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Thread: A pirate ship for the new age.

  1. #36
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    Default Re: A pirate ship for the new age.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob Cleek View Post
    I don't envy you at all, Jay. It's often very difficult "to speak truth to power" when the "power" is a client with a wad of cash in his pocket and strong opinions on what he wants. It's unfortunate that he has his heart set on a brig of that size. It doesn't take an MIT graduate to know that rig in that size isn't going to sail worth a damn and, given its shallow draft, lack of windward ability, and excessive top hamper, isn't going to be all that seaworthy, either. (You don't have to say that. I have the luxury of doing so because it's not my rice bowl.) I never understand the desire of so many to try to reinvent the wheel. There are lots of good designs to pick from and customize to one's own good taste. I wonder if he wouldn't reconsider defining his parameters in terms of performance and utility instead of his fantasy of what a "pirate ship" looked like. After all, the real pirates and slavers were more interested in speed and windward ability than anything else because their lives depended on outrunning larger square rigged vessels. For this reason, they were very partial to the Baltimore Clipper style of vessel.

    In square rig, as in schooners, "size matters." 35' is better than 28', 35' being about the smallest reasonable size for a schooner. For square sails to be worth the trouble, aside from just being something to play with downwind in the trades, I don't see anything smaller than 45" or 50" in a square topsail schooner. If I were in his shoes, I'd be taking a hard look at some of Murray Peterson's Coasters or Pete Culler's Lizard King (See: Pete Culler's Boats, PP. 366-371. IIRC, Lizard King as designed carries a square topsail. She's as close to what most real pirate ships looked like as anything else.

    Anyway, it's his money to spend as he wishes. Just be sure to but a big "iron spinnaker" in it!
    Bob;

    In all honesty, Fang sails just fine, goes to windward, and has the look and feel we wanted. We have had professional sailors aboard that smile in surprise at how handy She performs. What Jay is doing is simply enlarging and improving on Her. His suggestions improved Fang’s initial performance nicely, so I have confidence a larger one will only perform better.

    Have a great day.

  2. #37
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    Default Re: A pirate ship for the new age.



    Please, please, please, get the mainmast & spanker gaff right this time.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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  3. #38
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    Default Re: A pirate ship for the new age.

    Yes indeed Mike! What you built there is a work of art! As most of us know, often making a dream a reality usually takes a bit of modification to the dream in order to make it work!
    Jay

  4. #39
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    Default Re: A pirate ship for the new age.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jay Greer View Post
    Since the boat will be sailed in Florida, shallow draft is necessary so, a centerboard will most likely be used. Stability is a major factor here and is of great concern. She will be rigging her with carbon fiber spars, booms and yards in order to keep the top hamper light!
    Roller reefing for the squares will cut down on having to go aloft and simplify dousing sail in a hurry. All manner of safety precautions will be considered on this one!
    Jay
    HMS Lady Nelson was but;t as a shallow draft small ship for surveying thin water. She had 3 "sliding keels",centreboards really.
    Thought the info might be of use Jay,


  5. #40
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    Default Re: A pirate ship for the new age.

    Quote Originally Posted by mmd View Post
    What is the sparred length?

    That certainly is a bowsprit to warm the cockles of Pless's heart! <grin>
    The sparred length is immaterial at this time as that will come after the final dimensions of the boat are locked in. But thank you for your interest in it mmd.
    Jay

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    Default Re: A pirate ship for the new age.

    If you ship the rudder outboard could you fit in a 'captains cabin'?
    Complete with windows.....
    Arrrrrr
    It's all fun and games until Darth Vader comes.

  7. #42
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    Default Re: A pirate ship for the new age.

    Jay

    Re brailing the square sails. If the sails are made with flexible horizontal but stiff vertically battens then they could be brailed up without the usual bagginess. Think fully battened mains on a bermudian rig. Could well be easier that vertical roller reefing and certainly less weight aloft.

    Nick

  8. #43
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    Default Re: A pirate ship for the new age.

    Quote Originally Posted by gypsie View Post
    If you ship the rudder outboard could you fit in a 'captains cabin'?
    Complete with windows.....
    Arrrrrr
    Out present (smaller than the one Jay is designing) has a pretty cool Captain’s cabin that sleeps 2 Pirates, as long as they are not over 6’ 2”! Also has a tiny galley for popcorn for the kids.
    89ACE5A2-4D21-4FBB-A528-1BFCBAD5D86C.jpgCED583F7-D3B6-41DA-8520-D405961DA395.jpg

  9. #44
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    Default Re: A pirate ship for the new age.

    Well, "Lady Nelson" looks impressive but I fear that when scaled down she won't go to weather at all! It does take a bit of a fore and aft rig such as the Baltimore Clippers had. One of the schooners in the first trans Atlantic race was a centerboarder and she crossed the Atlantic Ocean in December during the worst weather that can be dished out by Aolis so that does not worry me. But, size does matter. The "Vesta" was 110 Feet on deck and had 20feet ten inches of beam, and she was a centerboarder!

  10. #45
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    Default Re: A pirate ship for the new age.

    I see no reason to knock anyone for voicing an opinion here as we are all here to share knowledge and I appreciate all of your input!
    In the seventy plus years I have been working in wood for a living by building, repairing and designing wooden boats, I still find truths I have overlooked in the past so don't feel you are bothering me, heck I might even learn someting new! So, thank you very much for you comments!
    I have made the half inch to the foot deck study model to allow all who are of interest here to gain some insight into deck layout for economy of space. I have placed ten 1/2inch scale figures that tell without words that either this twenty eight footer needs to be enlarged or a few less people need to be carried! One major factor here is overloading that which could be dangerous on a windy day. This many people can make a sail boat difficult to handle to say the least! Ok if at anchor or tied to the dock but not good for being underway! The max I would consider would be five persons or six in a pinch. I wouldn't want the Coast Guard to be breathing down my neck for that matter or the Harbor Department either as well! So, this is one reason a model is still a great design aid. I allows one to see, touch and feel that which is being thought of or sought out. Making a model is one of the best forms of design aid I know of and that is why, even today, models are made of new automotive designs and models are made of aircraft and launch pads for space exploration as well as rockets! A model is a great design aid!
    Jay

  11. #46
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    Default Re: A pirate ship for the new age.


  12. #47
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    Default Re: A pirate ship for the new age.

    We're all in it for the fun. If a bit of whimsy increases the fun for some, that is just as valid as a more serious boat. As long as its safe, which I'm sure it will be.

  13. #48
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    Default Re: A pirate ship for the new age.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jay Greer View Post
    You are right on Rumars, That is why we are designing vertical reefing of the squares. This will cause the sails to be bifurcated and will place them, when furled against the mast. Actually this will also make the square sails in to two panels rather than one and will cut down on down wind oscillation of the boat as it rolls when sailing dead down wind and will be lighter than a window shade style of roller reefing. In this manner the reefing of the square sails is much more aerodynamic and takes the place of added studding sails.

    We are also using Dyneema cordage for rigging as well as running rigging which coupled with the light spar weight will be lighter than similar rigs of the past. This one has really been a head scratcher and we are still searching for a light weight but bendible material to make the bullworks from. So, if any of you know of a new super light material that can satisfy that need, I am all eyes and ears to hear about it!
    Jay
    For the vertical reefing I think the best way is to use a sock from below. Brail the mainsail then send up a sock over it wich is fastened to the mast with hoops or bands. This way the sail is gathered and protected from the sun. This system is used on some racing boats for rolled jibs instead of sewing sunbrella on the edges.

    When it comes to weight one has to forget the wooden boatbuilder pride and accept that foam cored fiberglass is king. Make the deck and bullwarks out of it, this will allow you to lower the CG of the entire hull. If you need them to look wooden a light veneer can be put over the glass skin. If you want something children friendly you can glue PET foam (evazote) to it, that will cushion impacts.

    Instead of deciding between bilge keels and centerboard you could use twin offset ballasted centerboards. This way you have the anti rolling effect of bilge keels and the draft reduction of centerboards without affecting the interior much. Think of it as a pair of leeboards mounted just inside the vessels skin.

    Towing: the boat should not be more than 10ft wide since over it a lot of states will require escort vehicles, while under this limit it is mostly a simple permit for a few bucks. Depending on total height of the upright boat, a 10ft wide boat could be transported tilted on the trailer to fit the legal limit (special trailer).
    Last edited by Rumars; 06-13-2020 at 09:07 PM.

  14. #49
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    Default Re: A pirate ship for the new age.

    Quote Originally Posted by Phil Y View Post

    This thing is a travesty. It's some cheap tart dressed up in a crazy costume at a country show. This is like seeing the artistic director of a classical ballet company turn to stand up comedy.

    The average sailor of fiberglass boats looks at gaff, sprit or almost any traditional rig on a wooden hull that’s fallen out of favor a hundred years ago and feels much such way. I feel that way when I see certain fiberglass boats dressed up as a Volvo 70 and used as nothing more than cocktail cruisers. My point is while some here make their living from boats I haven’t come across anyone on the forum who uses a boat to make their living. A sailboat is an inherently impractical thing in our times. One that gets a family excited to be out on the water is most important attribute it can have. Fun is the whole point.

    From a personal perspective I’d love to be sailing and come across this. Throw in a proa and a three masted junk and I’d have my dream day on the water.

  15. #50
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    Default Re: A pirate ship for the new age.

    Quote Originally Posted by J.Madison View Post
    We're all in it for the fun. If a bit of whimsy increases the fun for some, that is just as valid as a more serious boat. As long as its safe, which I'm sure it will be.
    You’ve captured it perfectly, and I appreciate the comments; The goal is memories, fun, and a good, safe time for all. Our goal has never been to build a conventional, modern Sailboat that is optimized with all the knowledge of the past 100+ years. We wanted to capture the fun, nostalgia, and magic of the 17th century pirate age, all of its glorious imperfections (how did those Spanish Galleons fare again when sailing to windward?&#128516, and couldn’t care less about trying to get that extra knot of speed, or that last point to windward. It is simply a difference in opinions, and priorities.

    Fang was a great first build, and has brought our family, friends, and neighbors many afternoons and evenings of joy sailing along at 4 knots in a light breeze. She’ll even go to windward somewhat respectfully, and that more than makes us happy. By consciously sacrificing on the modern performance designs, the positive non-measurable benefits are many. How many other “proper” sailboats have their kids’ friends asking for a ride around the lake, and then show up in costumes with mugs full of fake rum and plastic swords? I can tell you that never happened with our last sailboat! There’s even a weekly boat race, and the residents are adding a “Pirate ship” category just so we can officially participate, (sort of)! It is, and always has been, about the fun and fantasy of it all.

    This new one that Jay is helping design is a step up in every way from Fang (which has just a ton of endearing flaws that any first time builder could relate to easily), and that’s the goal. He’s been super cool and patient about explaining all of the compromises and benefits of each aspect, and we’ve had some good laughs during the process.

    I do respect all posters comments here, always, but to call something that’s a bit different and unique from the norm, that your kids have wanted all of their childhoods, “a travesty” (not you, J.Madison), just because it doesn’t fit into “their box“....well, that’s kind of a sad thing. That’s all I’ll say on that topic.

    Have a great evening everyone. I realize not all will agree with our dreams and goals for a bigger and better Pirate ship because it’s different, and that’s ok! I guarantee it won’t dampen our enthusiasm!

    Can’t wait to get started.

  16. #51
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    Default Re: A pirate ship for the new age.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jfitzger View Post
    The average sailor of fiberglass boats looks at gaff, sprit or almost any traditional rig on a wooden hull that’s fallen out of favor a hundred years ago and feels much such way. I feel that way when I see certain fiberglass boats dressed up as a Volvo 70 and used as nothing more than cocktail cruisers. My point is while some here make their living from boats I haven’t come across anyone on the forum who uses a boat to make their living. A sailboat is an inherently impractical thing in our times. One that gets a family excited to be out on the water is most important attribute it can have. Fun is the whole point.

    From a personal perspective I’d love to be sailing and come across this. Throw in a proa and a three masted junk and I’d have my dream day on the water.
    Thanks, Jfitzger! If you run into us, there will be a glass of Rum, Grog, or other favorite beverage of choice waiting for you! Just try not to knock off the gunport lids when you tie up alongside!
    Last edited by lothar4550; 06-13-2020 at 09:51 PM.

  17. #52
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    Default Re: A pirate ship for the new age.

    Man, I've sailed Brigs and Baltimore clippers both as a professional. And as a professional I can tell you they are both dumb and don't make any sense beyond that they are fun and make people happy. Seems like if your 30 foot brig makes you happy it's just as practical as either the 120 or 180 foot one I've worked on.

  18. #53
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    Default Re: A pirate ship for the new age.

    Quote Originally Posted by Phil Y View Post
    I'll just say my horror is more about Jay designing the boat, than the boat itself. And in truth I'm jesting. I reckon you'll have a ball, and with Jay on the case it will actually be a pretty decent boat. Carry on and sorry I offended.

    Sent from my CPH1851 using Tapatalk
    Phil;

    No worries. I am also selfishly going to want to ask for more up-front advice this time during the building process; especially from guys like you if you are willing. Areas like planking are going to be first time on the job learning for me, as the previous boats we have done all were plywood hulls. With Fang I went 90% off of boat building books‘ advice, and maybe 10% from Woodenboatforum Members. This time it will hopefully be about 50/50, as it is so much more efficient and fun to throw a real time problem or question on here for comments/advice.

    Enjoy your Sunday!
    Last edited by lothar4550; 06-14-2020 at 11:17 AM.

  19. #54
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    Default Re: A pirate ship for the new age.

    The realization of this design for lothar has been an enjoyable challenge for me as here is a boat that has some very unusual requirements and restrictions! Having hauled all manner of vessels from coast to coast allows me to understand how to do it most efficiently with the least amount of hassle! Get a pro! Your insurance company will appreciate that and in the long run it will be much easier than hauling it with your own rig! The main challenge is having a boat that can be comfortable scaled down from a lager proven hull form and proper sail plan as this form of boat is still manned by and carrys full sized people that are not scaled down to the size of the boat. The compromise lays in designing a boat that refuses to not get out of her own way due the the windage of her rig most annoying is the fact that such a boat will not properly answer her helm under light or other certain wind conditions. So, here, size does matter! A tiny scaled down brig will not cut the mustard!! Having sailed on James Cagney's Swift of Ipswich with her brigantine rig told me at an early age what works and what does not work! Here is a picture of the Swift that I have in the entry hall of my home in Port Townsend that was a gift from one of her later owners. Sorry about the angle of the shot! I should mention the clock seen here. It was a mass of parts in a box when I aquired it! It took nearly three years to restore it! The Goddard Flame is an addition done by your's truly. The same girl that did the work on the San Diego Carousel model we did restored the dial and arch work. The gold section had to be brought up under black light in order to be reproduced.
    The finish is shellac.
    Jay
    Last edited by Jay Greer; 07-12-2020 at 11:38 AM.

  20. #55
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    Default Re: A pirate ship for the new age.

    What is missing from the model that will add to her look is the stern and quarter windows. This will make the after owner's cabin much more inviting and livable! The rudder control will be hydraulic, if needed, and will aid in saving space from tackles and blocks.
    The engine room will be more or less soundproof and house the diesel electric gear and main pumps. This is a bit more complex than the original boats were in the old days albeit that they were, often, three times larger than this version.
    Jay

  21. #56
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    Default Re: A pirate ship for the new age.

    Hang in here as there is much more to come!
    Jay

  22. #57
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    Default Re: A pirate ship for the new age.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jay Greer View Post
    Hang in here as there is much more to come!
    Jay
    I regret that my hard drive has crashed and is not repairable so things will be delayed for a few days. Sorry group!
    Jay
    sent from my I phone

  23. #58
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    Default Re: A pirate ship for the new age.

    Aaaaaargh!
    It's all fun and games until Darth Vader comes.

  24. #59
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    Default Re: A pirate ship for the new age.

    After a multitude of time seeking a new computer that will work for me I have a new sixteen inch Mac that is easy to work with for me! I tried a smaller model and it was not working well so I turned it back in after working nearly two weeks with it and hating the feel of it all the while! Finally I have one that fits my needs. Back on line group! I am still trying to straighten out my old information!
    Jay
    Last edited by Jay Greer; 07-11-2020 at 11:51 AM.

  25. #60
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    Default Re: A pirate ship for the new age.

    So far as the scale deck model I have been working on to show the amount of deck room that is available on a 28ft topsail schooner are concerned, here are a few last shots before it is sent off to the owner. I sincerely hope that he will choose the 34 or 35 foot version that I myself believe would work best. The cannons are to be carbide charged and are modeled after a two inch bore gun.
    Strictly for fun. I should think that the splices for the restraining tackles and water buckets are smaller than I should repeat making again. This is the little Proxxon saw I purchased to do the miniature work that was needed for the model. It is small, much smaller than my Inca pattern makers saw and is much better suited for tiny work.
    Jay

  26. #61
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    Default Re: A pirate ship for the new age.

    Here are a few more shots of the final work that was done. I am now packaging it for shipment to the owner. Tiny eye splice for a tiny cannon tackle.
    Jay

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    Default Re: A pirate ship for the new age.


  28. #63
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    Default Re: A pirate ship for the new age.

    I should remind you all that this kind of model does not come from a kit. Nothing but the anchors and cannon were purchased. All other parts were fittied to scale and hand made. The curved rails and bulwarks were carved from solid wood rather than bent. Those cannon bore swabbing buckets are actually only a quarter of an inch across the bottom. They took several days each to make. The model itself took a heck of a lot longer as it was made by eye but within the parameters of beam for towing on its trailer.

    I could think of no better way to show the kind of space available on the deck of the full size boat other than to make the model. Even Musk is making rocket models for the Mars shot! Model making still has its uses even though we now have 3D printing available. This one is wired for lights and so the navigation lights as well as the cabin areas are aglow at night! It was a lot of fun to make but it did take a bit of time to do.
    Jay
    Last edited by Jay Greer; 07-12-2020 at 11:25 AM.

  29. #64
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    Default Re: A pirate ship for the new age.

    That light wor
    Last edited by Jay Greer; 07-12-2020 at 01:29 PM.

  30. #65
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    Default Re: A pirate ship for the new age.

    Where will you put the tiller/wheel?

  31. #66
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    Default Re: A pirate ship for the new age.

    Lovely!
    Didn't Bolger do a design to very much the same design brief?

  32. #67
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    Default Re: A pirate ship for the new age.

    Quote Originally Posted by David W Pratt View Post
    Lovely!
    Didn't Bolger do a design to very much the same design brief?
    Bolger is one of my favorites. His pulling boat "Verve" is a real classic! In fact for the photo shoot of that boat for "Rudder" magazine, he dressed up as Nathanial Herreshoff and one would swear that he was Nathanial himself! Errie! Bolger made many designs for classic boats but I am not aware of one the resembles the one I have modeled. It is 100% my own design that also takes in the desires of the owner. The high poop deck is one thing that is a requirement. There is a need for head room and ventilation in the after cabin which the poop provides but also hence the skylight which will, possibly, a bit shorter in order to provide more deck room for the helmsman. Of course the rudder post will be outboard. The longer boat will give room for both the skylight and the helmsman but, the boat can also be conned from the bridge deck as well. Only the bare essentials were placed on the model in order to show the amount of available space. Space that soon dissappears as soon as people go aboard! The larger version will give room for many things such as space on deck and a separate engine room and greater head room throughout. I will mention that I did a tremendous amount of research before ever putting a pencil to paper.
    This is, possibly, the most challenging design I have ever done!
    Jay
    Last edited by Jay Greer; 07-12-2020 at 01:31 PM.

  33. #68
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    Default Re: A pirate ship for the new age.

    A note here on the choice of the grated cargo hold. This is a multipurpose area where people can lounge, eat, bask in the sun or snooze. In its open grated condition, it provides fresh air and light below. One section opens to a ladder to give access below to the galley, head and main cabin.
    But it can also be covered by four cushons to give softer seating. In brisk weather it can be battened down and made water proof with a fitted canvas cover that is held on by lacing.
    Jay

  34. #69
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    Default Re: A pirate ship for the new age.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jay Greer View Post
    A note here on the choice of the grated cargo hold. This is a multipurpose area where people can lounge, eat, bask in the sun or snooze. In its open grated condition, it provides fresh air and light below. One section opens to a ladder to give access below. To the galley, head and main cabin.
    But it can also be covered by four cousins to give softer seating. In brisk weather it can be battened down and made water proof with a fitted canvas cover that is held on by lacing.
    They would have to be voluptuous cousins to give softer seating. Rubenesque even
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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  35. #70
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    Default Re: A pirate ship for the new age.

    Quote Originally Posted by Peerie Maa View Post
    They would have to be voluptuous cousins to give softer seating. Rubenesque even
    They might be Sirens Nick!
    Jay

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