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Thread: Small marine diesel install

  1. #36
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    Default Re: Small marine diesel install

    Hey! That's progress!
    Rick

    Lean and nosey like a ferret

  2. #37
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    Default Re: Small marine diesel install

    Nice job. Some people would have not bothered with the scallops, but its worth the effort, i think. I bought R&D flexi coupling to allow for minor variations in alignment which you will always get with todays soft flexible feet, together with a Volvo type flexible shaft seal, which are cheap, but supposed to be replaced on a regular basis.......though have seen ones 10 years old still working and not leaking.

  3. #38
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    Default Re: Small marine diesel install

    Thanks Rick & Ian, I bought a Polyflex (Ricks recommendation- Aus made ?) coupling vibration thingo and there’s a PSS seal waiting too. The scallops are one of those damned if I do, damned if I didn’t - the usual forum carry-on.
    The PSS claim that they don’t need water lubrication if the vessel doesn’t go over 6 knots, On their website, but I emailed the manufacturer to clear that up and they said they’d prefer if it had water. Go figure.
    Vaguely from memory they recommend something needs changing every six years or so , maybe the carbon face? Ka-ching $$$ Hopefully dry bilge but!
    Last edited by Andrew Donald; 06-23-2020 at 04:16 AM.

  4. #39
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    Default Re: Small marine diesel install

    Are they Tasmanian scallops?
    Rick

    Lean and nosey like a ferret

  5. #40
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    Default Re: Small marine diesel install

    Coming on well, Andrew. (That's not something I want to be doing.)

    Ian
    Old Joke: ‘A bench fitter works to the nearest thousandth of an inch. A loco fitter (steam) works to the nearest inch. A shipwright works to the nearest ship’.”
    Alan Byde, Canoe Design and Construction, Pelham Books, 1978

    “...old maxim, 'A fair line supersedes any given measurement'.”
    Allan H. Vaitses, Lofting, International Marine, 1980

  6. #41
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    Default Re: Small marine diesel install

    I reckon you’d manage very well Ian.

  7. #42
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    Default Re: Small marine diesel install

    Thanks, Andrew.

  8. #43
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    Default Re: Small marine diesel install

    Quote Originally Posted by RFNK View Post
    Are they Tasmanian scallops?
    they’ll keep the barnacles company.

  9. #44
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    Default Re: Small marine diesel install

    Today was supposed to be install -shaft -tube -into -log Day but I decided to put it off while the cutlass bearing is checked for size. 25mm shaft but not matter how many times I measure it the cutlass comes out at 1 inch (25.4mm) so after much discussion on this forum and googling for tolerances I’ve sent photos to supplier for checking.

    Anyway productive forward motion is still happening in the form of butchering the floor under engine belly for clearance. Photos below show the finished article after I’d cut down bolts and re-threaded then filled and filleted and 5 layers carbon fibred said floor. Now with shaft angle as low as I can get it and trial fit of engine dummy Ivegot about an inch of clearance. I’m happy with that

    037D1252-73D3-4269-ACF3-FE8EA7D29A17.jpg3443B480-614D-44D5-8694-E4D2CC4177F6.jpg

    the white scraps of cloth are peel ply.

    So now it’s a waiting game while cutlass gets checked out.... see you’se then

    damn pics upside down , sorry

  10. #45
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    Default Re: Small marine diesel install

    I'm a few posts late but wanted to offer my experience with the PSS shaft seals: I put a pair of them in the boat I run (42' glass on ply motor cat set up for research/teaching) in 1995 when I repowered. Our surveyor insists on changing the neoprene bellows at 5 years, we haul every two, so change at four years has been the pattern. Its not terribly hard and not so expensive compared to sinking...the carbon seal faces have generally been quite durable, this is a working boat and runs 135-150 days a year. I've changed the seal faces twice in the 25 years. So, there is some ongoing maintenance but...the seals have been transformative: its a plywood workboat in the tropics, and having absolutely dry bilges has been wonderful! And, I teach crew to search for the source if there's ANY water, where with conventional packing its always tempting to put it down to packing and not really look around for other sources. With these seals if theres any water, something needs attention. Bonus: dry engine rooms/bilges are much easier to keep clean and painted, which helps see coolant, lube oil, hydraulic oil, etc, all in service of reliability, catching small things before they become big. So, for my money, its a winning proposition, and I think you'll be pleased.
    Oh yes, the water supply: We teed some cooling water from our trans oil coolers into the seals. I like that it keeps the water in the stern tube from being stagnant and helps to keep the bearing faces cool. The hose bibs in the seals are a worry, and I diligently train crew to be aware of them when flopping around down there, as it wouldnt be good to step on one and break it off.
    Brian

  11. #46
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    Default Re: Small marine diesel install

    Good info Brian thanks. Yes those water bibs are prominent. I will fit a Perspex panel over prob.

  12. #47
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    Default Re: Small marine diesel install

    Just to bump this thread a bit. I’ve finally got a cutlass bearing that seems to be the correct shaft diameter (only took three goes). Anyhow I drilled two opposing grub-screw holes in end of shaft tube , on advice from Paul Gartside but I had two more screws so I did two more. Now there’s four screws 90 degrees apart, so hopefully the cutlass won’t spin!

    A9485FAC-8ED1-4A5F-BD17-47F6AF24C2D2.jpg

    I put some witness marks on end of tube/bearing to install it the same way cos drilling a cylinder never works out nice in my workshop (I guess that says something like my OCD isn’t so bad after all) and drilled til a small indent about 1/16” in bearing outer occurred. I reset depth of drill stop each time ‘cos the walls of tube aren’t quite same thickness in lay-up. Took bearing out and ran a starter tap to cut threads. It’s been at least a month since tube lay-up so epoxy should be well cured, threads cut nicely. On final install I’ll loctite grubs in. The grubs are made out of silicon bronze bolt off-cuts with a point filed and slot for driver.

    DD602A5C-FB58-47F1-9BC5-FDD1C3B1FD4A.jpg

    The inboard end of tube was given the treatment with a rasp to cut a shallow recess to hold shaft seal in place.

    CB439CF4-70A2-4BA3-AB8F-BBE14AF19CBD.jpg

    And here’s the whole set-up ready for gluing into boat. Now this will be one of those sleepless nights til it’s over kinda things which is a do-it-once and get-it-bl**dy-right or else.......
    ‘There’ll be jigs for holding a string-line thru center of tube but that’s for the next thrilling instalment.
    thanks for watching.

    CB142A18-CE0D-41B2-A2EC-AF4E6B80AEC4.jpg
    Last edited by Andrew Donald; 07-25-2020 at 09:10 PM.

  13. #48
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    Default Re: Small marine diesel install

    Looks great Andrew! And thanks for showing!
    Rick

    Lean and nosey like a ferret

  14. #49
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    Default Re: Small marine diesel install

    Very impressive, Andrew. Good to see you're not locked down in Melbourne.
    Ian
    Old Joke: ‘A bench fitter works to the nearest thousandth of an inch. A loco fitter (steam) works to the nearest inch. A shipwright works to the nearest ship’.”
    Alan Byde, Canoe Design and Construction, Pelham Books, 1978

    “...old maxim, 'A fair line supersedes any given measurement'.”
    Allan H. Vaitses, Lofting, International Marine, 1980

  15. #50
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    Default Re: Small marine diesel install

    Thanks Rick and Ian. We’ve been living up in the bush since March so I’ve gotta say that it hasn’t really had An effect on me. My wife is here too, working remotely, and her workplace seems to be still ticking away. Main reason we’re staying here is to keep Connies mum away from the risk in Melbourne.
    ‘Has there been any sign of a second coming of the virus in NZ Ian?

  16. #51
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    Default Re: Small marine diesel install

    I would have suggested leaving a little bit of the cutless bearing exposed, just enough to allow some vice-grips to bite the edge for when the time comes to replace it, does not need to be much. Nice job!

  17. #52
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    Default Re: Small marine diesel install

    Quote Originally Posted by skaraborgcraft View Post
    I would have suggested leaving a little bit of the cutless bearing exposed, just enough to allow some vice-grips to bite the edge for when the time comes to replace it, does not need to be much. Nice job!
    that’s a fair comment Ian. It’s a slide fit now but I imagine after being in the water for a while it will need some force to remove. Hopefully , like Covid , a cure will be invented soon.
    i do wonder though what to do while the shaft is Still in? Being a trailer boat and the rudder comes off pretty easy, I could freeshaft from coupling then slide it out and using some good tricks the bearing shouldn’t be too hard to remove.
    Last edited by Andrew Donald; 07-26-2020 at 05:56 PM.

  18. #53
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    Default Re: Small marine diesel install

    Woohoo now this is worth a photo. Actually went better than expected, about 75% planning and 25% crossed fingers. And best of all the shaft lines up, although the feeler gauge will reveal more!
    This is the first trial fit so it’ll be out again.

    7B005CDD-D3CD-4C8D-B008-EB894EE1D914.jpg

  19. #54
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    Default Re: Small marine diesel install

    That's fantastic Andrew, you must be stoked!
    Well done.
    It's all fun and games until Darth Vader comes.

  20. #55
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    Default Re: Small marine diesel install

    Thanks G ( do you have a real name) yes. I even just came in from locating shaft tube in place with some epoxy slugs f & a. Tomorrow I’ll pour some just thickened epoxy in through a couple vent holes to fully encapsulate tube into boat.
    Unprecedented....... time for a celebratory beer

  21. #56
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    Default Re: Small marine diesel install

    Quote Originally Posted by Andrew Donald View Post
    Thanks G ( do you have a real name) yes.
    Yeah mate - Trev. You can see it in my profile.

    Enjoy the beer!
    It's all fun and games until Darth Vader comes.

  22. #57
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    Default Re: Small marine diesel install

    Quote Originally Posted by Andrew Donald View Post
    that’s a fair comment Ian. It’s a slide fit now but I imagine after being in the water for a while it will need some force to remove. .
    I made the comment flashing back to several i have had to remove, and realized they were metal bearings in metal shafts, and sometimes the difference in metals is enough to get them to meld together. I have a resin tube and phenol cutless too, so maybe that wont suffer the same conditions, and probably WHY they are made of those materials. You might try a "butterfly" type plasterboard fitting, that would slide up the bearing and the wings would spring onto the back edge, fix it onto a bit of studding and you have a (almost) ready made slide-hammer.

    Good to see the engine in situ. Looks a bit tight for adjusting the feet, but that seems to be normal in far too many boats.

  23. #58
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    Default Re: Small marine diesel install

    Spotted this photo opp on my coffee break

    DACCD261-5561-48E5-AC77-3EF028EF9DB5.jpg

  24. #59
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    Default Re: Small marine diesel install

    Hi Andrew, I used the 2 cylinder 10hp Nanni in the David Payne Snapper boat I built - 1st time I had installed a diesel in a boat and like you I found it challenging, a few things I learnt might help:
    1) I used a Volvo dripless seal on the shaft - it works just fine with zero leaks as long as I remember to burp the air out of it after the boat is launched off the trailer but before turning the prop. Forgetting to burp results in embarrassing squeals when the seal gets hot!!!
    2) There has to be a fuel line return from the engine back to the fuel tank (so you end up with 2 lines between engine and fuel tank) - I didn't put this 2nd line in when I installed the engine but learnt when the cap blew out of the pipe mid waterway and dispersed several litres in diesel into the bilges - very embarrassing....
    3) When you take her out for the 1st run on the water check and recheck the water flow through the engine cooling - I didn't on one trip and boiled the cooling though fortunately had no damage.
    4) the small Nanni's are great, 3 of us here (south NSW) use them and have no issues at all. Mine is now super reliable and will easily push a 17' boat with 5 adults at 6 knots. The correct prop is key.

    Regards Neil
    p.s. happy to answer any questions you might have.

  25. #60
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    Default Re: Small marine diesel install

    Thanks Neil, I’ll keep you mind especially about diesel in the bilge, musta been a foul cleanup. Must say the Frenchlish in manual can be hard going although they cover most things in one place or another. I downloaded Beta manual too - helpful.

  26. #61
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    Default Re: Small marine diesel install

    Just a thought, reading about spilled fuel, I wonder is it something to consider to block up the limber holes from under the engine (maybe by running a hose from the aft section to the forward section) by way of creating a shallow sump for any oil or fuel drips.
    You'll be leak free for 10 years no doubt, but oil changes and oil filter changes, there's always a drop.

    Isolating that area might save it running through the rest of the boat.

    Also - if you're not 100% sure of impermeability, maybe a layer of glass on the surface just under the motor to make sure oil/fuel doesn't soak into the ply panel. There's a couple of boats on the hard with my boat that have full-on diesel soakage through the hull material. One is wooden and the other Ferro. Nothing will stick to that material ever again, neither paint nor epoxy.


    Yeah - easy for me to say....
    It's all fun and games until Darth Vader comes.

  27. #62
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    Default Re: Small marine diesel install

    You’ve read my mind Trev. Currently I have limbers from for - aft and it’s been a question I’ve been asking myself for a long time. I reckon you’ve answered it though. I’ll block off engine bay and glass inside ply panels under engine. Sure beats trying to make a drip tray, being a bit on the lazy side an’ all. May even block limbers under floor aft of engine so it makes a sorta built-in drip tray.
    thanks for making up my mind.

  28. #63
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    Default Re: Small marine diesel install

    I wouldn't block any limber ways. But a good drip tray is a very good thing to have as you'll inevitably drop some oil and coolant from time to time doing maintenance. I moulded a simple fibreglass drip tray for Masina's engine when I installed it last year. The tray only needs to be shallow and doesn't need to be removed as long as you can get your hand and a rag into it to wipe it out.
    Rick

    Lean and nosey like a ferret

  29. #64
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    Default Re: Small marine diesel install

    Rick can you tell me how you made your tray, any pics?

  30. #65
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    Default Re: Small marine diesel install

    Another vote for not blocking limber holes & using a tray. While you may not deal with freezing temps where you are, unremoved water from between frames where the FO had plugged the limber holes caused freezing damage (well that & having the hull 'glassed) on my boat.

    As said, you just need to be able to get a rag in to wipe it clean.
    "If it ain't broke, you're not trying." - Red Green

  31. #66
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    Default Re: Small marine diesel install

    Yes - tray better. You could probably mold one directly into the space.
    It's all fun and games until Darth Vader comes.

  32. #67
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    Default Re: Small marine diesel install

    Quote Originally Posted by Andrew Donald View Post
    Rick can you tell me how you made your tray, any pics?
    No pics. Take a piece of thick ply or mdf and cut to size. You might want one end higher than the other so plane the mould accordingly. Round off the edges on one face all around, with a router. This will be the mould of the bottom of the tray. Then wrap the mould in packing tape (acts as release agent). Put the mould on a flat surface covered in plastic. Then just glass it with whatever glass and resin you have, as thick as you like. Bust it off the mould and paint with flowcoat or paint or nothing. Easy.
    Rick

    Lean and nosey like a ferret

  33. #68
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    Default Re: Small marine diesel install

    Thanks Rick, I reckon I’ll have to modify your technique a little cos I’ve got this under middle of engine with about 3/4” clearance.

    44BE71F3-DE9C-4348-A985-E8A4A21A291D.jpg

    photo upside down but I’ll place 3mm packers everywhere, onto planking, then cut up and hot-glue MDF to make a tray with a ridge through middle to clear that floor. Packers should create enough allowance for glass. Fillet the corners. Put your packing tape all over the underside, glass, then, wallah. Probably take me two weeks but I’ll just have to get unlazy. Tray should skip across top of limbers and channels either side of keelson so any water can flow.

  34. #69
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    Default Re: Small marine diesel install

    https://www.dropbox.com/s/e6cydhe7ja...0Copy.JPG?dl=0

    I used a similar method to Rick. The tray sits on the keelson/ stringers . Chopped mat over a cardboard and packing tape mold , stiffened the top edges with a sail batten , faired and two potted.

  35. #70
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    Default Re: Small marine diesel install

    Quote Originally Posted by Andrew Donald View Post
    You’ve read my mind Trev. Currently I have limbers from for - aft and it’s been a question I’ve been asking myself for a long time. I reckon you’ve answered it though. I’ll block off engine bay and glass inside ply panels under engine. Sure beats trying to make a drip tray, being a bit on the lazy side an’ all. May even block limbers under floor aft of engine so it makes a sorta built-in drip tray.
    thanks for making up my mind.
    You can always use a pvc pipe to carry the water from the aft portions of the hull to forward of the engine room, thereby making the ER right for any diesel and oil spills.

    In the lovely picture of the engine sitting in its new home, it looks to be fairly tight up against the forward bulkhead? I am guessing that the raw water pump is on the front of the engine. Will there be access hatch in that forward bulkhead to allow service work?

    Lovely job you are doing.

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