An Ilur in Hansville

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  • WI-Tom
    Seaside Expat
    • Jan 2009
    • 15901

    Re: An Ilur in Hansville

    Originally posted by Dinghy Pipedreams
    With Roger Barne's method of switching the sheeting from one stern quarter to the other, common in Brittany in the olde days, it would seem that the opportunities for this happening might come along more often if one's hawk eye is looking elsewhere as things are getting interesting?
    I use this method of sheeting myself--it's practically a necessity for a boomless rig, as the sheeting point needs to be as far aft, and as far outboard, as you can get it. A traveler would work, but a rigid bar type traveler prevents the tiller from pivoting up to save space when needed, so I don't use one.

    You could run the sheet through a ring that slides on a line led over the tiller from gunwale to gunwale, but the slack in the line (necessary to reach over the tiller) creates an inverted V shape, and the ring gets caught in the V and won't slide far enough outboard for proper sheeting angles.

    That said, I don't think it's any more likely to get your sheets in a tangle with this method--and perhaps less so. Certainly less so than with a double mainsheet (like a jib), which would be another option to get proper sheeting angles. It's a simple turn-and-pivot move that you get used to pretty quickly. I rarely miss a tack (and when I do, it's probably sailing reefed with enough wave action to stop the bow).

    Gybing in heavy winds is the one place where a little extra caution is needed, I've found. I usually deal with that by running a line over the tiller so I have a traveler as a back-up. Then I can unhook the sheet from the cleat on the windward side, and simply let it slide over on the traveler as far as it will go without needing to lean to leeward to hook the sheet (not ideal, but good enough until I have a moment to hook it on the cleat farther outboard).

    I just don't think this method is any more prone to mistakes than center sheeting. It's different, that's all. You have to spin around backwards, but once you have the timing down, it's simple.

    Tom
    Ponoszenie konsekwencji!

    www.tompamperin.com

    Comment

    • Dinghy Pipedreams
      Member
      • Mar 2022
      • 82

      Re: An Ilur in Hansville

      Thanks David for your detailed "report". My 40 yrs. of experience is in larger boats as well and with human ballasted craft it's always useful to see or be reminded of the "cascade effect" of things!
      When I scuba dived regularly it was encouraged practice to debrief and discuss what went well and...wrong on each dive. It made everyone safer and the same goes for small boat skippers. Looking forward to hearing how your changes work out for you. Still "knocked out" by the beautiful work you did building her.
      Cheers.
      DP

      Comment

      • Ian Fleming
        Junior Member
        • Mar 2023
        • 5

        Re: An Ilur in Hansville

        What a wonderful and detailed story, David! I got my Ilur kit several years ago from Vivier's Canadian partner Louis Ducharme in Quebec, and with one thing & another, delayed getting started. I know have the keel in place and the first few pairs of planks glued together and will tackle them soon. My workshop is heated, but it's at my lakeside cabin 200 km north of the city where I have to at least sometimes show up at work. For a couple more years...

        I had asked Louis and Francois whether there was a good reason not to use a weighted centreboard (like the Beg-Meil) and the response was that it wouldn't make much difference, the stability is mostly from hull shape.

        I might start a thread, not to show off my ugly botched amateurish work, but to ask questions of the bright & experienced folks on this forum.

        Ian Fleming
        Saskatoon (or Delaronde Lake)
        Saskatchewan, Canada

        Comment

        • davidladd
          Senior Member
          • Jan 2020
          • 355

          Re: An Ilur in Hansville

          Hi Ian, its good o see another Ilur build and I’m glad you decided to post your progress. If it wasn’t for all those who posted before me i would have had a much harder time. After watching all of Roger Barnes’s videos i assumed the Ilur was super stable. I’m no naval architect so i can only agree with Louis and Francois. However, i have been attuned to other Ilur builders who said their Ilurs where more stable (when sailing alone) when they added 50-100 lbs of weight around the centerboard case. I also heard Roger Barnes say that when he had a crew on board he could keep more sail up in stronger winds. My first sail ended in a capsize because i had to much sail up. When i added 50 lbs under the floorboards around the centerboard case it felt moe stable. When i get a chance to go sailing again i’ll put 100 lbs under my floor board. My take is that when sailing alone the skipper must be very aware of wind conditions and be ready to reef sooner than later. With a crew or with some added weight the skipper can keep more sail up.
          With the current Ilur design using shock cord to keep the centerboard down and up it isn’t possible to add weight to the centerboard. The shock cord would never be able to hold the centerboard up.

          Comment

          • Ian Fleming
            Junior Member
            • Mar 2023
            • 5

            Re: An Ilur in Hansville

            I think I'm likely going to add at least 20 and maybe up to 30 kg of lead to the centreboard. Right down low. A steel plate would have a much higher centre of mass which wouldn't be that much lower than the centre of mass of the hull itself. But lead right at the bottom can't hurt. I did make my centreboard case a bit wider - 29 mm ID, the idea being I would add lead, shape to a modified NACA foil and then glass it. I'm not a naval architect, but I do have several degrees in Civil Engineering. Mechanics, moments etc are common to both! I'll modify the centreboard arrangements a bit since the shock cord method isn't going to be sufficient as you correctly note. I will likely put some lead in the rudder blade also, probably 6-8 kg... But all that's a long way off...

            I expect it's spring there. My sister in Victoria always torments me with photos of cherry blossoms in march, usually after we've had another bloody blizzard. Enjoy sailing that beautiful boat! I won't be launched until spring of '25 I don't expect...

            Comment

            • davidladd
              Senior Member
              • Jan 2020
              • 355

              Re: An Ilur in Hansville

              I look forward to your design to lift the leaded centerboard. I can sure see the merit in the old designs.

              my wife and i just came back from 2 days in Victoria. There are in fact lots of blooming cherry trees. We had 2 days of clear sunny skies there. 1 1/2 hours drive gets us to Port Angles then a 90 minute ferry ride drops us in Victoria.

              Comment

              • Toxophilite
                Senior Member
                • Nov 2010
                • 1612

                Re: An Ilur in Hansville

                My understanding is that Roger Barnes has many many feet of anchor chain under his floorboards. On my Gartside 130 I have an old stout deep wooden drawer full of a spare grapnel, some chain and spare oarlocks, tools and other bits and bobs that weighs about 25lbs, dead centre under my centre thwart. Stiffens her up a bit. I think adding internal ballast is more versatile than permanently adding external weight myself. You can usually accomplish it with necessary/useful gear too.
                Spring here in Vancouver for a few days. Did some crazy sailing in the last 3 days. However it is back to monsoon right now.

                Comment

                • Ian Fleming
                  Junior Member
                  • Mar 2023
                  • 5

                  Re: An Ilur in Hansville

                  Yes, Victoria is mild, balmy and a lovely city - for an american it must seem like a journey to another (more civilised) planet but we love cross-country skiing all winter, and I still play hockey a couple times per week and you can't do that there... So we'll stay here in the "Paris of the Prairies" The weighted centreboard will just lift with a 3:1 or 5:1 purchase - essentially like the steel plate that François specifies for the Beg-Meil, except its centre of gravity will be lower. At least that's the plan. I just spent way too much money at Lee Valley on more clamps and assorted other woodworking stuff and will head back north to the cabin (workshop) - undergrad courses at the UoS are almost over and then I can spend more time up north - I can manage most of my grad students and research projects without being physically present - one benefit of all the CovIdiocy is that we're all way better at MSTeams etc....

                  Comment

                  • neil.henderson
                    Senior Member
                    • May 2015
                    • 873

                    Re: An Ilur in Hansville

                    I put lead inside the centreboard of my Iain Oughtred Gannet - not part of the design but I wanted a bit more stability as it's a light boat with plenty of sail. All seems to work well so far - I use a couple of blocks to lift the board up. I have also added lead to the board for the Caledonia Yawl I am building - the says of me making smooth high speed athletic movements around the hull are no more - so I spill wind and add lead :-)

                    Regards Neil

                    Comment

                    • Clinton B Chase
                      Senior Member
                      • Mar 2005
                      • 2520

                      Re: An Ilur in Hansville

                      What we do at Chase SMall Craft is buy lead sheet/plate - can be bought up to 3/4" thick and let it into the centerboard. We just did this for a Stir-Ven 19 being built out in Cali. We vacuum pressed the layers together and put the very heavy blank on the CNC table to shape.
                      Came out sweet!
                      Clinton B. Chase
                      Portland, Maine

                      http://tinyurl.com/myboats

                      Comment

                      • davidladd
                        Senior Member
                        • Jan 2020
                        • 355

                        Re: An Ilur in Hansville

                        Having experience building and sailing small boats sure helps. I had experience sailing large leaded keel boats but being my first small boat build i followed the design. Earlier designs of the Ilur and the one Roger Barnes sails had a leaded rudder and centerboard with manual lift and drop lines. If i had the experience i might have added lead to my build. As always with this forum its good to get different view points. With experience and input from other builders you can build a boat that works for you.

                        Comment

                        • SneakySnowCrab
                          Junior Member
                          • Oct 2020
                          • 2

                          Re: An Ilur in Hansville

                          May I inquire on where you got the excellent (custom?) boat cover? We are looking for a more permanent solution on our ilur.

                          Comment

                          • davidladd
                            Senior Member
                            • Jan 2020
                            • 355

                            Re: An Ilur in Hansville

                            Hi SneakySnowCrab, I think you must have looked at another Ilur pic of a boat cover. I don’t have a boat cover. I did however have a custom bag made for my boom/yard/sail combo from a local canvas shop which really helps keep all that together.

                            Comment

                            • jeffcapeshop
                              Senior Member
                              • May 2015
                              • 158

                              I'm wondering how you chose the "mid" position for the shock cord guide? I don't have the means to insert the actual board right now, was just going to go for inline with the pin slot.. thanks!
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                              Comment

                              • davidladd
                                Senior Member
                                • Jan 2020
                                • 355

                                Hi Jeff,
                                To find the mid point I raised the boat high enough to let the CB run through its full up and down positions. With the bungy in place i measured the bottom of the CB in its full up and full down positions then placed it in its mid position. I held a block on each side of the CB and moved the blocks until the bungy held the CB in the mid position. I found that if i was to place the blocks in line with the CB slots the bungy sagged enough to make the CB much lower than the mid position. I don’t know how critical this is and it probably depends on how tight the bungy is.

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