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Thread: An Ilur in Hansville

  1. #36
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    Default Re: An Ilur in Hansville

    Each of the spar stands was custom cut to match the section of spar it was going to support.

    I have been using System Three and their fillers, mostly wood flour, for years. Definitely do a test assembly of the spars before you put any glue on them- just to get a feel for how they go together. Also pick a cool day and use a slow setting hardener to give yourself some time. My method is to wet out the staves then mix a thickened batch. This goes into a small ziplock bag which then has a corner nipped off (much like a pastry decorating bag) and I pipe a bead into the vee. I also like to use packing tape on two of the staves creating two halves so I can shape a plug for the ends and check for glue-starved joints on the inside before final assembly.
    Steve

    If you would have a good boat, be a good guy when you build her - honest, careful, patient, strong.
    H.A. Calahan

  2. #37
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    Default Re: An Ilur in Hansville


    Found a picture
    Steve

    If you would have a good boat, be a good guy when you build her - honest, careful, patient, strong.
    H.A. Calahan

  3. #38
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    Default Re: An Ilur in Hansville

    Hi David. Assuming we can all actually get near enough to one another, I'll be happy to tag along with Steve to provide more mast help. He and I live just a couple of miles from one another. When I built my B/M mast I had two helpers for the glue-up. They spread most of the goo while I kept busy mixing fresh batches. We used my regular stuff: West epoxy with the slow hardener. I used microfibers plus wood dust for the thickener. We had no problem doing all the gluing and clamping within the allotted time.

    One thing I was particularly careful of was the alignment of the mast jig. I used my laser for alignment. Then I made sure that all the holding jigs couldn't be kicked or knocked loose. Like Steve, I used a lot of SS hose clamps. I also used big zip ties along with the gripping tool that is made for them. Home Depot sells this. I would have like to have had more of the hose clamps. The grip tighter and can be loosed and moved if desired. Cover everything with plastic sheeting!

    Jeff

  4. #39
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    Default Re: An Ilur in Hansville

    Hey

    Not much to add to the advice above except that you should follow it all. I was unhappy with zip ties - I couldn't get them tight enough. I wish that I had splurged on more hose clamps, even though I will never use them again. Yes to helpers. Yes to the pastry bag. Yes to careful dry run. All the things I didn't do! My only saving grace was that it was right around 50 degrees when I did it, so the epoxy took a long time to kick.

    Looks great so far.

    Kenny
    Almost everything about boats involves so much more time and money than one anticipates that rational and accurate planning will deter even starting. Ian McColgin

  5. #40
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    Default Re: An Ilur in Hansville

    I recently did a birds mouth mast glue up for the Oughtred Penny Fee by myself; not by choice but because of the corona virus stuff. I made 6 "cradles" that were not sized or shaped except to be large enough to accept the assembly. I used a dozen "hose clamps", but the ones I used were for laundry dryer vent hoses. These have a "flip up" adjusting screw which makes installation much easier and faster.
    I took the advice of a West System tech and mixed several small batches of epoxy rather than fewer large batches. It's important to understand the difference between pot life and working time. I also did several dry assemblies and had a separate "jig" to hold the next strip to make the "wet out" of that next strip faster and easier.
    I also found that after the 1st four strips were assembled in the cradles, putting the plugs in the ends helped finish the assembly without everything collapsing (like it did during dry assembly.) I also used reinforced packing tape between the dryer/hose clamps stretched as tight as I could.
    Also I used a cheapo one inch wide china bristle paint brush to apply the epoxy; I cut the ends of the brisltes off to make it a little stiffer. And I tried to keep the thickened epoxy fluid enough (ketchup consistancy) to brush on quickly and easily.
    It turned out pretty well...
    have fun, stay well
    pvg

  6. #41
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    Default Re: An Ilur in Hansville

    Great work

  7. #42
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    Default Re: An Ilur in Hansville

    Thanks for all the info Steve. That last picture explains that last sentence.

  8. #43
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    Default Re: An Ilur in Hansville

    Thanks pvg, I appreciate all the info I can get.

  9. #44
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    Default Re: An Ilur in Hansville

    Because this is my first boat build I ordered a complete kit from Clint Chase. The benefit is that all the timber is sourced and provided. However, that means that everything longer than 8’ has to be epoxy scarfed back to its original length. This has taken more time than I thought because I’m only doing 2 scarfs a day. Tomorrow I start to scarf the birdsmouth mast staves together. Because the mast is over 16’ that means there are 3 scarfs per stave. Unless I build another scarf jig I’ll be doing this for the next 6 days. In the mean time I’ll try to figure out and make the alignment jigs for glue up and also figure out how I can lengthen my 12’ strong back another 4’. After all the staves are scarfed I’ll still need to taper the staves. Final glue up of the staves will be awhile.

  10. #45
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    Default Re: An Ilur in Hansville

    To get over 16' I think you should only need 2 scarfs per stave. But that doesn't make the job any more inviting, does it?

    Keep going, I'm going to be about 6 weeks or so behind you on my CIY 16 build - but I do have most of the interior components assembled and some finished. I almost took on the Ilur myself before I backed off to the more practical for my use CIY 16.

    So far for me Clint's kit has been spectacularly done. I'm really looking forward to see how your project turns out. Keep plodding through these tedious tasks, the reward is coming!
    I swear I'm half done.

  11. #46
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    Default Re: An Ilur in Hansville

    As Steve’s post above shows, the foot and mast head bits will add at least a foot of the total mast length, and the mast foot portion could potentially be considerably longer—the bury from foot to partner is about two feet, so your bird’s mouth mast section can take those lengths into account as you plan your scarfs.

    2633D841-B82A-44A0-AFBD-70CEAC525B1D.jpg

  12. #47
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    Default Re: An Ilur in Hansville

    Hi John, I followed your build and really appreciate all that I learned from it. I am still conflicted about how to finish the mast head and foot. I wasn’t going to build the mast until later, but because I have the strong back clear to use as a base I am leaning towards the mast glue up now. I was going to make the mast head and foot as you did, and I think I can do it, but it will take me a long time. I don’t have a mast head sheave yet and will have to find and order one if I am to duplicate yours. Clint has a different approach which is to bolt on a Ronstan sheave onto to the mast head (laterally). This would be much easier, but I’m not sure how strong it would be. Then, there is also Geoff Kerr’s approach to just drill a bee hole and shape it to cut down on the rub.
    I’m not sure what to do! As for the foot, do I really need a separate shaped piece, or just a plug and then shape the end of the spruce staves to form the bottom mast step fit? Clint provided an internal mast partner plug. I think that plug is long enough that I could cut off a piece to use as a mast foot plug which I can then shape for the mast step.

  13. #48
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    Default Re: An Ilur in Hansville

    Quote Originally Posted by davidladd View Post
    Then, there is also Geoff Kerr’s approach to just drill a bee hole and shape it to cut down on the rub.
    I use a simple bee hole for the halyard on my boat's standing lugsail--works well, dead simple to make. You do have to make sure not to use a halyard that's too thin. I did that at first, and it started to cut a trench in the groove and cause a little binding. Easily fixed by moving to a larger diameter halyard, though obviously that wasn't needed for line strength.

    Tom
    You don't have to be prepared as long as you're willing to suffer the consequences.

    www.tompamperin.com

  14. #49
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    Default Re: An Ilur in Hansville

    Thanks Tom, what size halyard did you end up with?

  15. #50
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    Default Re: An Ilur in Hansville

    I used a Dyneema line at first, nominally 1/4" but actually noticeably thinner than that, and very stiff. Not good. The stiffness was as much of a problem as the diameter, now that I think of it--it tended to saw a groove rather than sliding easily.

    I think the one I use now is a different non-stretch, also nominally 1/4", but actually a bit thicker. And much less stiff.

    Tom
    You don't have to be prepared as long as you're willing to suffer the consequences.

    www.tompamperin.com

  16. #51
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    Default Re: An Ilur in Hansville

    Tom- I wonder if you were using "Stayset" dyneema? That is very stiff, having been treated at the factory to take any residual stretch out, the non-set variety is very soft and floppy but has a more "give" initially. I used a dyneema main halyard on the KDI, my only real complaint was how hard it is to grab the line, especially when wet. Marianita's peak halyard is mostly dyneema but transitions to a nice braided line for the part you haul on.

    The bee-hole creates a wear point, paint or varnish will get worn right off. Bothers some folks but not others. For a small sail I think it works just fine.
    Steve

    If you would have a good boat, be a good guy when you build her - honest, careful, patient, strong.
    H.A. Calahan

  17. #52
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    Default Re: An Ilur in Hansville

    One could line the bee hole with copper tubing with it's ends flared. Or a piece of G10, or graphite filled epoxy. It's not a "simple" bee hole then, of course. But some enjoy fussing with those sorts of details.

    Jeff

  18. #53
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    Default Re: An Ilur in Hansville

    Looks to be moving along nicely. I used to live in Hanseville by Point no Point, now I live over the hood canal bridge. Once the disaster is over feel free to hit me up if you need manual labor, I'd love to see this thing at the Wooden Boat Show.
    Ron Jones

  19. #54
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    Default Re: An Ilur in Hansville

    Quote Originally Posted by stromborg View Post
    Tom- I wonder if you were using "Stayset" dyneema? That is very stiff, having been treated at the factory to take any residual stretch out...
    That sounds right. Not the correct line for the job at all. Way too stiff.

    Tom
    You don't have to be prepared as long as you're willing to suffer the consequences.

    www.tompamperin.com

  20. #55
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    Default Re: An Ilur in Hansville

    Thanks Ron, I live 1.5 miles from point no point light house just off the Hansville Hwy.

  21. #56
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    Default Re: An Ilur in Hansville

    I’m glad to see the posts about different mast head rigs. I’m still not sure what to do. I was planning on building the mast head that John Hartman did, but Clint Chase sent me a Ronstan side mount block to use as a halyard sheave. It was only rated for a 1/4 line and I know from experience that 1/4 line is hard to pull on as I have gotten older. So I got the next size bigger which can take up to 3/8” halyard. I like the look of the inside mast head sheave they Mr. Hartman built, but it sure seems a lot easier to just mount a block instead. I know that what ever someone uses is ok, but does anyone have any experience with using a side mounted sheave block as a mast head halyard?

  22. #57
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    Default Re: An Ilur in Hansville

    I got a late start today. After epoxying up 2 mast stave joints I built an extension for my box strongback. Because my garage floor isn't even and because I may have the box on different stands I made the foot brace into a simple adjustable foot where all I need to do is get it level and then clamp it.
    Attached Images Attached Images

  23. #58
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    Default Re: An Ilur in Hansville

    Quote Originally Posted by davidladd View Post
    ...does anyone have any experience with using a side mounted sheave block as a mast head halyard?
    David, I have used that set up on several small balanced lugs, it worked fine. The Ilur has a big enough sail, and a long enough yard that it will have some heft. Whatever set up you choose should be free running and easy on the hands.
    Last edited by John hartmann; 05-07-2020 at 08:13 AM.

  24. #59
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    Default Re: An Ilur in Hansville

    Quote Originally Posted by John hartmann View Post
    David, I have used that set up on several small balanced lugs, it worked fine. The Ilur has a big enough sail, and a long enough yard that it will have some heft. Whatever set up you choose should be free running and easy on the hands.
    That's a good point--my own sail is substantially smaller (85 sq ft) and the yard is quite dainty and lightweight. Perhaps a block or sheave rather than a bee hole is the better choice for an Ilur's rig?

    Tom
    You don't have to be prepared as long as you're willing to suffer the consequences.

    www.tompamperin.com

  25. #60
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    Default Re: An Ilur in Hansville

    Looking forward to seeing your boat come together, David.

    I built the in- masthead sheave as shown above, and I love it! It is a fiddly thing to build, but worth it IMO. I had a bee-hole in my Whilly Boat mast, and I ended up lashing a block through the hole for less friction. Sometimes you want that yard up or down in a hurry!

    Mike

  26. #61
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    Default Re: An Ilur in Hansville

    Thanks for the input Mike, I have a few questions about the design.
    What is the thickness of the plywood?
    Would it be better to to have the sheave sized so that the diameter at the bottom of the sheave groove is the same diameter as the mast? That exposes the outer edge of the sheave but it would allow the halyard to run without hitting the edge of the mast.
    Would it be better to lower the sheave in the mortise and to have just enough space above the sheave to allow for the halyard. Decreasing the open space of the mortise would give the fab more strength.

    Could you explain how you rounded the plug end of the fab?

    Mr. Hartman can join in with these questions too.

  27. #62
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    Default Re: An Ilur in Hansville

    I used a 2” tufnol sheave, sized for 10mm line, and 12mm ply, with the rest either doug fir
    (foot) or larch (masthead). The insert portions of mast head and step were turned on a lathe, and the octoganal of the top portion of the mast head was cut on a table saw. Hope that helps.

  28. #63
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    Default Re: An Ilur in Hansville

    Thanks John, With the sheave diameter of 2” doesn’t the halyard drag on the cheeks of the block? Or is the 2” diameter at the bottom of the sheave groove? Do you have a US source for a tufnol sheave? I don’t have a lathe so I’m not sure how I’d round the plug end.

  29. #64
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    Default Re: An Ilur in Hansville

    At the bottom of this page in my build thread, is some info. Looks like I got a 60 mm Tufnol sheave from R+W rope in New Bedford. I used 1/4 inch ply.
    http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...=an+ilur+in+ri

    Mike

  30. #65
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    Default Re: An Ilur in Hansville

    Thanks Mike, that helps.i had already gone through your posts several times, but I have also gone through every Ilur post and I forget which one has what info. I just ordered a sheave from R&H. I printed your dwg. But it isn’t to scale. I can probably figure out the dims. for the sheave center hole and how much space is on top and on the bottom of the sheave, but if you want to share some dwg. details that would be great. With the sheave 12 mm thick and the spacers at 5/8, that leaves about 3 mm gap and about a 1mm per side for a washer. Do you find that a washer is necessary? Or could I decrease the 5/8” spacer thickness by a few mils a just not use a washer?

  31. #66
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    Default Re: An Ilur in Hansville

    Mike, it doesn’t look like your fab followed the drawing you posted. Is there any way you could share your fab drawing? You shifted the center of the sheave down with more space above than below the sheave. Your fab is what I would like to do.

  32. #67
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    Default Re: An Ilur in Hansville

    Just to provide another way to do it...

    IMG_3287.jpg

    This is the way John Brooks designed the main halyard sheave for the Somes Sound (16' ballast keel sloop). I made this sheave from a piece of UHMW that I had. I think it's about 2 1/2" dia.

    Jeff

  33. #68
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    Default Re: An Ilur in Hansville

    Here you go David. I still had my drawing which is a little different from the one in Vivier's plans. And a few photos. I like Jeff's solution up above too!

    I have to say I love having a sheave! I did put a couple of hdpe washers that I made with a hole saw in. But tufnol is pretty slippery, maybe not necc.

    drawng.jpg

    mast tip.jpg

    tip.jpg

    unnamed.jpg

    Mike

  34. #69
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    Default Re: An Ilur in Hansville

    Thanks again Mike, just to clarify what I said earlier, from what I can see from your pictures, your finished product isn’t quite what your drawing shows. Take a look at where the center axis of the sheave is. The drawing has it at 3” from the top, but the end product looks more like 3 3/4” down. I am more than likely to make this and I’ll try to match your finished product. Except, I am thinking of lowering the whole sheave by 1/2” more just to give it more material above the sheave. That places the center of the sheave down at 4” from the top. I’ll also shorten up the 5/8 spacers to reduce the total gap, but allowing enough space to change from a 60 to a 70 mm sheave in the future. Lastly I’ll probably Leave more material on the plug end to allow about 8” inside if that works. Let me know if my idea is off.

  35. #70
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    Default Re: An Ilur in Hansville

    I don't have much to report. I'm still gluing up the mast staves. I have 2 more days to go to have them all glued. In the mean time I'm planning and making the alignment blocks. Because the mast taper is in mils. most of the taper stations were not transferable to non-metric hole saws. After adding 7/16" as per Clint Chase's instructions I decided to make the alignment holes using standard hole dimensions 3", 3 1/2", and 4". I used my diminished math skills to calculate where on the mast taper that these hole sizes would line up with the mast taper. My plan is to measure out there placement on the strongback and then make sure the mast is placed so that the alignment blocks are where they should fit to the mast at my calculations. I am also roughing out a mast head fabrication to insert a mast head sheave. When I get the sheave I'll epoxy it all together and see if that is still what I want to do.
    Attached Images Attached Images

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