An Ilur in Hansville

[Dinghy Pipedreams]

Thanks David. Sorry,I realize looking back at the pics that it was jpatrick's boat that was on the King trailer. I'll do a comparison looking at EZ Loader's site and King's again. Looks like I'd need a larger/longer trailer, probably.
Here's what I've got if anyone can advise regarding an Illur someday...? Wondered if a foot of overhang would be a problem and if the load capacity would be ok.
http://www.kingtrailers.com/trailers...l?catId=158082

David, I'm in awe of your work. You've done an awesome job! I too am now 70 and felt complete empathy with everything you've said regarding that! Thanks again.

[Rich Jones]

You've done a masterful job on that vessel.
Well done, sir.

[davidladd]

Hi DP, I think a foot of overhang would be ok, but after looking at the Kings I don’t think the bunks would sit on the boat because they are so far aft. At that spot the curve of the Ilur would be such that the bunks would not come in contact with the boat at all.
because the EZ load is longer and because it’s bunks are longer I have a short bit of bunk that just fits under the hull around the mid point fore and aft, but not aft.

[Toxophilite]

Lovely ! I'm a biog fan of the Illur, Stout, capable and shapely.
Are you not having belaying pins? Or are they on the way?
You should ask Roger barnes about his trailer . He seems to have his Illur setup dialled in.

[WI-Tom]

Wondered if a foot of overhang would be a problem

I trailer my boat with over a foot of overhang off the back of the trailer--no problems with that in 5 years yet, including drives up to 600 miles one way to launch.

That said, the keel of my boat is supported by a wide plank on the trailer that runs the full length. No rollers. That's easy with my boat, which has a flat keel with absolutely no rocker.

Tom

[gray duck]

For my shellback trailer I replaced the longitudinal on edge 2x4 bunks with 2x6s on edge with enough of a beveled curve cut out to match hull shape. You have more planks to deal with than the SB but with the keel well centered you should be able to get the bunks in good position (as in on one plank) because you can move them around to fit (x,y,z axis)

[davidladd]

Hi Toxophilite, The original plans for the Ilur have an eyebolt on the port and a belay pin on the starboard side of the mast partner. Many Ilur builders have different ways to secure the mast. Some have a belaypin on each side, some have forged there own metal mast gates. I am using a wood mast gate that pivots open on one side and has an easily removed pin on the other side. I have no belaypins.

[Toxophilite]

Hi Toxophilite, The original plans for the Ilur have an eyebolt on the port and a belay pin on the starboard side of the mast partner. Many Ilur builders have different ways to secure the mast. Some have a belaypin on each side, some have forged there own metal mast gates. I am using a wood mast gate that pivots open on one side and has an easily removed pin on the other side. I have no belaypins.

Ah, the eyebolt would be for the downhaul and the belaying pin would be for the main halyard.
Where are you belaying your main halyard? (just curious not at all judging)

Your mast partner arrangement looks stout and handy!

[Steve TN 15]

In my experience the bunks are only there to keep the boat upright until tied down. They shouldn't be hard against the hull once it is tied down.

If you watch the CLC Pocketship launch video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4qXQ4HJihr4
you'll see the boat rocking side to side because the bunks are well clear of the hull and I'd imagine that man knows what he's doing wouldn't you.

My Tammie Norrie has 3 rollers under the keel with more than 1 foot overhang aft. It does just fine on the trailer.

[Dinghy Pipedreams]

Thank you David, et. al...
Very helpful feedback, appreciated. Cheers, DP

[Toxophilite]

My shellback is also on a trailer with 3 rollers and 2 side bunks amidships. the rollers take the weight and the bunks just keep the boat from rocking a round on the trailer. I will be using the same trailer for my Gartside #130 which is a traditional clinker cedar on oak. Not as durable or as stiff as a glued lapstrake boat like the Illur or the shellback. A bit of overhang off the back is no big deal.

[davidladd]

Hi Toxophilite, I’m still working out the rigging and hadn’t gotten the main halyard cleat on the mast yet. My next question is where to attach the downhaul to the boom. I’ve put up the sail rig several times trying to work out where to attach stuff. I’m getting practice for when I’m in the water. I may look at working out a lazy zack system because of how the yard flops around when I lower the sail.

[neil.henderson]

Hi David,
You are certainly getting closer to launch :-)

You might want to have a glance at the following - I came across it whilst wandering around the splinternet on a rainy day. I've never raised a lug sail yet myself though I will do when my CY is finished. So I don't know if the hints are good are not.....................
https://www.storerboatplans.com/tuni..._PdKOo5hF80soo

Regards Neil

[gray duck]

You already have your cleat in place and it looks very nice so disregard this thought if you have already considered using a pin instead. On my shellback (and many other lug sailboats) I have the main halyard going to a belay pin in the thwart that the mast goes through. IMO This is a nice way to do it because it is quick easy and does not hinder forward view AND it "ties" the mast into the boat. And unlike a cleat when the pin is not in use, it can be removed.

[Toxophilite]

As above, or just use the cleat you already have there. My understanding was the downhaul should be attached near the tack of the sail. (hope I used the right corner) basically you're pulling the luff of the sail tight. I have a shellback too (standing lug) and have messed around with teh rigging options alot. personally I would avoid things like lazyjacks which make the situation more complicated and messy. the standing lug is a nice simple rig as is, better that way in my opinion

[Stora Le]

Hi Toxophilite, I’m still working out the rigging and hadn’t gotten the main halyard cleat on the mast yet. My next question is where to attach the downhaul to the boom. I’ve put up the sail rig several times trying to work out where to attach stuff. I’m getting practice for when I’m in the water. I may look at working out a lazy zack system because of how the yard flops around when I lower the sail.

Hello,
Concerning the flopping lug yard, have a look at this thread. Grabbing and pulling down the luff of the sail with one hand and letting the halyard slide through the other hand worked very well for me, even with a relatively large sail of a caledonia yawl.

Very nice boat by the way, I have very much liked your building thread. Good luck with the sailing.

best,
Viktor

[stromborg]

I alternated between a standing and balanced lug on my KDI using the same downhaul. With a boom you just want the attachment point in line with the mast. I anchored a multi-part tackle to the mast step with the "hauling" end at the bottom.

[davidladd]

I’m getting closer to sea trials. I’ve raised the rig many times now getting the sequence down. Thanks to all for your input. As with all boat builds there are options that are suited to all boats and then there are options that are best suited to the design of the boat. The design of the Ilur has the downhaul line coming up through the foredeck which puts it’s downhaul attached point at the boom close the the end of the boom. This pulls the boom forward so I have a “bleater” line which holds the boom back at the right boom to mast point. I have the outhaul line attached and the reefing system worked out with a reef hook at the tack and a line attached at each clew reef hole which slips on to a the outhaul clip. I know lazy jacks are controversial, but I believe they will greatly benefit the raising and lowering of the yard, and in keeping the whole sail rig in one place instead of all over the place when lowered. The lazy jacks helped a lot when testing the reefing system. I could lower the sail just enough to connect the reef points and keep the sail from falling into the boat. The system I’m using comes from a YouTuber and is very simple. The benefits greatly outweigh any problems. If you look very closely at the picture you can see the Dyneema lines. The last thing I need to do before sea trials is to figure out the simple way to hold the mast down when transporting. Sorry the picture is sideways.

[dbp1]

Looks ready to launch! Only thing -- the downhaul looks like it might be too loose? My understanding (from Michael Storer) is that when on shore / without wind, any crease should be vertical, from near the downhaul to the top of the sail.

[davidladd]

You’re right Daniel, I’ve been working that since the first time I raised the sail. I’ve read all about lug rigs from Michael Storer and others. I know where the crease should be, but I just can’t seem to get that. I have the yard Pick up point per plan, the sail was made per plan from Michael Storer, and I’ve tried different downhaul points on the boom, I’m using halyard no stretch line, but it just doesn’t look like the crease is enough. I’m wondering if the Ilur sail is cut with a bigger pocket and it just isn’t going to pull flat. When I get it in the water and with some wind to fill the sail I’ll see what it looks like. I’m open to any other suggestions.

[NeilMB]

I can’t tell from your picture but how many parts are in you down haul purchase? Storer’s Oz Goose lug tuning page discusses using a slippery rope wrapped up to five turns over the yard for a 5:1 purchase (minus friction of course).

Can you rig more mechanical advantage somewhere in your down haul system?

(I’ve just read the same pages you have, I haven’t tried this first hand.)

[dbp1]

I set up a pretty simple 6:1 system by putting together two triple blocks, terminated with a cam cleat on the mast partner (line starts on the boom, down and up through the blocks and then down the final time to the cleat). Not sure what you have, or if something similar is possible, but it seems to work pretty well in the (at this point, relatively limited) trials I've done with it.

This shows the bottom half, from before the boat was finished (sorry, only photo I see on hand!)

[pvg]

You probably can't do your final rigging till you've seen how it looks underway; there are lots of modifications and adjustments you may want to make along the way...

[neil.henderson]

With my lack patience I'd jump in and sail her :-)

She looks ready to go. You can lots of tuning on the water if you have light winds.

Regards Neil

[WI-Tom]

I agree with observations about the sail--my first guess would be that the downhaul isn't tight enough.

I find with my sail (an 85 sq ft standing lugsail, no boom, so not a perfect comparison) that a 3:1 downhaul system works well. I rig it this way:

Downhaul rig.jpg

The dead-end line (with a loop spliced in) dead-ends at a becket block (not shown) at the bottom, tied to the mast partner on port side. The fiddle block/cam cleat combo (really nice in use!) attaches to the tack of the sail with a snap shackle (easy to change to different reef points that way).

When I tested it with a simple luggage scale, I found that for deep-reefing conditions (3 reefs), I need to pull about 200 lbs of force on the downhaul line to get the downhaul tight enough. Normal sailing conditions, maybe half that or less? (200 lbs is the end force after the mechanical advantage is applied, after it's amplified through the 3:1 system with some loss to friction. I think maybe 60 lbs actual force that I pull on the end of the line?)

You say the yard hoist point is according to plan, but don't be afraid to play around with that if you haven't already. The plans will get you close, but real life trumps what is shown in the plan.

You'll figure it out! If not, it would be worth contacting Michael Storer directly--I am quite sure he would have ideas, and be willing to share them.

Tom

[davidladd]

The Ilur design has a 3 to 1 system for the downhaul. If I really reef on it I think I’ll be able to get enough downhaul, but I’ll know more after a few sails. I finally did a day long sea trials. It was a hot day and I got sun burn. There was 8-9 knot winds with gusts to 15. At first I forgot to lower the rudder. With the wind steady and heading about 50 degrees off the wind it was a good sail. With the gusts I had to be very responsive in letting the sail out to keep from leaning too much. The boat was way more tender than I thought it would be. I almost capsized, but recovered. When I tried to gybe around to turn back I must have gotten the main sheet stuck or stepped on it because as I came around the sail filled fast and I got stuck on the lee side of the boom. Before I knew what happened the boat leaned over so much I just fell out and the boat capsized. Good thing there is so much floatation built into the design. It righted ok and I finally managed to get back aboard, but it was a bit tricky though. I had a kayak pull pump to get the water out, but it wasn’t much help. A good thing there were other boaters around. Another boater gave me a large soda cut to bail with. The Ilur can sure hold a lot of water and it took quite awhile to get most of the water out. I’ll have to get a bigger bailer for next time. I’ve looked into a mounted manual hand pump, but haven’t found one that I liked so far. I finally made it back to the boat ramp and hauled out, but I forgot to raise the centerboard. The bungee cord that holds the CB down over stretched and actually broke, but no damage other than to replace the bungee. Lots of lessened learned.

[Steve TN 15]

I've had similar function issues with my Tammie Norrie. There's so much to think about that you can forget something pretty easily and a raised rudder has happened once or twice. You wonder why it doesn't respond to the helm for a minute then slap your forehead and fix it, I find sitting for a few minutes, looking at everything one part at a time tends to prompt your memory.

[WI-Tom]

The Ilur design has a 3 to 1 system for the downhaul. If I really reef on it I think I’ll be able to get enough downhaul, but I’ll know more after a few sails. I finally did a day long sea trials. It was a hot day and I got sun burn. There was 8-9 knot winds with gusts to 15. At first I forgot to lower the rudder. With the wind steady and heading about 50 degrees off the wind it was a good sail. With the gusts I had to be very responsive in letting the sail out to keep from leaning too much. The boat was way more tender than I thought it would be. I almost capsized, but recovered. When I tried to gybe around to turn back I must have gotten the main sheet stuck or stepped on it because as I came around the sail filled fast and I got stuck on the lee side of the boom. Before I knew what happened the boat leaned over so much I just fell out and the boat capsized. Good thing there is so much floatation built into the design. It righted ok and I finally managed to get back aboard, but it was a bit tricky though. I had a kayak pull pump to get the water out, but it wasn’t much help. A good thing there were other boaters around. Another boater gave me a large soda cut to bail with. The Ilur can sure hold a lot of water and it took quite awhile to get most of the water out. I’ll have to get a bigger bailer for next time. I’ve looked into a mounted manual hand pump, but haven’t found one that I liked so far. I finally made it back to the boat ramp and hauled out, but I forgot to raise the centerboard. The bungee cord that holds the CB down over stretched and actually broke, but no damage other than to replace the bungee. Lots of lessened learned.

Ouch! Sorry you had such a rough introduction for your sea trials, but I'm glad it turned out well.

I find that dialing in the movements and coordination in a new boat takes time--it all feels awkward to me, and incredibly busy, at first. Then with more tiller time, things become more and more natural, and finally I find myself wondering how it ever could have felt overwhelming at all!

The lesson that I learned my early capsizes in my first boat was, always have a bailer. I'll leave anything else ashore before I leave the bailer. And I use a long leash with 2 clip-in points to keep it tied in--one clip-in point at the end of the leash to keep to tied in while using it, and one clip-in short enough to keep the bailer under the gunwale out of the way when not in use. It's not the most traditional, or elegant, but I use a detergent bottle with the bottom cut out for a bailer. I also carry a 3-gallon bucket for when lots of water gets aboard.

Gusty winds make for a steep learning curve in a new boat! Been there...

Tom

[DoctorB]

It's not the most traditional, or elegant, but I use a detergent bottle with the bottom cut out for a bailer.

It's pretty darn traditional in New England waters!

[dbp1]

It's pretty darn traditional in New England waters!

Also, you have a funnel if you need it!

[jpatrick]

David... Sorry to hear that you had a poor first day on the water with the new boat. But happy that you did have a first day. Next time go out on a rather calm day with winds in the 5kt range. You will find yourself much more relaxed and capable. It always takes several outings to figure things out on a new boat. I've been using Emily Ruth for seven years and still the first day of the season is nerve wracking for me. I always forget something! And I still forget to either raise or lower the CB at times.

Jeff

[DoctorB]

Don't feel bad about that first day out. We've all had those days. It took me three to four seasons to finally get comfortable with one of mine, and then, *BAM!*, I get schooled about one thing or another. Your Ilur looks great - congratulations.

[neil.henderson]

Hi David,
Sorry to hear your first day out was a bit tricky - I know this sounds a bit overly clever clogs but you really will have learnt a lot - and next time will be much easier as a result..................
do you have lead ballast in the centreboard? A decent lump of lead in the board way below your waterline can make a big difference and reduce the boats ability to take control over the helmsman.

Good Luck with the next sail - perhaps a crew next time? Regards Neil

[Dinghy Pipedreams]

Hi David,
Sorry to hear your first day out was a bit tricky - I know this sounds a bit overly clever clogs but you really will have learnt a lot - and next time will be much easier as a result..................
do you have lead ballast in the centreboard? A decent lump of lead in the board way below your waterline can make a big difference and reduce the boats ability to take control over the helmsman.

Good Luck with the next sail - perhaps a crew next time? Regards Neil

Yes David, this is pretty normal/regular for lst sails in small open boats. Even a year off from using it brings rusty/can't believe I did that behaviors.

I rehearsed every move and checked every run of the running rigging, etc. before my lst sail this year in a new to me dinghy (10/5 ft) and the sheet stop knot goat caught in the floorboard's open slatted end. Will need to close that off...

It's interesting to hear that the Illur is as tender as it is because Roger Barnes and other's videos don't seem to indicate that much but good to know.

I use my old diver's weight bag with about 30lbs. of moveable ballast near the daggerboard. I plan to replace it with something neutrally buoyant (water) later but it sure helped when solo.

It'll take a bit to shake off this experience but getting back on the (sea)horse a.s.a.p. in gentler conditions will be reassuring. Sailing my sprit rigged tender-ish boat sometimes feels like I'm trying to play a drum kit with all my hands n' feet at once until I get a routine down.


It's great that you're willing to reveal your learning process so others can learn from it too.

After all of your hard and wonderful work it's great that you're able to get her out now. Looking forward to sail report #2.
Cheers, DP

[dalekidd]

My first trip out is hopefully not too far away. A poster on this forum with whom I'm casually acquainted, who built the same boat that I am, capsized his first outing. I know I'll be very nervous on my maiden voyage. I'm planning on a light air day when the time comes. I did capsize once in my 11' dinghy. I did not have a bailer! Oops! Never forgot one after that though I've never needed. Wouldn't you know. I'm sure you'll get the hang of it! Good luck. BTW: love your boat - great job!!