these plans i bought a few years back (Don Kurylko's Myst).
    D18.jpg
    It's all fun and games until Darth Vader comes.

  20. #965
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    Default Re: Fiberglass Sheathing a 1962 Carvel Hull

    Oh!

    My first preference would be to find someone who is interested in taking stewardship of a vessel like this, rather than throw it into the wilds.
    If anyone has any leads or wishes to share my contact please PM me.

    I'll draft up a inventory, plus a list of all the work carried out over the last few years and i have an 11 month old survey that is still accurate.
    She is also currently on the hard for another 10 days.

    Did i just break a rule?
    It's all fun and games until Darth Vader comes.

  21. #966
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    Default Re: Fiberglass Sheathing a 1962 Carvel Hull

    Okay. Well, it would be dead easy and inexpensive to make a new rudder from foam and glass. Light, strong, easy. I'd use a bronze rod for the new shaft. Your break looks like a classic example of crevice corrosion. I bet the shaft is stainless steel.

    If I didn't have Masina, I'd buy your boat, especially knowing all the work you put into splining and sheathing. I'm sorry to hear you're selling and hoping you change your mind. But whoever gets your boat will be getting a great deal.
    Rick

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  22. #967
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    Default Re: Fiberglass Sheathing a 1962 Carvel Hull

    Quote Originally Posted by RFNK View Post
    Okay. Well, it would be dead easy and inexpensive to make a new rudder from foam and glass. Light, strong, easy. I'd use a bronze rod for the new shaft. Your break looks like a classic example of crevice corrosion. I bet the shaft is stainless steel.

    If I didn't have Masina, I'd buy your boat, especially knowing all the work you put into splining and sheathing. I'm sorry to hear you're selling and hoping you change your mind. But whoever gets your boat will be getting a great deal.
    Thanks Rick.

    The break is above the water so I wondered about corrosion v poor repair. Yes - I am sure it is SS.
    It's all fun and games until Darth Vader comes.

  23. #968
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    Default Re: Fiberglass Sheathing a 1962 Carvel Hull

    Well you know what they say about the two happiest days in a boat owners life - the day you bought it and the day you sold it.

    I can fully understand your reasons for selling her, though I can’t imagine that you’ve made the decision easily. Regardless, I’ll look forward to following your new build when you get to it.
    Larks

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    “It’s pointless”, said reason.
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  24. #969
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    Default Re: Fiberglass Sheathing a 1962 Carvel Hull

    Quote Originally Posted by gypsie View Post
    Thanks Rick.

    The break is above the water so I wondered about corrosion v poor repair. Yes - I am sure it is SS.
    Crevice corrosion is a particular problem in stainless steel and can be almost mysterious. Corrosion of prop shafts inside bearings and glands is not uncommon. It's one of the key reasons to have an anode on a SS prop shaft, for example. Your rudder shaft probably should have had one. But I'd replace it with bronze which should prevent any corrosion from occurring again.
    Rick

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  25. #970
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    Default Re: Fiberglass Sheathing a 1962 Carvel Hull

    sonofa beach,never seen that beforejuskidding

    I have a friend ,just left Marthas Vineyard for the Caribee...had to turnaround, lost rudder.
    No injuries but have not heard what drama transpired to get her back. 50 foot yawl,recently underwent a million dollar tune up at Gannon /Benjamin
    I suspect it's just a screwy thing like this.
    this is why I like simple over easy for a cruising boat
    Last edited by wizbang 13; 11-15-2022 at 09:48 AM.

  26. #971
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    Default Re: Fiberglass Sheathing a 1962 Carvel Hull

    Never thought of the zinc on the rudder shaft.
    I'm planing to pull the prop shaft this week for a peek. As the rudder is off it's a matter of some bolts at the motor. Freakin awkward spot for 6'4" string bean to get into. But, if I don't the thing'll crack as I motor up the river.
    It's all fun and games until Darth Vader comes.

  27. #972
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    Default Re: Fiberglass Sheathing a 1962 Carvel Hull

    Transom mounted makes sense in sooo many ways.
    It's all fun and games until Darth Vader comes.

  28. #973
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    Default Re: Fiberglass Sheathing a 1962 Carvel Hull

    She's looking spiffing with her new paint job.
    PU 2 pack on topsides, Micron 2 under. New touch up of the brightwork, Cetol Teak.

    Screenshot 2022-11-21 135859.jpg

    Here's the bit without the rudder.

    Screenshot 2022-11-21 135923.jpg

    Naming - I've never had the name displayed except on the AIS. Danu btw, goddess of rivers and the sea.

    I got a local printer to mock up a version, but i think its too informal.
    Or its just my anticipated regret......
    Any opinions out there?

    Screenshot 2022-11-21 135833.jpg

    Screenshot 2022-11-21 135954.jpg


    Came across this; https://yachthub.com/list/yachts-for...seabird/277311
    It's all fun and games until Darth Vader comes.

  29. #974
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    Default Re: Fiberglass Sheathing a 1962 Carvel Hull

    I like it.
    Rick

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  30. #975
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    Default Re: Fiberglass Sheathing a 1962 Carvel Hull

    That Seabird certainly presents well in the photos! Long way to go for a look ....
    Rick

    Lean and nosey like a ferret

  31. #976
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    Default Re: Fiberglass Sheathing a 1962 Carvel Hull

    It's a beautiful nane, but it cannot be easily read from a bouncing boat with binocs from a distance
    practicality strikes again

  32. #977
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    Default Re: Fiberglass Sheathing a 1962 Carvel Hull

    Epoxy set glass sheathing can work but boats that were sheathed with dual-diagonal wood fare better.

    accommodated was plank on frame. He seams were all reefed and soft wood splines set in, epoxy on both sides. The splines accomodated shrinkage and expansion of the planks. She was epoxy sealed inside and out but epoxy is vapor permiable so there was a little movement. Not much and not a problem.

    Based on that experience, I'd give some thought to splining and epoxy sealing but not sheathing.

  33. #978
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    Default Re: Fiberglass Sheathing a 1962 Carvel Hull

    Quote Originally Posted by wizbang 13 View Post
    It's a beautiful nane, but it cannot be easily read from a bouncing boat with binocs from a distance
    practicality strikes again
    The name on the transom is low so that makes it harder to read. Obviously that's to accommodate the plate. I'd leave it because it probably doesn't matter but you could paint the plate white and put a bigger name across it.

    Convention has the port or country of registration below the name on the transom but for a local boat it's not necessary.
    Rick

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  34. #979
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    Default Re: Fiberglass Sheathing a 1962 Carvel Hull

    Quote Originally Posted by Ian McColgin View Post
    Epoxy set glass sheathing can work but boats that were sheathed with dual-diagonal wood fare better.

    accommodated was plank on frame. He seams were all reefed and soft wood splines set in, epoxy on both sides. The splines accomodated shrinkage and expansion of the planks. She was epoxy sealed inside and out but epoxy is vapor permiable so there was a little movement. Not much and not a problem.

    Based on that experience, I'd give some thought to splining and epoxy sealing but not sheathing.
    Sorry Ian, but, as the owner of a strip planked timber boat that was sheathed, with woven glass and epoxy 50 years ago, with no problem with the sheathing in all that time, I do have to laugh a bit at the incessant condemnation of sheathing. With all the issues we now have with worms, environmental concerns with antifouling and the accelerating costs of haulouts, I think anyone with a wooden boat that doesn't sheath it properly is stubborn or crazy.

    In about 30 years of restoring boats and examining many boats, I haven't seen sheathing ever cause a problem. I've seen glass laid over crap, sure, but all the problems I've seen, in the main, are caused by inadequate protection from fresh water. Usually laid decks, teak strips on laid or plywood decks, or glassed decks left with exposed edges. I've seen a lot of carvel boats scrapped due to failed fastenings, smashed seams and worm damage.
    Rick

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  35. #980
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    Default Re: Fiberglass Sheathing a 1962 Carvel Hull

    One nice thing about the rudder removal is it has required a 'destruction test' on the glassing.
    I was worried most about this area. The curves were extreme, the shapes especially in the tuck of the bilge threw the cloth in all kinds of angles.

    It is stuck like the proverbial. I couldn't have asked for a better adhesion. If its this good here, its good everywhere.

    glass.jpg
    It's all fun and games until Darth Vader comes.

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