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Thread: An Ilur in Hansville

  1. #631
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    Default Re: An Ilur in Hansville

    That shape looks great :-)

    Regards Neil

  2. #632
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    Default Re: An Ilur in Hansville

    Had to take a few days off for domestic chores like removing a toilet because my wife one in a million accidentally flushed down the toilet paper roll holder pin. And a few other chores as well. Iím working on the rudder pintle and Gidgon placement and trying to meet all the dimensional requirements. Lots of Ilur builders have done this, but not many have shared how. I wedged the boat support to where it was as level as I could get and measured at the transom to where I felt I could get a reasonable centerline. Then I used the rudder placement drawing I got from Clint Chase that shows where the pintles and gudgons should be placed. I taped them all on and taped on a 1/2Ē spacer on top to simulate a 1/2Ē clearance for the tiller and then fiddled with it until I was sort of sure where it would all go. Now I have to sort out the best process to get it all on and lined up. IĎll start by placing a screw in the bottom hole of the bottom pintle, use a 3/8Ē rod to make sure the gudgons are in line and screw down the lower gudgon. Then use the 3/8Ē rod to line up the upper gudgon and screw that down. Then place the rudder on the lower pintle, place the upper pintle under the upper gudgon and after making sure itís all in line and moves freely, screw that down at the upper holes. Then I can come back and put in the two upper screws on the lower pintle and the lower screw on the upper pintle. Itís just a plan, but you have to start somewhere. I thought I had a 3/8Ē brass rod, but it was 5/16. So now I have to wait for the 3/8Ē rod to get here.

  3. #633
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    Default Re: An Ilur in Hansville

    The pintles and gudgons have been on for a few days now and it wasnít as hard as I thought it would be. I want to keep going and work on the rudder head, but it has gotten so cold and wet here that working in the garage isnít much fun. Besides being to cold for epoxy and paint work. But, I just finished dropping down the ceiling and doing a super insulating job on my well house and decided to build a mini epoxy both inside it. I think I can at least get some more epoxy work done.
    Attached Images Attached Images

  4. #634
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    Default Re: An Ilur in Hansville

    if you hold your phone horizontal for your pics, I think you'll find they will all stay upright here

  5. #635
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    Default Re: An Ilur in Hansville

    Nice lightweight rudder!

  6. #636
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    Default Re: An Ilur in Hansville

    Thanks Gray, I think I knew that and then forgot. Sometimes I’ve taken a landscape and it still came through wrong.

    my epoxy both in the well house worked well. I’ll be able to add some meat to that lightweight rudder.

  7. #637
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    Default Re: An Ilur in Hansville

    I use the rod in the stem all the time, for mooring, docking, etc. I find it both practical and elegant. If you want to add cleats, put some on the quarters! I keep planning on knocking off the "thumb" cleats on my Ilur, and putting in proper cleats that you can use for docking.
    Quote Originally Posted by davidladd View Post
    Lots of good info on the bow cleat. For me, the only reason for the bow cleat is to tie off the bow at a dock and for anchoring. The rod through the stem doesnít seem very practical and I mainly did it because itís part of the Ilur design. The Ilur deck is pretty small and a cleat takes up a lot of room. I can see how it could snag lines. Roger Barnes has cleats on the port & stbd inwales just aft of the deck and pointing inboard which he uses as dock tie downs and for anchoring. Maybe thatís the way to go.

  8. #638
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    Default Re: An Ilur in Hansville

    Hi photocurio, thanks for your input. Iíll have to try out using the stem rod when the time comes. I still plan on adding cleats near the aft quarter and slightly aft of the bow to hang fenders.

    I worked on positioning and fastening the rudder pivot block that is part of the Ilur plan. Trying to meet the full up and full down stops. I also made a template of the inner support so Iíd know where to run screws in the outer cheek side and the rudder pivot block.

  9. #639
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    Default Re: An Ilur in Hansville

    Quote Originally Posted by photocurio View Post
    I use the rod in the stem all the time, for mooring, docking, etc. I find it both practical and elegant. If you want to add cleats, put some on the quarters! I keep planning on knocking off the "thumb" cleats on my Ilur, and putting in proper cleats that you can use for docking.
    DO NOT put cleats on the quarters! UNLESS you are 200% sure they won't foul up a mainsheet!
    Clinton B. Chase
    Portland, Maine

    http://tinyurl.com/myboats

  10. #640
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    Default Re: An Ilur in Hansville

    Hi Clint, I think this may have come up in a past post when talking about putting a cleat on the bow. Is it ok to put cleats at the fore and aft quarters with the cleats on the inwales and the horns facing inboard?

  11. #641
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    Default Re: An Ilur in Hansville

    It might be ok...if they are inboard, but I think they will catch something at some point. I don't have a solution---Ed had something to say....
    Clinton B. Chase
    Portland, Maine

    http://tinyurl.com/myboats

  12. #642
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    Default Re: An Ilur in Hansville

    I'd agree, they might one day catch and that might be once enough. In typical Breton fashion though getting two uses would be the fishermans way....

    This picture of the same rig on a 28/30fter in the Morbihan back in the day shows the rear quarter cleats are symmetrical for use when tied up...30 people/ 2 tons to the Church on Ilur Island, Morbihan and no transom drag!. Zoom in for better detail.

    I'd deleted it 'coz I thought I was thread drifting and it's up to you. Whenever in doubt, stick to plan A.

    https://rechercher.patrimoines-archi...rotation=0.000
    Last edited by Edward Pearson; 11-10-2021 at 03:34 PM.

  13. #643
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    Default Re: An Ilur in Hansville

    As far as I can see the only reason for "thumb cleats" is if you use your boat for fishing, and you toss gear over the side, such as lobster or crab pots. The thumb cleats won't snag your gear. I don't see why normal quarter cleats on an Ilur would foul the mainsheet any more than any other sailboat.

    And if they do foul the sheet, then no big deal: you can cut off half of your wooden quarter cleats and make them into thumb cleats.
    Quote Originally Posted by Clinton B Chase View Post
    DO NOT put cleats on the quarters! UNLESS you are 200% sure they won't foul up a mainsheet!

  14. #644
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    Default Re: An Ilur in Hansville

    I thought I'd share how I rig my Ilur, since you are getting close to that point.


    A hook is an easy way to fix the downhaul to the tack. If you use a fat line, you can tie the mast to the partner with a simple square knot. The red line is an old jib sheet from a 30' sloop. Its 1/2 inch sta-set. I love these old lines, because they hold knots so well. This has never failed in 4 seasons.

    BTW, when I said I moor the boat to the stem head, I mean I loop in the mooring pennant twice around the stemhead. When docking I loop the dock line around the stemhead, and then belay to the pin. For this reason a cleat on the foredeck would be handy, if you are not installing belaying pins.


    If your sail will be loose footed, a ring on the mainsheet is way easier to use than a rope loop.


    The loop-and-button is how I fix the sheet to the clew. The loop goes through the clew, and then the button goes through the loop. This has never failed. A low friction ring is perfect here for the sheet.


    Under way. This shows the sheet in use, a Huntingford's Helm Impeder to hold the tiller, a deckbox for holding drinks, sunscreen, etc, and keeper line on the transom to hold on to the rudder, just in case.

  15. #645
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    Default Re: An Ilur in Hansville

    I’ve never thought of myself as being all that creative. That’s why I like having as much input as I can get so I can see what others have done. But, in the end, as we build our own boats, even in the same class of boat, we should build and fit out our boats to make it our own creation for better or worse.

  16. #646
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    Default Re: An Ilur in Hansville

    I like David's approach to fitting the rudder with hardware - use the core pieces alone w/o the weight of the rudder.

    Peter - thanks for those details - I will be looking at the rigging kit I ship and will keep those ideas in mind!
    Clinton B. Chase
    Portland, Maine

    http://tinyurl.com/myboats

  17. #647
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    Default Re: An Ilur in Hansville

    Work has slowed way down with our current weather pattern. The wind has howled and the rains have poured down. Iím afraid to do epoxy work because I am relying on electricity to warm the space for the epoxy to set. I managed to get several coats of epoxy and epoxy/graphite on the inside cheeks of the rudder head. Itís hard to figure out the thicknessís so the rudder has a little clearance to swing free. The epoxy/graphite is a little thicker than the plain epoxy so Iíll have to add more layers of plain epoxy to thicken the upper section of the cheeks. Iím hoping that 3 coats of primer and paint will definitely make the upper part of the cheeks thick enough to counter the epoxy/graphite thickness of the rudder. Itís a slow go because Iím only getting one epoxy set a day. In between drying times I started making some cleats. I understand the potential of getting sail sheets caught on the cleats so Iíll wait until my rigging is done to see how the sheets could be affected by the cleats. I know that there isnít much chance of getting anything caught where Iíll put the forward cleats and there is probably not much chance of getting the main sheet caught on the aft cleats, but Iíll make sure before mounting them. I was going to use West Marine nylon cleats instead of wood because the wood ones are so expensive and I thought it would be to hard to make them. But, after checking out some vids and getting some drawings I decided I could give it a go. I have some roughed out and can start shaping them and see how they turn out.
    I want to say a few words about my band saw. I am so glad was was able to afford my 10Ē Rikon. It has really made this job easier. However, I kick myself for not changing the standard blade sooner. It came with a 5/16Ē blade and I would always get lots of chatter in the cut. When I replaced it with a 3/8Ē Timber wolf blade it is 100% Better and no chatter.
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  18. #648
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    Default Re: An Ilur in Hansville

    Making cleats is great fun I reckon and the timber ones (I use Spotted Gum) just look wonderful.

    I have mounted cleats under the carlins in at least one boat I built - especially for fixing fenders to the boat. Seems to work reasonably well though deckhands find them hard to find :-)

    Regards Neil

  19. #649
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    Default Re: An Ilur in Hansville

    I really enjoyed knocking up some cleats David.

    They were a nice mix of the ergonomic organic and functional that makes boatbuilding so enjoyable.

    I found some blank drawings online and amended them by eye according to the size I was after.
    I started out too small with some samples and ended up with these below after some testing.
    There's two in ash for for the halyards on the mast and one in sapele to take the weight of the mainsheet on the rear of the centreboard case when needed.
    Some more might be in the offing for an anchor line cleat on the foredeck and maybe for some on inboard the stern quarters.

    IMG-3387.jpg

  20. #650
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    Default Re: An Ilur in Hansville

    Quote Originally Posted by davidladd View Post
    I managed to get several coats of epoxy and epoxy/graphite on the inside cheeks of the rudder head. It’s hard to figure out the thickness’s so the rudder has a little clearance to swing free. The epoxy/graphite is a little thicker than the plain epoxy so I’ll have to add more layers of plain epoxy to thicken the upper section of the cheeks. I’m hoping that 3 coats of primer and paint will definitely make the upper part of the cheeks thick enough to counter the epoxy/graphite thickness of the rudder.
    I found that I needed 2-layers of glass between the upper rudder cheeks to provide enough clearance for the rudder blade to swing easily. I think that would work better than just trying to add plain epoxy.

    Tom
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  21. #651
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    Default Re: An Ilur in Hansville

    I laid down a layer of glass on the rudder cheek that will be screwed down and I may have enough clearance now for the rudder. But, it came to me that I was doing the rudder assembly 180 degrees backwards. For anyone starting the Ilur rudder job I believe this sequence may work out better.
    1) shape and finish the rudder so you know how thick it will be
    2) assemble the rudder head cheeks so that you have enough clearance for the rudder.
    3) assemble the top part of the rudder head so that it fits over the rudder head/cheeks assembly
    4) shape and fit the tiller so that it just fits into the top part of the rudder head.

    I’m working on shaping the rudder now and then I’ll see if I can get it glassed/epoxied, primed, and painted in this cold weather. Then I’ll get back to the rudder head/cheeks assembly.

  22. #652
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    Default Re: An Ilur in Hansville

    If you do get friction, all the more reason to use graphite-epoxy mixture inside the trunk and rudder case.
    Clinton B. Chase
    Portland, Maine

    http://tinyurl.com/myboats

  23. #653
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    Default Re: An Ilur in Hansville

    Among other work, I’m slowly shaping the rudder and centerboard. I’m down to 90% shaped, but taking it slowly. I don’t want to take off to much at the trailing edge which is about 3/16” thick at the end. To get the shape to 100% I’ll have to take it down at least 1/8” and maybe more which may be ok but it seems pretty thin to me. I'm also going slow because I haven’t decided yet how I’ll finish the rudder and centerboard. Geoff Kerr and a lot of other builders have epoxied, primed, and painted them except for wear areas which can be of a graphite/epoxy mix. I was going to paint the centerboard and the lower section of the rudder, and graphite epoxy mix at the wear section of the rudder. But, I’m having second thoughts. The other option is to graphite/epoxy mix the entire centerboard (except to paint the small portion that sticks up and out of the case), and the entire rudder. I can see some real advantages for this. The centerboard is completely under water and the rudder is almost entirely under water so no one is going to know how it’s finished. It will be much easier to just graphite/epoxy than trying to do some parts and then prime and paint other parts. But the main advantage is that if the rudder or centerboard get dinged up it would be much easier to repair and refinish with more graphite/epoxy mix. Maybe the graphite/epoxy mix might slide through the water better.

  24. #654
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    Default Re: An Ilur in Hansville

    Hi David,
    Just and idea for you - I wrap my centreboards in Dynel cloth which is soaked with epoxy - both sides. I do this for 2 reasons : a) my boards have lead in them and I want to have some form of wrapping around that to try and stop the lead falling out, and b) I believe dynel cloth is harder wearing than fibreglass mat (plus it bends better) and I try to protect the board.
    I've never had issues with friction around centreboards other than when they get jammed with sand or sticks, maybe this is because I weight them? The board in my Gannet is unpainted dynel cloth in epoxy - so far the fish have not complained!

    For my rudders I just make sure they are well sealed (I use very thin 2-part epoxy sealer) and then paint with enamel. Rudder blades always get dinged & scraped so I work on the basis that I'll need to sand & paint every 3-5 years...............

    Regards Neil
    p.s. I just shaped the stems & keelson on the CY I've started - exciting to see her shape emerging :-)

    p.p.s. don't thin that trailing edge too much (a tricky repair) - or are you racing?

  25. #655
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    Default Re: An Ilur in Hansville

    Quote Originally Posted by neil.henderson View Post
    For my rudders I just make sure they are well sealed (I use very thin 2-part epoxy sealer) and then paint with enamel. Rudder blades always get dinged & scraped so I work on the basis that I'll need to sand & paint every 3-5 years...............
    One advantage to graphite-epoxy coatings besides being slick and low friction, is that repairs are easier than paint since you are working on an epoxy surface, just add more epoxy w/ graphite. None of this "fill with epoxy..........spot prime, and repaint shenanigans!
    Clinton B. Chase
    Portland, Maine

    http://tinyurl.com/myboats

  26. #656
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    Default Re: An Ilur in Hansville

    I worked on shaping the centerboard and rudder a little bit at a time between the holiday and other chores. I had a template for the foil shape, but I just couldnít get it right. I finally decided it was good enough so I came up with a plan to glass the centerboard. I wanted to encase the hole board for strength but there is a challenge on how to hold the board. I didnít want to put screws in the ends which could be used to hold it so I came up with another idea that works for the Ilur CB. You can see from the pictures how I hung the board with a bolt through the pivot hole and then make a v notch stand to hold the board horizontal until I could get most of the glass wetted out, and then let the board hang while I finished the edges. It worked sort of, but I just could not get the glass to lay down at the lower front curve which is where the board could drag on something first. After the epoxy drys Iíll sand down the excess glass and see about running a strip of glass around the bottom edge.

  27. #657
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    Default Re: An Ilur in Hansville

    Looks good to me - and the edges are much smoother than mine :-) One question - will your board be weighted, and if not how will you plan to keep the board down? If you plan to use lines to keep it down just be careful about what will happen when that board hits something under water, wants to bounce up, and can't because of a holddown line........... I recently noticed that Ronstan make a cleat (CL257) that could be useful here as it does appear to release under load, though I should say that I haven't seen, or tried one. I use lead to weight the boards.

    Regards Neil

  28. #658
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    Default Re: An Ilur in Hansville

    A clever plan there David.
    I also glassed the board (and rudder) and did it one side at a time. It was a bit fiddly getting the glass to lay flat in places and some shaping of the edge material was needed but I liked the overlap of cloth it gave on the front surface.

  29. #659
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    Default Re: An Ilur in Hansville

    Hi Wayne, I thought of that process, but decided to do it with one whole cloth for the increased strength it would give the board. But, I get that overlapping the fore side is good too. I may run another strip of cloth down the fore side and bottom.

    Hi Neil, The Ilur plan doesn’t add any weights to the CB or rudder anymore. It uses a stiff bungy tied off on either side of the lower centerboard case and runs up and loops over the notch in the CB. There are carlins on the upper length of the CB case that hold the bungy either full up, full down, or mid way. So there is some give if the board runs aground.

  30. #660
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    Default Re: An Ilur in Hansville

    Have you fellows ever seen the common British solution to adding friction to a centreboard,which is in essence a short length of rubber hose-say 4-5 inches-attached to the board by a couple of long screws through a strip of metal?The screws are tightened to increase the friction by squashing the hose a bit or as a means of taking up the wear.Its something that has been in very common use for more than fifty years.


  31. #661
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    Default Re: An Ilur in Hansville

    Quote Originally Posted by neil.henderson View Post
    I recently noticed that Ronstan make a cleat (CL257) that could be useful here as it does appear to release under load, though I should say that I haven't seen, or tried one.
    I have these for the hold-down lines on both my unweighted centreboard and kick-up rudder on Fire-Drake. I can report they work as advertised when you hit something.
    Alex

    ďIt's only those who do nothing that make no mistakes, I suppose.Ē
    - Joseph Conrad, An Outcast of the Islands

    http://www.alexzimmerman.ca

  32. #662
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    Default Re: An Ilur in Hansville

    Quote Originally Posted by John Meachen View Post
    Have you fellows ever seen the common British solution to adding friction to a centreboard,which is in essence a short length of rubber hose-say 4-5 inches-attached to the board by a couple of long screws through a strip of metal?The screws are tightened to increase the friction by squashing the hose a bit or as a means of taking up the wear.Its something that has been in very common use for more than fifty years.
    I think this method of the rubber hose is ingenious but not required on the Ilur kit. The Ilur like a lot of Vivier's and my CB boats, uses a heavy, taught shock cord to swing the CB and keep it in place with the assistance of a shock cord cleat along the top of the trunk. ALso ingenious and Vivier's idea!
    Clinton B. Chase
    Portland, Maine

    http://tinyurl.com/myboats

  33. #663
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    Default Re: An Ilur in Hansville

    Quote Originally Posted by AJZimm View Post
    I have these for the hold-down lines on both my unweighted centreboard and kick-up rudder on Fire-Drake. I can report they work as advertised when you hit something.
    This is also a great idea, but these cleats don't ship in our Ilur kit because the rudder and CB work with the shock cord system.
    Clinton B. Chase
    Portland, Maine

    http://tinyurl.com/myboats

  34. #664
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    Default Re: An Ilur in Hansville

    My present boat uses a weighted board, but I'd change it to something non-weighted in hindsight. For one thing, I didn't get enough weight (I think). For another, it's difficult to judge how far down the board actually is--often, I find quite a bit of slack in the line when I go to pull it up, so the board doesn't stay down.

    Mainly, though, there's no easy way to force the board down if it should ever happen to get stuck. I prefer all of the various non-weighted options now that it's too late...

    Tom
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  35. #665
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    Default Re: An Ilur in Hansville

    Quote Originally Posted by AJZimm View Post
    I have these for the hold-down lines on both my unweighted centreboard and kick-up rudder on Fire-Drake. I can report they work as advertised when you hit something.
    With a sound like a rifle shot, in my experience. Quite unnerving.

    Tom
    Ponoszenie konsekwencji!

    www.tompamperin.com

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