Atkin's "Pocahontas" with a centerboard

[Westley]

In my quest to find a wooden boat build to my liking, those still in the running are the Penobscot 14, and the Pocahontas (though I'm constantly looking for contenders, so if you have any suggestions please share). The size and lapstrake style of these boats are right up my alley. The only thing that keeps me from going with the Pocahontas is the use of leeboards. A lot of my sailing is single-handed, and I don't enjoy the extra bustle of leeboards. This is probably a question for the designer, but I thought I'd pass it here first. Is the Pocahontas a good candidate for a centerboard (or daggerboard) modification?

And while you're at it maybe you'd care to give your thoughts on putting a bowsprit on the Penobscot 14.

**EDIT**

Ahem... (4 years later) I must say that my attraction to the wonderful profile of the Pocahontas by Atkin and Co. has not faded since I first found her on the web. For a boat of only 12' she carries a lot of sail and has a seemingly roomy interior. Unfortunately I haven't found a source of information on this design other than the rather sparse description on the website.

So, new question: Has anyone here had any personal experience with this design? If so, what do you think of it? More pictures would also be appreciated because very few seem to be available.

[Thorne]

WOW -- those are really very different boats! Just the inside ballast for Pocahontas weighs far more than an all-up PB14 with a single crewmember aboard.

There are lots of contenders for sail & oar boats that size, but you'll need to be very specific as to your crew, storage, towing, budget and other requirements. Otherwise we'll spend far too much time headscratching and asking questions.

If you want a ballasted open boat with very traditional rigging like Pocahontas, PM me and I'll direct you to at least one option local to you. Better yet, come out to the Big Lagoon Messabout on the third weekend in May and you can try some designs for yourself.

You do know that setup and rigging one of these little mini-yachts takes twice the time that a PB14 would take, right? And the additional weight means you'll need a beefier tow vehicle, not to mention strong rowers if you have to move it very far under oar.

You should be able to replace the leeboards with a centerboard as long as you match the position and size of the foil.

As for modifying the PB14 with a bowsprit you can ask Arch Davis but I suspect it would create brutal lee helm if you flew a jib on it.

[Keith Wilson]

Neither of the Atkins designed many boat with leeboards, and those on Pocahontas look much, much smaller than those on traditional Dutch boats and on the various Bolger designs with which I'm familiar. At the risk of second-guessing a guy who knew way more about designing boats than I do, I'd bet they're too small. But modifying it for a CB seems pretty straightforward; I'd get the size from other similar boats. Too big is better than too small.

FWIW, you can't ask Bill Atkin anything; he's long dead.

[Westley]

I will admit that the 'research' I've done has been mostly the online version of window shopping.

Storage will be outside under some sort of cover, either on a trailer or upside down on saw horses. I'll be single-handling her most of the time. I'm tall and I don't like boats that are too small or have a boom too low. At most I'll take three people but probably only to row. Space for one or two crew under sail would be nice. I have a small economy car for towing, so that rules out the heavier boats (didn't know about the weight on the Pocahontas, thanks). Budget? Less than 1k for the hull if I'm building it. After that I can bide my time before investing in the sailing rig. I like centerboards for their kick-up, but daggerboards for their smaller trunk. I'd like something that has a good speed in light winds, but stable enough to take the higher winds. I like the classic look of lapstrake, so that is a must. I'm open to most any sail configurations.

I will be at the Messabout. In fact, I've attended it and Loch Morgan for the past two years. My display name on the forums here is my 'boat name,' but most people know me as Kristopher; the young upstart with a 'modern design' blue fiberglass catboat. Is it Smither's gaff-rigged sloop you're talking about being for sale up here? She's a beauty, but a bit too big for me. I figured the Pocahontas would be a better bet, since she's 4 feet shorter.

[Thorne]

Ah, I should have recognized your boat in the photos, sorry about that Kristopher! And yes that was Tony's boat I was talking about -- I've helped set it up a few times and it takes **forever**, particularly loading the pigs of lead and rigging the gaffsail.

You are rather spoiled by sailing modern boats with wide, shallow hulls and good sails, so a more traditional boat will be a bit of a disapointment for you. You'll want something like the PB14 or better. The Goat Island Skiff would be perfect but no lapestrake option so it ain't a contendah.

Ask around on some of the Bolger, Michalak and Storer builder web forums, and purchase some sample plans -- I think you'll have a very hard time getting something that size built and on a trailer for 1k. And with sails and spars it will be hard to get it finished for under 2k.

Keep thinking about buying used and restoring / modifying, as that can be much cheaper than building new. Keep checking Craigslist and I'll email you what I find down here.

Speaking of which that 'rowing dory' in Marin is down a few hundred dollars to $1200 -- probably worth the money with sails and trailer.


http://sfbay.craigslist.org/nby/boa/1702401514.html

[Westley]

Ah, I should have recognized your boat in the photos, sorry about that Kristopher!

No worries!

And I love the email updates you've been sending me about listings you've found. That dory does look good for the price. My thoughts are that I already have a boat that gets me on the water (even if it isn't traditional) so I can wait on the other until I find something that really fits what I want.

I know I'm spoiled with the speed and agility of my little boat. I think I'll enjoy the slower pace of a wood hull, but I'd still like something that can pick up and go. PB 14 is looking better and better. I'll check out those other forums, though. Thanks!

[Thorne]

The realistic thing is to get a relatively 'hard' budget for this new boat, then shop for that, either all at once or in parts. I know that with a new baby, boating budgets have to take second or third place, no question there! But I don't think for the price you'll ever match the combo of the boat listed above -- gaff spars and mainsail, wood hull with strakes (only 2 but hey, who's countin'?) and a functional trailer.

For a perfect Swallows & Amazons lapstrake hull in good condition on a trailer, either solid wood (rare) or ply, you'll pay at least $1500-2k at minimum. For the sailing version of same add at least another $1k. Costs to rig it yourself will be more, as gaff sails are rarely found used so you'll have to buy a new sail or kit. And the spars and hardware will be a bit more, too.

I keep an eagle's eye on Craigslist and Latitude 38 listings, and scan eBay routinely for similar boats -- and a multi-strake sail & oar boat on a trailer is rarely under $4k. The extreme deals that occasionally pop up need to be moved on in a matter of hours, not days -- that's how I got that great deal on the Cosine Wherry in San Jose. But I don't think you'll see what you seem to be looking for out here more than once a year at best -- quite rare.

In case anyone (everyone?) is confused about Kristopher's current boat, here's photos of him getting ready to literally sail circles around us at Big Lagoon '09 -

[Westley]

Thanks for the heads-up on the rarity of what I'm looking for. If I had the 1200 cash right now I'd pick that boat off the market, but it isn't so.

Those are by far, the best pictures I have of my boat under sail. Thank you for posting them!

[skaraborgcraft]

Have you got more than a thousand bucks now? That hull will consume a fair amount of timber for its size. I don't see any issue with adding a dagger/centerboard as long as the size and placement is right.
For or modern and lighter sort but with a good deep hull I would definetly look at Paul Fishers Goshawk 14

http://www.selway-fisher.com/GPDinghyover13.htm#SHAWK

[outofthenorm]

No centreboard, but definitely in the same category as Pocahontas - John Welsford's Swiftsure

- Norm

[Westley]

Have you got more than a thousand bucks now? That hull will consume a fair amount of timber for its size. I don't see any issue with adding a dagger/centerboard as long as the size and placement is right.
For or modern and lighter sort but with a good deep hull I would definetly look at Paul Fishers Goshawk 14

http://www.selway-fisher.com/GPDinghyover13.htm#SHAWK

I'm less concerned about actually building it right now, and more about getting information from people who have experience with this boat.

Thank you for the suggestion. I do like a lot of Paul Fishers designs (especially the Highlander and the Sternoway), but I'm really not a fan of prams.

[Westley]

No centreboard, but definitely in the same category as Pocahontas - John Welsford's Swiftsure

- Norm

Wow! Now that is a sight. =) The line drawing on that page is a bit misleading, however. She is quite boxy in reality:


Still, a fun boat, I'm sure!

[JimD]

Wouldn't be surprised if one of the main reasons so few Pocahontas have been built is because prospective builders came to their senses before finishing them. Yet here we are four years down the road and the OP is still talking about it. On the one hand I'm relieved to see there is at least one person on this board who is crazier than I am. On the other hand it may not bode well for humanity as a whole. So Westley, my good man, why are you still interested in this absurdly impractical novelty boat?

[Thorne]

Jim - You haven't seen the boats the rest of his friends sail, have you? "Absurdly impractical novelty boats" == hits the nail right on the head!

[JimD]

Its nice to have like minded friends with similar interests

[Thorne]

We love you, man...

[Westley]

Wouldn't be surprised if one of the main reasons so few Pocahontas have been built is because prospective builders came to their senses before finishing them. Yet here we are four years down the road and the OP is still talking about it. On the one hand I'm relieved to see there is at least one person on this board who is crazier than I am. On the other hand it may not bode well for humanity as a whole. So Westley, my good man, why are you still interested in this absurdly impractical novelty boat?

Jim, as Thorne has pointed out, "novelty boat" is pretty much the goal here. I'm still interested in it because I like her lines. I am not against listening to reason; I'll be the first to admit that I lack the information and experience needed to make a decision about this particular boat. Unfortunately I haven't heard from anyone who has actually been in/around this particular design. I'm interested to hear what they have to say (assuming they exist).

[BrianY]

Have you looked at the Selway Fisher designs? There are plenty of them on the website that have that charatcter thing you seem to be interested in.

http://www.selway-fisher.com/OtherDB.htm

[JimD]

Jim, as Thorne has pointed out, "novelty boat" is pretty much the goal here. I'm still interested in it because I like her lines. I am not against listening to reason; I'll be the first to admit that I lack the information and experience needed to make a decision about this particular boat. Unfortunately I haven't heard from anyone who has actually been in/around this particular design. I'm interested to hear what they have to say (assuming they exist).

Actually, I think it was me who first made reference to the 'novelty' Now, moving on, you say you like her lines. I get that. She's lovely. But lines aside what you have to deal with is 400 pounds of ballast and over 150 sq ft of sail on a 12 foot boat. And that's what makes her a novelty. By comparison you could build the lapstrake gaff sloop version of SFs Woodlark, dress it up a bit to your fancy, and have a boat at half the weight, still a very generous sail plan, that would likely be faster, easier to build definitely be easier to haul up on a beach, come designed for a centerboard, be cheaper to build, a slew of good reasons...Compare the hulls and look how close they are. Change the rudder shape, add a jaunty clipper bow and bowsprit and its hard to tell them apart. Afterall, Pocahontas herself is only dressed up to look 250 years. Its not really something out of the 18th Century.



Anyway, I thought someone ought to at least try to seriously talk you out of a 700 pound 12 foot dinghy. For me boating falls somewhere between silly childish fun, escaping the pressures of daily life, and an ancient and mysterious calling to some primordial instinct. I can appreciate why you keep returning to Pocahontas. Stretch her to a length more befitting of 1400 pounds displacement and I could almost want one myself. Good luck.

[nic 1]

Hi Thorne, What is that in the last picture of your 8.27 post? ( the canoe with leeboard and cream sail) I'm looking for a rig for a currach that can sail to windward better than the traditional dipping lug, and this looks promising.
I'm pretty ignorant when it comes to sail design so forgive me if it shows...

[Thorne]

Whazzat? Which post where?

[nic 1]

The 'absurdly impractical novelty boats' one. You put up 6 pics, it's in the last one.

How do you post pics here-I keep trying on my currach build thread but keep getting told I'm "exceeding my quota" ?

[photocurio]

If the OP wants a beefy little gaff sloop, Pochahontas looks quite awesome. I've admired her for years, in the way you might admire an utterly impractical dream boat. I think $1000 would be barely enough to get started on her though.

If Westly wants a slightly more practical boat that is easier to build, Vivier's Beg-Meil comes to mind. She's easier to build because the hull parts are all cut by computer, including the building frame. I think she is close in weight and sail area to Pocahontas, but she is two and a half feet longer. She has 154 square feet of sail and weighs 770 pounds including her ballast, which is simply a steel centerboard.

She would be even more expensive to build than the Atkin sloop—Hewes prices the kit at $3800. And that doesn't even include the non-plywood timber, or the epoxy, the sails, spars, etc.

p.s. one nice thing about a heavy sloop like this is how much better they sail on summer afternoons than lighter boats. If the southwest breeze is dying, and the water is crossed by a leftover swell, or (worse) multiple powerboat wakes, no sailboat is happy. But a heavy boat with a big rig will keep moving much better than a light one with skinny sails. I noticed this on a Friendship sloop years ago. If you can get a topsail or flying jib on it, that's even better of course.

[Thorne]

The 'absurdly impractical novelty boats' one. You put up 6 pics, it's in the last one.

How do you post pics here-I keep trying on my currach build thread but keep getting told I'm "exceeding my quota" ?

That photo? Really? That is Bruce in his mini-kayak-like boat that has submarined on him several times. with a bit of nylon tent fly as a sail. Suitable only for drifting downwind on a calm day... Somewhere I have a photo of him with the bottom half of his previous sail (part of a bedsheet) all wet from the boat sinking nearly straight down.

Here's how to post photos on this forum:


FIRST - Don't attach photos. Only a tiny version will display.


SECOND - Post the photos on the web. Use your own website or a free image hosting service like www.flickr.com, picasaweb.google.com, picturetrail, photobucket, etc. Images posted on Facebook must be set to "Public" access via the Edit option, not limited to "Friends".


THIRD - Once posted on the web, right-click the photo to "Copy Image Location", or drag the photo to another browser window, then copy the image URL (web address) which will end in ".jpg". You can test by pasting the photo URL into the location field (http://* ) of a web browser and see if the photo displays. Remember that this process will not work for photos located just on your computer, on members-only Yahoo groups, or on Facebook unless set to "Public" view.


In Flickr - First click the photo to bring up the options on the right, click the " ... " (More) link, in the next window click "Download / All Sizes", then in the next window click "View All Sizes" near the bottom right. Then you can get the image URL by right-clicking the image.


FOURTH - DO THIS EVERY TIME TO POST IMAGES IN THREADS:
A. In any "Reply" window you can click the "insert image" icon --> a little yellow square icon with a dot at each corner, a tiny tree in the center.


Depending on browser version and Reply/Edit status, this may bring up a simple window with a field to paste the URL into, or the "Add an Image" window described below.


B. If the window titled "Add an Image" comes up, click the "From URL" tab, paste the URL of the photo in the field, deselect the box for "Retrieve remote file and reference locally", then click the "INSERT IMAGE" button. The Forum software will resize some large images, so look at your post to see the actual displayed images.


NOTE - most common problems are due to missing the step described above -> deselect the box for "Retrieve remote file and reference locally"

[Rigadog]

What about this?








SEA BRIGHT (MICROCRUISER) 18
LOA: 18′
BEAM: 5′ 1″
DRAFT: 8 ½″
WEIGHT: 350 to 500 lbs depending on construction & use.
RIG: Ketch—Sprit main, balance jib and sprit mizzen
TYPE: New Jersey Beach Skiff. Suitable for sailing and rowing with one or two oarsmen in the open ocean and coastal waters. This model is designed with watertight compartments and optional platform forward for use as a camp skiff and microcruiser. This vessel is also an excellent lifeboat for large yachts and commercial vessels.
CONSTRUCTION: Marine plywood covered with epoxy-saturated Xynole-polyester fabric. The hull is frameless, being built over bulkheads. Options for planking include lapstrake, chine log and stitch-and-glue. Skill-level required for construction is moderate to high (lapstrake only).
PLANS: Full Plans include full-size patterns for bulkheads and a copy of The Sharpie Book (construction manual). No lofting required.
OPTIONS: We can build either bare boat or finished boat and ship to you.





DESIGN SPECS

Designer:	Reuel B. Parker
Year of Design:	1995
LOA:	18'
Beam Length:	5' 1"
Draft Length:	8 1/2"
LWL:	N/A
Displacement:	400 lbs
Materials:	Wood
Propulsion:	Sail & Oars
Skill Level to Build:	Moderate (Full-Size Patterns included)
Available as:	Complete Plans
Cost:	$150
Website:	www.parker-marine.com
Contact Information:	email: info@parker-marine.com snailmail: PO Box 651429, Vero Beach, FL 32965

[nic 1]

Thanks for the extensive directions on posting pics Thorne, it sounds madly complex to me tho. I'd rather be building or sailing!
Pics are on Clonakilty Men's Shed facebook page if anyone is interested

[johnw]

The realistic thing is to get a relatively 'hard' budget for this new boat, then shop for that, either all at once or in parts. I know that with a new baby, boating budgets have to take second or third place, no question there! But I don't think for the price you'll ever match the combo of the boat listed above -- gaff spars and mainsail, wood hull with strakes (only 2 but hey, who's countin'?) and a functional trailer.

For a perfect Swallows & Amazons lapstrake hull in good condition on a trailer, either solid wood (rare) or ply, you'll pay at least $1500-2k at minimum. For the sailing version of same add at least another $1k. Costs to rig it yourself will be more, as gaff sails are rarely found used so you'll have to buy a new sail or kit. And the spars and hardware will be a bit more, too.

I keep an eagle's eye on Craigslist and Latitude 38 listings, and scan eBay routinely for similar boats -- and a multi-strake sail & oar boat on a trailer is rarely under $4k. The extreme deals that occasionally pop up need to be moved on in a matter of hours, not days -- that's how I got that great deal on the Cosine Wherry in San Jose. But I don't think you'll see what you seem to be looking for out here more than once a year at best -- quite rare.

In case anyone (everyone?) is confused about Kristopher's current boat, here's photos of him getting ready to literally sail circles around us at Big Lagoon '09 -

Is that a Finn?

[Keith Wilson]

FWIW there's a much easier way to post images, at least with Windows.

1. Find the image. Right-click on it, hit 'copy image'.
2. Click where you want the image in the reply window. Right-click, hit 'paste". Alternately, paste with Ctrl-V
3. Bob's your uncle.

[photocurio]

Kieth, if its a little gaff sloop that you want, don't settle. You can get it. There is no need to be practical—practical people don't dream of wooden sailboats.

If you want a much cheaper, plywood version, Selway Fisher has various nice little gaffers for stitch and glue. This is the Highlander 12 with a gaff rig.

[Westley]

Is that a Finn?

That is a Kite. Hull 567, and the first boat I re-finished. =)

[chef]

567E432F-71E6-46A3-8D5F-986E78430E08.jpgThat’s my boat.....Moonraker. My father built her in 1971. Currently bringing her back for 50 year birthday season.

[nic 1]

that's a lot of boat; nice!

[chef]

43A6DC65-9D80-4FDD-8339-BB2E64CCA9DF.jpg7C0CC407-CF77-4300-B452-362F4BEA4700.jpg6DA23FDE-704B-4EA1-A4A6-4439F0AEF424.jpgappreciate that

[chef]

........mashing buttons trying to figure out how things work here....
Hey everybody. I’m restoring my fathers’ hand-built expression of Pocahontas, christened Moonraker in 1971. I was 2. I grew up learning how to sail in this very boat as well as other Atkin designs, Nina and Precious. Precious was featured in the boatbuilding book, ‘Building the Skiff Cabin Boy’, authored by my parents.
Work has begun, by my own hand, to bring Moonraker back to herself for her 50th year. She has been alternately; seaworthy, loved, hated, in storage, a museum artifact, reclaimed, re-stored, neglected, etc.
We shall see

[pandelume]

Over the years I have often browsed through the Atkin Boats website, and looked at the design and photos of Pocahontas (among others). I have also wondered about the fates of many of the photographed Atkin boats.

Personally, I am delighted to hear that the Moonraker still exists - and is in possession of the same family that built her, no less. I sincerely hope that you post a thread here in Building/Repair about her and any work that you do with her.