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Thread: What Needs to Change

  1. #1
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    Default What Needs to Change

    The psychopath who killed George Floyd with his knee was:

    - the target of 18 previous complaints;

    - previously punished for using excessive force;

    - a man who had already shot at least two "suspects";

    - the field training officer for the other cowards who stood by while he killed a subdued man.

    So police forces choose guys with that kind of history to train the newbies? No wonder this kind of brutality persists! That system is a ripe target for immediate reform. Newbies should be trained and mentored by officers who have NO complaints, and who have done their job for years without shooting anybody who didn't shoot first.

    Can't get rid of the "bad apples" because the unions won't let you? At least remove them from any contact with new officers, or you will continue to spoil the lot.

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    Default Re: What Needs to Change

    I haven't seen anything 'in the news' recently - but believe Minnesota has actually brought suit against Minneapolis/law enforcement, over just these issues. No idea how that's progressing - but it's damn right about time.
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    Default Re: What Needs to Change

    I am suspicious of calls for "reform". More words on paper. What's required is balls. Balls come from moral conviction.
    If Russia wins, there will be no Ukraine; if Ukraine wins, there will be a new Russia.

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    Default Re: What Needs to Change

    Quote Originally Posted by George. View Post
    The psychopath who killed George Floyd with his knee was:

    - the target of 18 previous complaints;

    - previously punished for using excessive force;

    - a man who had already shot at least two "suspects";

    - the field training officer for the other cowards who stood by while he killed a subdued man.

    So police forces choose guys with that kind of history to train the newbies? No wonder this kind of brutality persists! That system is a ripe target for immediate reform. Newbies should be trained and mentored by officers who have NO complaints, and who have done their job for years without shooting anybody who didn't shoot first.

    Can't get rid of the "bad apples" because the unions won't let you? At least remove them from any contact with new officers, or you will continue to spoil the lot.
    Again Unions aren't bad. It is the protection of bad cops that is bad. Quit with the anti union rhetoric as every city, state and federal government that has a police union entered the contract granting them those rights. If you are going to disappointed - it is those who we elected that allowed for such union contracts and conduct that you should point out. Anytime the government wants to rewrite the contract they can ask for those previsions to be removed.
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    Default Re: What Needs to Change

    Part of this problem, is the conflated brotherhood-of-cops and the us-versus-them culture. Just like the military, and consequently vets, cops are a small fraction of the population, and an outsized part of the popular culture. Part of the problem is the recruiting and selection of candidates.

    A possible solution to the problem would be to make it mandatory for everyone who graduates high school to have cop training, and to serve a brief stint on a police force. Everyone between the ages of, say, twenty-one and thirty, of any gender, must sign up or enlist or be commissioned into either the military or a police force, and either way, receive exactly the same basic training.

    Ultimately, every able bodied person gets to walk the beat, patrol the highway, respond to calls of domestic disturbance and shots fired and all the rest of it. Everyone would get to know what pepper spray and a baton feel like, from both sides of the transaction. Everyone would know proper and humane restraint methods and how to de-escalate and etc. and everyone would know how it feels to be handcuffed and to spend the night in the slammer.

    And when everyone is us and no one is them, we'll have an end of police brutality. At least as an endemic and perennial and perpetual feature of the daily evening news. Probably go a ways to relieving some of the load of racism, too.


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    Default Re: What Needs to Change

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Mahan View Post
    Part of this problem, is the conflated brotherhood-of-cops and the us-versus-them culture. Just like the military, and consequently vets, cops are a small fraction of the population, and an outsized part of the popular culture. Part of the problem is the recruiting and selection of candidates.

    A possible solution to the problem would be to make it mandatory for everyone who graduates high school to have cop training, and to serve a brief stint on a police force. Everyone between the ages of, say, twenty-one and thirty, of any gender, must sign up or enlist or be commissioned into either the military or a police force, and either way, receive exactly the same basic training.

    Ultimately, every able bodied person gets to walk the beat, patrol the highway, respond to calls of domestic disturbance and shots fired and all the rest of it. Everyone would get to know what pepper spray and a baton feel like, from both sides of the transaction. Everyone would know proper and humane restraint methods and how to de-escalate and etc. and everyone would know how it feels to be handcuffed and to spend the night in the slammer.

    And when everyone is us and no one is them, we'll have an end of police brutality. At least as an endemic and perennial and perpetual feature of the daily evening news. Probably go a ways to relieving some of the load of racism, too.
    That, and 'police officer' doesn't even rate the top ten in a list of most dangerous occupations.

    Roofers are more at risk of their lives every day, but we don't see movies where the marriage is being torn apart because the wife doesn't know if her roofer husband is going to come home at night.

    Imagine the scene where they've been arguing late into the night, and as he leaves for work ANYWAY, and slings his nail bag and roofing hatchet over his shoulder, she breaks down and sobs,"I love you, Jimmy, but I can't take it anymore! I'm going to my mother's until you get over yourself!"

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    Default Re: What Needs to Change

    Jim Mahan's idea has great potential.
    If Russia wins, there will be no Ukraine; if Ukraine wins, there will be a new Russia.

    -- Dmytro Kuleba, Foreign Minister of Ukraine

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    Default Re: What Needs to Change

    Quote Originally Posted by Osborne Russell View Post
    Jim Mahan's idea has great potential.
    No, conscription for national service does not work. You get a bunch of disgruntled time servers doing as little as they can whilst waiting for their release great expense in wages and the time of the poor sods assigned to train them.
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    Default Re: What Needs to Change

    Quote Originally Posted by Peerie Maa View Post
    No, conscription for national service does not work. You get a bunch of disgruntled time servers doing as little as they can whilst waiting for their release great expense in wages and the time of the poor sods assigned to train them.
    Good ol' naysayer.

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    Default Re: What Needs to Change

    Quote Originally Posted by George Jung View Post
    I haven't seen anything 'in the news' recently - but believe Minnesota has actually brought suit against Minneapolis/law enforcement, over just these issues. No idea how that's progressing - but it's damn right about time.
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    Minnesota files against Minneapolis

    State of Minnesota files civil rights charge against Minneapolis Police Department



    The state of Minnesota launched a sweeping civil rights probe into the Minneapolis Police Department on Tuesday, a week after an officer allegedly killed a black man during an arrest, officials said.

    The probe, stemming from the death of George Floyd, will be designed to root out "systemic racism that is generations deep," Gov. Tim Walz told reporters.

    "The Minnesota Department of Human Rights is filing a commissioner's charge of discrimination and launch a civil right investigation against the Minneapolis Police Department," Walz said. "The investigation will review MPD's policies, procedures and practices over the last 10 years to determine if the department has utilized systemic discriminatory practices towards people of color."





    You can read the rest:

    https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/st...cid=spartandhp
    We did something similar some time ago.
    Peerie Maa
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    Re: Racail issues in the US, what should we do?
    When we realised that there was a racist based failure in our policing we held the Stephen Lawrence/Macpherson Enquiry with the intention of to inquire into the matters arising from the death of Stephen Lawrence on 22 April 1993 to date, in order particularly to identify the lessons to be learned for the investigation and prosecution of racially motivated crimes”.


    It's result?
    What were its recommendations?

    A total of 70 recommendations designed to show “zero tolerance” for racism in society were made. They included measures not just to transform the attitude of the police towards race relations and improve accountability but also to get the civil service, NHS, judiciary and other public bodies to respond and change.
    What was their impact?

    Some 67 of the report’s recommendations led to specific changes in practice or the law within two years of its publication. They included the introduction of detailed targets for the recruitment, retention and promotion of black and Asian officers, as well as the creation of the Independent Police Complaints Commission with the power to appoint its own investigators.
    The abolition of the “double jeopardy rule” – which stated that people could not be tried for the same crime twice – eventually led to the 2012 conviction of Gary Dobson and David Norris for Lawrence’s murder.
    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/...ct-did-it-have
    I would also recommend that all public servants, Judges, police chiefs or whatever be required to sign up to and work to an appropriate Code of Practice. Such a CoP could include a requirement to leave their religion and politics at home when the set off for work, and ensure that they treat every one as equal, irrespective of colour, cultural origin, or sexual orientation.
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    Default Re: What Needs to Change

    And then you have Hollywood and TV shows. They glorify the maverick cop. "Justice" is served in a climactic shoot-out where the bad guys are killed, no arrest, no trial.

    The "heroes" and trainers seem to be selected from the worst among cops, who in turn might already be self-selecting from the most aggressive people in society.

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    Default Re: What Needs to Change

    This was part of another thread, but a bit of problem definition might not hurt. I'll list a few; doubtless there are more:

    - The inherent nature of police work. Police deal regularly with the scum of the earth, which tends to produce callousness and cynicism. The job also attracts some who like bullying, cruelty, and violence. These folks can either be kept out or weeded out, but it takes desire, vigilance, and deliberate effort.

    - Long-term history. From the very beginning in the US, black folks were viewed by most whites as dangerous inferiors who had at all cost to be kept under control. In the time of slavery, this made rational sense. (The Haitian revolution of the 1790s had a gigantic effect on southern whites, not often remembered today; scared 'em witless, and for good reason.) It persisted long after slavery was gone, and the police were responsible for most of the control. That idea has not gone away, although it isn't as prevalent it once was.

    - Short-term history: The much higher crime rates of the '70s and '80s accentuated both of the above factors, and tended to make police both more cynical and more brutal. Ideas often persist longer than their causes.
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    Default Re: What Needs to Change

    Police deal regularly with the scum of the earth
    ?? LE almost _never_ deal with politicians/venture capitalists/etc..


    Wait!

    I get it!

    They daily deal with cops and lawyers.

    Scum of the earth.

    The unfortunate, caught between a rock and a hard place, are not the scum.


    There, but for fortune...

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    Default Re: What Needs to Change

    Oh, come on now. There are many kinds of scum. Domestic abusers? Sociopathic petty criminals? No, a police office doesn't generally deal with malefactors of great wealth, but smaller, messier, and more in-your-face nasty.

    Too cynical by half. And I know a fair number of lawyers, and at least the ones I know are no worse than the normal run of humanity.
    "For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations,
    for nature cannot be fooled."

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    Default Re: What Needs to Change

    Quote Originally Posted by Keith Wilson View Post
    Oh, come on now. There are many kinds of scum Domestic abusers? Sociopathic petty criminals? No, a police office doesn't generally deal with malefactors of great wealth, but smaller, messier, and more in-your-face nasty.
    None of those categories are at all exclusive; domestic abuse is not uncommon amongst the wealthy nor is petty theft. The narrative that they are is behind the broken policing of the USA.

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    Default Re: What Needs to Change

    Quote Originally Posted by Durnik View Post
    ?? LE almost _never_ deal with politicians/venture capitalists/etc..


    Wait!

    I get it!

    They daily deal with cops and lawyers.

    Scum of the earth.

    The unfortunate, caught between a rock and a hard place, are not the scum.


    There, but for fortune...
    No, criminal politicians, developers, big time fraudsters etc deal with other politicians and a 'suitable injection of cash' is usually enough to make the problem go away. And if it a REALLY BIG problem then the President can always be persuaded to pardon the perp, in advance if necessary.

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    Default Re: What Needs to Change

    Petty criminals are by definition not wealthy. Few domestic abusers are rich because few men are rich. Durnik's snarky claim that police don't really have to deal with nasty horrible people, the 'scum of the earth', because that term should only apply to rich folks, lawyers, and police is simply bullsh!t. It doesn't only apply to the worst of the poor and downtrodden either, of course.
    "For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations,
    for nature cannot be fooled."

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    Default Re: What Needs to Change

    Quote Originally Posted by Keith Wilson View Post
    Petty criminals are by definition not wealthy.
    Petty criminals commit petty crimes by definition. A wealthy shoplifter or drunk driver is as much a petty criminal as a poor one.

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    Default Re: What Needs to Change

    Quote Originally Posted by Hugh Conway View Post
    Petty criminals commit petty crimes by definition. A wealthy shoplifter or drunk driver is as much a petty criminal as a poor one.
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    Default

    There's a tiny part of me almost feels sorry for the 4 cops involved. These excessively violent arrests are SOP. Just this one happened to go bad. All I'm saying is it's just one example of a deeply entrenched systemic problem.

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    Default Re: What Needs to Change

    When I was a boy and we'd sit on the front porch, I noticed how different the comments were when someone didn't quite stop at the stop sign on our corner. If the driver was a white male over 25 or so, 'HE' was a poor driver. It a teenager did the same thing, "they" (teenagers) are bad drivers. If a woman did so, "women" are poor drivers.

    Americans do most everything on emotions, rather than logic, and we have a tendency to put certain people into monolithic groups. Sadly, a lot of white people do so with black people, and other groups be they race, religion, nationality, etc.....

    How we stop this beats the hell out of me, but it would be a good start.
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    Default Re: What Needs to Change

    Our local police academy has stated part of the problem. Of twenty applicants to the incoming class of recruits, only one passed the background check.
    “Aren’t you supposed to be the gentlemen who lie for the good of their country?”
    “That’s diplomats. We’re not gentlemen.”
    “So you lie to save your hides.”
    That’s politicians. Different game entirely.”

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    Default Re: What Needs to Change

    Quote Originally Posted by Peerie Maa View Post
    No, conscription for national service does not work. You get a bunch of disgruntled time servers doing as little as they can whilst waiting for their release great expense in wages and the time of the poor sods assigned to train them.
    The benefits are cultural. If we put them in the military, that's OK too.
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    Default Re: What Needs to Change

    Quote Originally Posted by Osborne Russell View Post
    Jim Mahan's idea has great potential.
    Except that every woman abusing, standover bully in the country would be taught how to take someone to the ground, apply choke holds etc., etc. And in Australia I'm five times more likely to die on the job as a postie than anyone in law enforcement/ defense.
    People are saying that the riots in America could have been avoided if the four cops were arrested and charged immediately. They could also have been avoided- along with another totally unnecessary death- if any one of the other three cops had said hey back off man- he can't breathe. Too late now though ain't it? And there is to be a huge Black Lives Matter march in Sydney today- despite pleas from government for it to be called off or postponed. Stupid and inconsiderate after months of social distancing and lockdowns to get on top of covid. I suppose if they get infected and kill off the older family members they might get to inherit something a bit sooner. JayInOz

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    Default Re: What Needs to Change

    Quote Originally Posted by JayInOz View Post
    Except that every woman abusing, standover bully in the country would be taught how to take someone to the ground, apply choke holds etc., etc.
    And everyone else would learn to see it coming, what to say, what to do, bear witness, etc. without feeling that their career was on the line.
    If Russia wins, there will be no Ukraine; if Ukraine wins, there will be a new Russia.

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    Default Re: What Needs to Change

    Quote Originally Posted by Osborne Russell View Post
    The benefits are cultural. If we put them in the military, that's OK too.
    By the time they are old enough to wear big boots, it is too late. Culture is learned at their mother's knee. Habits of life are set as they turn 20.
    There are varying downsides
    Cons

    Damage to existing schemes

    Critics of national service point to the success of existing schemes such as the National Citizens’ Service in the UK, in which young people spend a month learning skills working on projects with their peers and volunteering in their communities.
    “The problems arise when we move from the voluntary nature of the current programme to a mandatory one,” Yiannis Baboulias argues in a 2019 article in the New Statesman. “A voluntary scheme ensures that by and large only the most eager students will participate.
    “This eliminates from the existing sample of schemes the negative attitudes of teenagers who will not want to be there, therefore biassing the results.”

    Promotes nationalism

    When Macron’s compulsory national service kicked off in France in 2019, many commentators were disturbed by images showing French teenagers lined up in uniform - albeit baseball caps and polo shirts.
    Celine Malaise, a Communist regional councillor, tweeted: “This old nationalist nightmare repulses me.”

    She likened it to “denying the free will of young people, their engagement, their critical spirit” and called the programme a hypocritical “masquerade” given the underfunding of schools.

    Meanwhile, the Union Nationale Lyceenne (National Union of Secondary Students) said: “Is it in keeping with the times to constrain young people to go and sing under a flag at 8am in the morning? This universal national service must not be made compulsory.”
    Burden to the army

    Between 1949 - when the UK National Service Act came into force - and 1963 - when the last national serviceman was demobbed - more than two million British men aged between 18 and 30 were called up to spend 18 months in the Armed Forces.

    However, the scheme was phased out from 1957 following complaints from the Army that the sheer number of conscripts had become a burden, says the National Army Museum.
    https://www.theweek.co.uk/94653/shou...tional-service
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    Default Re: What Needs to Change

    Quote Originally Posted by Peerie Maa View Post
    By the time they are old enough to wear big boots, it is too late. Culture is learned at their mother's knee. Habits of life are set as they turn 20.
    So you blame the parents?

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    Default Re: What Needs to Change

    Quote Originally Posted by skaraborgcraft View Post
    So you blame the parents?
    They are responsible for bringing the kids up.
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    Default Re: What Needs to Change

    I blame society Ska and PM. And society takes it's cues from the top. Britain, Australia and the US can hardly boast about their politicians performances, but the systems in play are also at fault. Right from day 1 a budding politician for a party is required to lie as a condition of his activity as an 'advisor' and even bigger lies if he is preselected. And then I'm patliament he is part of a whole sucession of group lies to remain in power.
    Now in the commercial world such behaviour would land you in jail for fraud and deception but our courts say it's 'free speech' or some such crap. That means that the Court is also party to such lies and deception.

    Now when it comes to racism and discrimination I think the awareness of 'the other' is part of the human condition because if there are none we invent them. But skin colour, facial features and so on are more so because we are a visual species. It'll be quite hard to breed or educate that out of the species I think. We are not the first generations of humans to discriminate or for that matter kill 'the other'. Think christianities rocky road since about 150AD to now. We have invented 'the other' and killed them in pursuit of power. and an apartheid heaven And 'christians' are not alone, it's what humans do.

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    Default Re: What Needs to Change

    Quote Originally Posted by Keith Wilson View Post
    Oh, come on now. There are many kinds of scum. Domestic abusers? Sociopathic petty criminals? No, a police office doesn't generally deal with malefactors of great wealth, but smaller, messier, and more in-your-face nasty.

    Too cynical by half. And I know a fair number of lawyers, and at least the ones I know are no worse than the normal run of humanity.
    The unfortunate and downtrodden are not the scum so much as the wealthy connected who manipulate society to keep them there.

    While David Koch prided himself on supporting the arts, his legacy is of 'scum of the earth'.

    ftr: I've eaten many a meal with people who have nothing.. I'd trade none of them for a meal with the likes of Koch.


    On top of this, people respond to increasing police violence with their own, often pre-emptive, violence. It's hard to fault a man with aggressively attempting to save his own life. Now, were our legal system to be replaced with a justice system..


    disclaimer: I also know/have known a few fair minded lawyers.. even they admit/admitted they are/were exceptions. The legal profession in the U.S. is meant to turn Justice on its head.


    btw: the 'I know a fair #.." meme is self selecting.. just saying..

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    Default Re: What Needs to Change

    Back to the point about what needs to change.

    The attention is rightly on those instances of cops killing black people by excessive force and often enough to spawn the present national protest. Without regard for any other factor, in each such instance, what should have happened should have not resulted in the fatality, so what about those instances would need to be different for that better outcome?

    The obvious answer is that in each case the perp-victim should have been not black.

    OR, maybe, in each such instance that has made the news and inspired a general protest by literally millions of people worldwide, involving more escalating violence, destruction and injury, the thing that might have been different and resulted in a better outcome would be for those particular cops to have not used the lethal restraining techniqes.

    Also, that better outcome would most likely have occured had those cops honored the iconic motto to protect and serve and HAD THERE NOT BEEN RACISM AS A PRIME FACTOR in the cop's choices.


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    Default Re: What Needs to Change

    from - https://www.mninjustice.org/


    CONSIDER WHAT WOULD HAVE HAPPENED TO GEORGE FLOYD IF HE HAD SURVIVED.

    OP ED BY FORMER MINNEAPOLIS PUBLIC DEFENDER

    I am an attorney in Minneapolis, formerly a Hennepin county public defender. I have witnessed Minneapolis police brutality over and over and over again. Dozens of my clients were beaten up, choked out, and brutalized by Minneapolis police officers. This violence follows a pattern. It starts when the police assault a ‘suspect’. Then it moves to city or county prosecutors, who shift blame to the victim in the form of criminal charges. Judges perpetuate the violence by finding it legal and permissible. The people who have the power to stop the violence, or at least condemn it, look away.

    The big difference between my clients and George Floyd is that they did not die. Consider what would have happened to George Floyd if he had survived. Here is a snapshot of what he would be facing in the Minnesota justice system.

    George Floyd wakes up in a jail cell, disoriented and in pain. Deputies take him into the courtroom for a bail hearing. The prosecutor charges him with forgery of a $20 bill, obstructing legal process (the formal name for ‘resisting arrest’), and felony assault on a police officer. The judge sets bail around $500,000.

    George Floyd’s defense attorney challenges the stop, search, and seizure (arrest). The attorney plays the videos for the judge and argues that the police officers violated the Minnesota and u.s. constitutions by using excessive force. The attorney also moves to dismiss the obstruction and assault charges, because the video shows that George Floyd wasn’t resisting arrest or assaulting the officers. The prosecutor argues the police were just following their training.

    The Minneapolis Police Department manual, section 5-311 (neck restraints), allows officers to use their legs to restrain a suspect’s neck when the suspect resists arrest. The prosecutor argues that the use of force was valid because George Floyd “actively resisted being handcuffed”, “did not voluntarily get into the [squad] car”, and “struggled with officers”. (these are quotes from the Hennepin county attorney’s criminal complaint against Derek Chauvin. This is how the prosecutor described George Floyd as a murder victim. Imagine what they would say if he were the defendant.)

    The judge adopts the prosecutor’s version of facts, condones the neck restraint, and denies the motion to dismiss. The parties set a trial date.

    Jury selection begins. There might be two or three black people in the jury pool. The prosecutor strikes all of them. The defense objects; the judge allows it.

    At trial, each of the four police officers testifies. They have been prepped by the prosecution, and they testify in lock-step with each other. The defense either does not know or is prohibited from presenting evidence that two of the officers have a history of police brutality. George Floyd testifies and explains he didn’t know the $20 bill was fake and that he was not resisting arrest. He was scared. He could not breathe. He has an old felony conviction from Texas.

    The jury deliberates. The police officers sounded credible, and they all said the same thing. The prosecutor said that George Floyd’s actions constitute ‘resisting arrest’ under the law. George Floyd sounded sincere, but he didn’t want to get into the squad car. He admitted he was scared. He’d had run-ins with the police before.

    The jury finds him guilty of obstruction and assault on a police officer. They might vote not-guilty to the forgery.

    George Floyd files an appeal. His attorneys challenge everything from the bail to the excessive force ruling to the convictions. The court of appeals denies all of it. The supreme court declines to review the case. George Floyd remains in prison.

    The prosecutors take the appellate ruling back to the 3rd precinct station—it would not have burned down—and celebrate. The trial court and appellate court rulings validate the contents of the police manual, the use of neck restraints, the filing of obstruction and assault charges against a victim. Minneapolis city attorneys add this case to the “use of force” section of the police department manual. They use this case as an example when they train police officers about the use of force. They cite it in their defense briefs when police officers are sued for using neck restraints. District and appellate court judges cite this case in affirming similar acts of police brutality. The violence continues.

    The cycle of violence within the Minneapolis Police Department is condoned and perpetuated by the Minneapolis City Attorney’s Office, the Hennepin County Attorney’s Office, and the Minnesota Judicial Branch. A special counsel, totally independent of the Minneapolis City Attorney’s Office, must review and rewrite the police department manual and training materials. Prosecutors must not file criminal charges when police officers use excessive force. Judges must dismiss such charges and/or suppress all evidence obtained through excessive force. They must stop prosecutors from creating all-white juries. We must fire attorneys and impeach judges who sanction police brutality. Only then will the cycle of violence be broken.

    LEARN

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  33. #33
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    new zealand
    Posts
    6,024

    Default Re: What Needs to Change

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Mahan View Post
    Part of this problem, is the conflated brotherhood-of-cops and the us-versus-them culture. Just like the military, and consequently vets, cops are a small fraction of the population, and an outsized part of the popular culture. Part of the problem is the recruiting and selection of candidates.

    A possible solution to the problem would be to make it mandatory for everyone who graduates high school to have cop training, and to serve a brief stint on a police force. Everyone between the ages of, say, twenty-one and thirty, of any gender, must sign up or enlist or be commissioned into either the military or a police force, and either way, receive exactly the same basic training.

    Ultimately, every able bodied person gets to walk the beat, patrol the highway, respond to calls of domestic disturbance and shots fired and all the rest of it. Everyone would get to know what pepper spray and a baton feel like, from both sides of the transaction. Everyone would know proper and humane restraint methods and how to de-escalate and etc. and everyone would know how it feels to be handcuffed and to spend the night in the slammer.

    And when everyone is us and no one is them, we'll have an end of police brutality. At least as an endemic and perennial and perpetual feature of the daily evening news. Probably go a ways to relieving some of the load of racism, too.
    What about people with osseous spurs and rich daddy's? Would they have to do it too? Bring back compulsory military training - similar benefits, but much less scope for public harm. Do you really want to give batons, pepper spray and guns to a bunch of pimply faced 18 year olds? Or have daddy's little princess facing down some drug addled meth-head with an axe to grind?

    Pete
    The Ignore feature, lowering blood pressure since 1862. Ahhhhhhh.

  34. #34
    Join Date
    Feb 2001
    Location
    Seattle, WA USA
    Posts
    16,795

    Default

    Sister Mary Ignatius explains it all to you.


    https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/06/u...lis-kroll.html

    I'd quote from it...but, just go read it.

    I'm about as pro-Union as you can get... but police unions ARE the problem here.
    You would not enjoy Nietzsche, sir. He is fundamentally unsound. — P.G. Wodehouse (Carry On, Jeeves)

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