An Ilur in Hansville

[davidladd]

The best part of the forum is all the input from other builders. I know that if it wasn’t for all those who posted before me and shared their builds I would have had a rougher time at it. I’m fixing a chip out of the mast step and putting a little paint on the CB that got rubbed. I cut the bottom off a 5 quart oil jug for a bailer (thanks for the tips on tying down the bailer), and I adjusted the fore most trailer roller. I’m going to cut off some of the line on the fenders and move the Prussic knot on one of the main sheet blocks. After watching all of Roger Barnes vids I was surprised At how tender the Ilur was, I now remember other Ilur builders having to add some weight when solo. I think the design of the Ilur was from a French fishing boat that was always really loaded down. And Roger always has a full load when sailing. I have some 25lb bags of lead I’m going to tie down in the bilge one bag on each side next to the CB case. I hope that helps, but it also makes me a little nervous about capsizing and stillbeing able to right the boat with the added lead. The Ilur doesn’t have any ballast in the CB or keel. I ll get back on the water as soon as I help my wife with one of her projects.

[neil.henderson]

The best part of the forum is all the input from other builders. I know that if it wasn’t for all those who posted before me and shared their builds I would have had a rougher time at it. I’m fixing a chip out of the mast step and putting a little paint on the CB that got rubbed. I cut the bottom off a 5 quart oil jug for a bailer (thanks for the tips on tying down the bailer), and I adjusted the fore most trailer roller. I’m going to cut off some of the line on the fenders and move the Prussic knot on one of the main sheet blocks. After watching all of Roger Barnes vids I was surprised At how tender the Ilur was, I now remember other Ilur builders having to add some weight when solo. I think the design of the Ilur was from a French fishing boat that was always really loaded down. And Roger always has a full load when sailing. I have some 25lb bags of lead I’m going to tie down in the bilge one bag on each side next to the CB case. I hope that helps, but it also makes me a little nervous about capsizing and stillbeing able to right the boat with the added lead. The Ilur doesn’t have any ballast in the CB or keel. I ll get back on the water as soon as I help my wife with one of her projects.

Onwards and upwards Moriarty :-)

[davidladd]

Im ready for the next sea trials. 50lbs in the bilge, trailer adjustments, main sheet line up closer to the boom, but the main change was with the yard. I got turned on to a Youtube vid from Michael Storer on bending the sail to the yard and boom. It answered all my questions and allowed me to do a better job with the sail. Any first time lug sailer should see this vid.
“Lugsail Rigging For the OzGoose, Rigging the Lugsail for the First Time”. I finally got the sail bag for the boom/yard/sail combo. I’m making another small cleat to tie off the lazy jack line.

[Clinton B Chase]

Just catching up on the thread.

Good Luck, David, with the sea trials - start with a good reef in the sail and choose your weather. The Ilur - like a lot of these boat types - will settle down when a 2nd person is aboard or some ballast is aboard - the 5 gal water jugs for camping are ok ballast because you can always empty out the seawater and refill them.

[Dinghy Pipedreams]

David,
Was there any warning at all or did it just go over? Asking because the Illur is still near the top of my "dream" boat list and always assumed from the Vermont videos that it was quite hard to even purposely pull "her" over. Guess that' not always the case...


Could you detail the cause(s) of your capsize? Too much sail up? Running line caught in something, gype or "death roll"? ( I get near one with my boomless spritsail). OR do you think it was merely the lack of ballast/load? Anything unique in causation to this particular design compared to others?

I hadn't realized how important stores/ballast and butt weight was even in a design as relatively heavy and seaworthy as the Illur. Good for us to learn from your experience here.

I'm trying out six gallon water jugs (on a 10.5'er_ next to see if that works as well as the dive weight(s) bag. I'd rather the ballast fall out of the boat if I ever capsize or at least be able to pull It out of the boat easily for righting. It made me nervous too to have non removable (or easily removable) ballast.

Hope to see your boat in person one day. Did you bring it to P.T. Fest this year?
Looking forward to your 2nd sail to see how things go!
Cheers, DP

[neil.henderson]

Have you seen Roger Barnes's video (on youtube) after he capsized his Ilur? Roger has sailed a lot & made many videos which are great fun - he was caught out by a mainsheet getting trapped in an aft seat. It can happen to anyone!

Regards Neil

[Dinghy Pipedreams]

Have you seen Roger Barnes's video (on youtube) after he capsized his Ilur? Roger has sailed a lot & made many videos which are great fun - he was caught out by a mainsheet getting trapped in an aft seat. It can happen to anyone!

Regards Neil

Wasn't sure if you were asking me or David.... but...

The only time I came scarily close to a capsize, it was caused by exactly that. The figure 8 stop knot caught in one of the floorboard slats/slots. I keep a "hawk eye" on it now trying to always keep it in front of me where I can see it and filling in the slot with something when I sail.

With Roger Barne's method of switching the sheeting from one stern quarter to the other, common in Brittany in the olde days, it would seem that the opportunities for this happening might come along more often if one's hawk eye is looking elsewhere as things are getting interesting?

[davidladd]

Hi DP, i’ve had too many other things taking my energy lately to post. But, I’m finally getting back to a little boat work. I think the Ilur is a great boat and my capsize was all my fault. However, because it has no designed ballast, it does seem likely that without any other person or any other loads it is prudent to add some kind of ballast. I’ve added 25lbs of lead on each side of the CB case in the bilge. My sailing back ground is in larger boats. I had forgotten how important it is to be proactive in dinghy sailing. I had the full sail up and it should have been reefed. When i decided to gybe around i didn’t move fast enough to the new “windward”side. When the wind gust hit the gybed sail i was trapped on the lee side with the boom and main sheet and the heel of the boat keeping me from getting to the windward side. I should have either moved sooner or sat down on the floorboards.
i also learned that i needed a better way to bail the boat. I now have a larger bail scoop and i also wanted either a manual whale pump or an electric bilge pump. I decided to start with an electric bilge pump. I already have a battery box made with (2) 30ah Lithium Iron Phosphate batteries and i’m working on a base plate to sit it on. The base plate is notched to utilize the boat design which will keep the base plate from moving much. I still have to work out how to keep the battery box itself from moving during a capsize. My plan is to mount a high flow bilge pump on a piece of wood and place it in the bilge. I’ll have a flex hose attached which i can point over the side as i switch it on. Michael Storer’s website has a video of a version of this.

[neil.henderson]

If you look at one of Roger Barnes's videos where he talks about the internal layout of his Ilur you will see that he has a large battery which powers his navigation device and his bilge pump. A good idea imho.

Regards Neil

[Geftb]

Hey David, congratulations on your build and first sail! What a wonderful little boat.
Its good to learn some tough lessons straight up, no one was hurt, no damages. Might save your but later
A suggestion, can you have the bilge pump hose (outlet) permanently fixed? That with a float switch.
The bigger the pump the better! Go massive. Put the pump under the floorboards if you can and fix the float switch up above the boards so its not going off Willy nilly, only if you get swamped. The rest you can get with a bailer.
Great effort all round.
steve

[WI-Tom]

With Roger Barne's method of switching the sheeting from one stern quarter to the other, common in Brittany in the olde days, it would seem that the opportunities for this happening might come along more often if one's hawk eye is looking elsewhere as things are getting interesting?

I use this method of sheeting myself--it's practically a necessity for a boomless rig, as the sheeting point needs to be as far aft, and as far outboard, as you can get it. A traveler would work, but a rigid bar type traveler prevents the tiller from pivoting up to save space when needed, so I don't use one.

You could run the sheet through a ring that slides on a line led over the tiller from gunwale to gunwale, but the slack in the line (necessary to reach over the tiller) creates an inverted V shape, and the ring gets caught in the V and won't slide far enough outboard for proper sheeting angles.

That said, I don't think it's any more likely to get your sheets in a tangle with this method--and perhaps less so. Certainly less so than with a double mainsheet (like a jib), which would be another option to get proper sheeting angles. It's a simple turn-and-pivot move that you get used to pretty quickly. I rarely miss a tack (and when I do, it's probably sailing reefed with enough wave action to stop the bow).

Gybing in heavy winds is the one place where a little extra caution is needed, I've found. I usually deal with that by running a line over the tiller so I have a traveler as a back-up. Then I can unhook the sheet from the cleat on the windward side, and simply let it slide over on the traveler as far as it will go without needing to lean to leeward to hook the sheet (not ideal, but good enough until I have a moment to hook it on the cleat farther outboard).

I just don't think this method is any more prone to mistakes than center sheeting. It's different, that's all. You have to spin around backwards, but once you have the timing down, it's simple.

Tom

[Dinghy Pipedreams]

Thanks David for your detailed "report". My 40 yrs. of experience is in larger boats as well and with human ballasted craft it's always useful to see or be reminded of the "cascade effect" of things!
When I scuba dived regularly it was encouraged practice to debrief and discuss what went well and...wrong on each dive. It made everyone safer and the same goes for small boat skippers. Looking forward to hearing how your changes work out for you. Still "knocked out" by the beautiful work you did building her.
Cheers.
DP

[Ian Fleming]

What a wonderful and detailed story, David! I got my Ilur kit several years ago from Vivier's Canadian partner Louis Ducharme in Quebec, and with one thing & another, delayed getting started. I know have the keel in place and the first few pairs of planks glued together and will tackle them soon. My workshop is heated, but it's at my lakeside cabin 200 km north of the city where I have to at least sometimes show up at work. For a couple more years...

I had asked Louis and Francois whether there was a good reason not to use a weighted centreboard (like the Beg-Meil) and the response was that it wouldn't make much difference, the stability is mostly from hull shape.

I might start a thread, not to show off my ugly botched amateurish work, but to ask questions of the bright & experienced folks on this forum.

Ian Fleming
Saskatoon (or Delaronde Lake)
Saskatchewan, Canada

[davidladd]

Hi Ian, its good o see another Ilur build and I’m glad you decided to post your progress. If it wasn’t for all those who posted before me i would have had a much harder time. After watching all of Roger Barnes’s videos i assumed the Ilur was super stable. I’m no naval architect so i can only agree with Louis and Francois. However, i have been attuned to other Ilur builders who said their Ilurs where more stable (when sailing alone) when they added 50-100 lbs of weight around the centerboard case. I also heard Roger Barnes say that when he had a crew on board he could keep more sail up in stronger winds. My first sail ended in a capsize because i had to much sail up. When i added 50 lbs under the floorboards around the centerboard case it felt moe stable. When i get a chance to go sailing again i’ll put 100 lbs under my floor board. My take is that when sailing alone the skipper must be very aware of wind conditions and be ready to reef sooner than later. With a crew or with some added weight the skipper can keep more sail up.
With the current Ilur design using shock cord to keep the centerboard down and up it isn’t possible to add weight to the centerboard. The shock cord would never be able to hold the centerboard up.

[Ian Fleming]

I think I'm likely going to add at least 20 and maybe up to 30 kg of lead to the centreboard. Right down low. A steel plate would have a much higher centre of mass which wouldn't be that much lower than the centre of mass of the hull itself. But lead right at the bottom can't hurt. I did make my centreboard case a bit wider - 29 mm ID, the idea being I would add lead, shape to a modified NACA foil and then glass it. I'm not a naval architect, but I do have several degrees in Civil Engineering. Mechanics, moments etc are common to both! I'll modify the centreboard arrangements a bit since the shock cord method isn't going to be sufficient as you correctly note. I will likely put some lead in the rudder blade also, probably 6-8 kg... But all that's a long way off...

I expect it's spring there. My sister in Victoria always torments me with photos of cherry blossoms in march, usually after we've had another bloody blizzard. Enjoy sailing that beautiful boat! I won't be launched until spring of '25 I don't expect...

[davidladd]

I look forward to your design to lift the leaded centerboard. I can sure see the merit in the old designs.

my wife and i just came back from 2 days in Victoria. There are in fact lots of blooming cherry trees. We had 2 days of clear sunny skies there. 1 1/2 hours drive gets us to Port Angles then a 90 minute ferry ride drops us in Victoria.

[Toxophilite]

My understanding is that Roger Barnes has many many feet of anchor chain under his floorboards. On my Gartside 130 I have an old stout deep wooden drawer full of a spare grapnel, some chain and spare oarlocks, tools and other bits and bobs that weighs about 25lbs, dead centre under my centre thwart. Stiffens her up a bit. I think adding internal ballast is more versatile than permanently adding external weight myself. You can usually accomplish it with necessary/useful gear too.
Spring here in Vancouver for a few days. Did some crazy sailing in the last 3 days. However it is back to monsoon right now.

[Ian Fleming]

Yes, Victoria is mild, balmy and a lovely city - for an american it must seem like a journey to another (more civilised) planet but we love cross-country skiing all winter, and I still play hockey a couple times per week and you can't do that there... So we'll stay here in the "Paris of the Prairies" The weighted centreboard will just lift with a 3:1 or 5:1 purchase - essentially like the steel plate that François specifies for the Beg-Meil, except its centre of gravity will be lower. At least that's the plan. I just spent way too much money at Lee Valley on more clamps and assorted other woodworking stuff and will head back north to the cabin (workshop) - undergrad courses at the UoS are almost over and then I can spend more time up north - I can manage most of my grad students and research projects without being physically present - one benefit of all the CovIdiocy is that we're all way better at MSTeams etc....

[neil.henderson]

I put lead inside the centreboard of my Iain Oughtred Gannet - not part of the design but I wanted a bit more stability as it's a light boat with plenty of sail. All seems to work well so far - I use a couple of blocks to lift the board up. I have also added lead to the board for the Caledonia Yawl I am building - the says of me making smooth high speed athletic movements around the hull are no more - so I spill wind and add lead :-)

Regards Neil

[Clinton B Chase]

What we do at Chase SMall Craft is buy lead sheet/plate - can be bought up to 3/4" thick and let it into the centerboard. We just did this for a Stir-Ven 19 being built out in Cali. We vacuum pressed the layers together and put the very heavy blank on the CNC table to shape.
Came out sweet!

[davidladd]

Having experience building and sailing small boats sure helps. I had experience sailing large leaded keel boats but being my first small boat build i followed the design. Earlier designs of the Ilur and the one Roger Barnes sails had a leaded rudder and centerboard with manual lift and drop lines. If i had the experience i might have added lead to my build. As always with this forum its good to get different view points. With experience and input from other builders you can build a boat that works for you.

[SneakySnowCrab]

May I inquire on where you got the excellent (custom?) boat cover? We are looking for a more permanent solution on our ilur.

[davidladd]

Hi SneakySnowCrab, I think you must have looked at another Ilur pic of a boat cover. I don’t have a boat cover. I did however have a custom bag made for my boom/yard/sail combo from a local canvas shop which really helps keep all that together.