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Thread: puller part 2

  1. #1
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    Default puller part 2

    Having scored a great success with using that old flywheel puller to remove our shaft coupling, I though it might work on the prop as well. First, I welded some short lengths of 7/16" key stock onto 3/8" coupling nuts, as you see here.



    Next, I fitted those to the puller with 3/8" bolts, 6 inches long. Then the whole arrangement was put on the prop, with the tabbed nuts strapped onto the hub with a couple of linked hose clamps.



    We gave the center nut a few turns with a big crescent wrench, and soon we got that satisfying "bang" when it let go.



    That old puller is a handy thing to have -- and it shows once again how there are always more ways to skin a cat.

    Tom

  2. #2
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    Default Re: puller part 2

    Well done! That's become a versatile tool.
    Money may not buy happiness, but it can buy a boat that will pull right up next to it!

  3. #3
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    Default Re: puller part 2

    Happiness is when things go right!
    I was born on a wooden boat that I built myself.

  4. #4
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    Default

    I posted on your other thread about the struggle we had with the prop on my boat, but when it "pops" it all becomes worthwhile!
    Denise, Bristol PA, Oday30, Anchor Yacht Club, On tidal Delaware River. my current project; http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...0-Ducker-Resto

  5. #5
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    Default Re: puller part 2

    And now -- the disaster....

    I had removed the propeller so that I could use the threads on the end of the shaft to pull the shaft back a little farther. I needed the shaft back another 4 inches or so in order to be able to slide on the mid-shaft bearing I'm adding onto the drive. I'm sure that corrosion and scale have built up inside the stern tube, and I had been unable to slide it back any more by just turning and pulling on it.

    I fitted some 2" PVC pipe over the shaft, with the forward end against the stern bearing. I had to make it in two pieces to get it past the rudder, but I thought it would still work fine with the ends butted together.



    Some big washers on the end, and start turning the nut -- sure enough, it was coming out as planned. Reaching the end of the thread, I intended to take the nut off and fit another pipe on, this one about 1-1/2" longer than the last, thereby working it slowly back where I needed it. But when I looked at the cutless bearing -- crap! The shaft was pulling it's rubber sleeve right out of the brass shell!



    That bearing (which looked fine) is ruined now, and I can't see any way of pulling it out without removing the shaft all the way. Removing the shaft means unhooking the steering gear and dropping the rudder. Oh, and the rudder can't be dropped without removing the oak strut between the bottom rudder bearing and the keel. This job has taken an ugly turn.



    And so goes the onion peeling --- there's no stopping now. Anyway, now I can put the shaft on a couple of V-blocks and check it for true, so I've got THAT going for me.

    Tom

  6. #6
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    Default

    Not a disaster just stuff that needs to be done, I'd never really think or plan to just get by on something like this,. plan on A to Z and you won't be disappointed just like driveline work on a car " I woulda, coulda, in the end you shoulda because you hada!
    Denise, Bristol PA, Oday30, Anchor Yacht Club, On tidal Delaware River. my current project; http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...0-Ducker-Resto

  7. #7
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    Default Re: puller part 2

    Bummer!

    Maybe it'll turn out (so to speak) that the shaft actually did have a bow & you'll be really glad this all happened?

    Just trying to make an omelette...
    "If it ain't broke, you're not trying." - Red Green

  8. #8
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    Default Re: puller part 2

    Just keep doing what yer doing. You'll probably get the bearing to come out most if not all of the way and if you run into the rudder you should be able to work the little bit of whatever is left of it out with vice grips dremel etc. Then you can polish the exposed portion of the shaft and install the new cutlass bearing over it. Remove the set screws first though so the shell comes out as well. You're fighting against at least one I see. May be one on the opposite side of the housing too

  9. #9
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    Default Re: puller part 2

    Just keep doing what yer doing. You'll probably get the bearing to come out most if not all of the way and if you run into the rudder you should be able to work the little bit of whatever is left of it out with vice grips dremel etc. Then you can polish the exposed portion of the shaft and install the new cutlass bearing over it. Remove the set screws first though so the shell comes out as well. You're fighting against at least one I see. May be one on the opposite side of the housing too

    The shell of the bearing is the problem. You may not be able to tell from the picture I posted, but those allen set screws are already backed way off, and the shell will not move. If I keep on jacking the shaft out, that will no doubt pull the rubber insert all the way out, but then what? With the shaft still inside it I see no good way to pull that shell out. I tried turning it with a small pipe wrench, but to no avail. And I'm afraid that might just distort it and make it even harder to get out.

    With the shaft out, I could turn a plug with a 1/2" internal thread, then pull the shell out from outside with a length of all-thread rod. I have no idea how to shift it with the shaft in place though -- if anybody has a brainstorm I'd love to hear it.

  10. #10
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    It should just be thin brass or bronze, it's just longer than what you would encounter on a Cutlass bearing. We used a tapered round awl or drift driven along side to collapse it inward, .on another we used a hacksaw blade to nick it and make it easier to collapse. Plumbers do this with iron pipe of course it's much harder work I remember seeing my dad doing it,

    But I agree with mnd and Garrett remove the whole thing.

    I actually found a video of a plumber cutting the threads out of a fitting, lol
    https://youtu.be/y7GKaQZh33s
    Last edited by DeniseO30; 02-21-2020 at 08:50 AM.
    Denise, Bristol PA, Oday30, Anchor Yacht Club, On tidal Delaware River. my current project; http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...0-Ducker-Resto

  11. #11
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    Default Re: puller part 2

    Pull the shaft, then remove the bearing housing from the sternpost. Then you can work on removing the bearing shell from the comfort of your workbench.
    Hope for the best, but plan for the worst.

  12. #12
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    Default Re: puller part 2

    Quote Originally Posted by mmd View Post
    Pull the shaft, then remove the bearing housing from the sternpost. Then you can work on removing the bearing shell from the comfort of your workbench.
    I bet the nuts on the inside of the boat for the housing bearing are really fun to get to.
    "If it ain't broke, you're not trying." - Red Green

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    Default Re: puller part 2

    Quote Originally Posted by mmd View Post
    Pull the shaft, then remove the bearing housing from the sternpost. Then you can work on removing the bearing shell from the comfort of your workbench.
    Jesuzs -- you're killing me! There is no way in hell I want to kick over that hornets nest.

    No, I know I can pull that shell in-situ, but I guess I have to resign myself to pulling the shaft first. Once the shaft is out of the way I can turn a steel plug that is slightly less than the OD (1-1/2") of the bearing shell. Then I'll slide a length of 1/2' all-thread in from outside, screw the plug on at the forward end of the stern tube (packing gland removed, of course). Then, slide the plug back against the shell -- now it's just a matter of a short length of pipe on the flange of the stern bearing, some washers, a nut, and a wrench, and it will pull right out.

    OK, so the shaft has to come out, and to do so the rudder needs to be removed, great. Now my next hurdle is a classic -- is there enough vertical space to pull the rudder stock down out of the bearing. I hope so, because the boat is on stands on a concrete slab, I will not be digging any clearance holes there...

  14. #14
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    Default Re: puller part 2

    Quote Originally Posted by moTthediesel View Post
    Jesuzs -- you're killing me! There is no way in hell I want to kick over that hornets nest.

    No, I know I can pull that shell in-situ, but I guess I have to resign myself to pulling the shaft first. Once the shaft is out of the way I can turn a steel plug that is slightly less than the OD (1-1/2") of the bearing shell. Then I'll slide a length of 1/2' all-thread in from outside, screw the plug on at the forward end of the stern tube (packing gland removed, of course). Then, slide the plug back against the shell -- now it's just a matter of a short length of pipe on the flange of the stern bearing, some washers, a nut, and a wrench, and it will pull right out.



    OK, so the shaft has to come out, and to do so the rudder needs to be removed, great. Now my next hurdle is a classic -- is there enough vertical space to pull the rudder stock down out of the bearing. I hope so, because the boat is on stands on a concrete slab, I will not be digging any clearance holes there...
    The shell is the same length as the core bearing material. What do you have to lose by pulling the rest of the bearing material out with the shaft as you only have another couple inches to go it looks like? Then you will have space to collapse the shell down around the shaft in situ. If that doesn't work then you pull the shaft. It won't matter if you bugger up the shell a little bit and can't get it out as then you will just have to pull the shaft and you can still easily get a sawzall in there to cut the shell along its length and it will fall right out. I have done this job a few times.

    Once the bearing material gets pulled out the rest of the way you just might have enough slop at that point that you can angle the shaft to just clear the rudder?.. and you can drag it past without having to pull the rudder.

    I still think you should just keep at it and see how much of the cutlass bearing pulls out before you run out of room against the rudder. You will probably get all the core material and most of the shell. with an inch or so of the shell left in there even with the prop shaft in place you will be able to collapse the shell and work it out.
    Last edited by MalabarJr; 02-21-2020 at 10:01 AM.

  15. #15
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    Default Re: puller part 2

    Quote Originally Posted by MalabarJr View Post
    The shell is the same length as the core bearing material. What do you have to lose by pulling the rest of the bearing material out with the shaft as you only have another couple inches to go it looks like? Then you will have space to collapse the shell down around the shaft in situ. If that doesn't work then you pull the shaft. It won't matter if you bugger up the shell a little bit and can't get it out as then you will just have to pull the shaft and you can still easily get a sawzall in there to cut the shell along its length and it will fall right out. I have done this job a few times.

    Once the bearing material gets pulled out the rest of the way you just might have enough slop at that point that you can angle the shaft to just clear the rudder?.. and you can drag it past without having to pull the rudder.
    Maybe -- it's worth a try anyway.

    It would be great if there was a perfect size sleeve I could slide over the shaft from the inside to push the shell out. I checked, and 1-1/4" EMT has an OD of 1.510" -- just a smidgen too big dammit!

  16. #16
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    Default Re: puller part 2

    Quote Originally Posted by moTthediesel View Post
    Maybe -- it's worth a try anyway.

    It would be great if there was a perfect size sleeve I could slide over the shaft from the inside to push the shell out. I checked, and 1-1/4" EMT has an OD of 1.510" -- just a smidgen too big dammit!
    Yeah it would be tough to get something in the housing that is small enough diameter to fit and fit over the prop shaft and still grab enough meat of the soft bronze shell to drive it out. I think you just need to keep at it and you just might be surprised. I know you demo'd a perfectly good cutlass bearing but I don't think it has to get much worse than that.

  17. #17
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    Default Re: puller part 2

    Quote Originally Posted by Garret View Post
    I bet the nuts on the inside of the boat for the housing bearing are really fun to get to.
    I guess that would depend on whether the bearing housing was thru-bolted or merely lag-bolted into the sternpost.
    Hope for the best, but plan for the worst.

  18. #18
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    Default Re: puller part 2

    There is a problem here...
    Pull the whole thing and fix it right.
    You may have to raise the boat.

  19. #19
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    Default Re: puller part 2

    Well, having whined so much about having to drop the rudder to remove the shaft, I feel like a right putz now that I see how easy it was to do. The pitman arm gave up without a fight, and the oak (WoodenBoat content!) strut unbolted from the keel without issue -- other then the 30" of socket extensions down into the abyss. The rudder stock was short, so ground clearance was not an issue at all.

    I used the same setup again to pull on the shaft, and sure enough, it pulled the rubber bearing insert all the way out -- lots of schmutz on the shaft as expected. Turns out the bearing was badly worn, with one end of the liner gone completely, hmm.



    So then, out came the stick.



    Into the shop with it, and onto a pair of greased V-blocks for a quick examination -- time for a little barnyard marine engineering.



    Some of you may take issue with my testing table and correctly note that it is not ground granite -- but for this application, it will serve. As long as the two support points are secure, and the measurement point is stable, even a scabby setup like this will tell you what you need to know. Note that the dial indicator is set on a large and heavy chunk of 1/2" steel plate, stability there is key.

    The shaft is tested at three points -- the center, then the two ends. The center proofed-out very well, with a little under .002" deflection. The gearbox coupling end was perfect, but there was almost .01" runout on the minor end of the prop taper -- not so good. The prop is pretty well protected on this boat, and I see no signs of grounding anywhere, so I suspect that at some point, a line was wound up on it.

    I've never tried torch shaft straightening before, but this might be my chance -- how hard can it be?

    Tom

  20. #20
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    Default Re: puller part 2

    How hard can it be? Why on earth would you ever ask such a question?

    Tossing out another thought: There are inserts for props to fit (for example) a 1.5" prop onto a 1.25" shaft. I had one on the prop that came with my boat & never had an issue with it. Anyway - the idea would be to turn the shaft down at the end & use a spacer.

    Or - on a bronze shaft, could you add metal (TIG?) & turn it back down?

    Of course both of these would mean broaching a new keyway.
    "If it ain't broke, you're not trying." - Red Green

  21. #21
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    bent taper bad Cutlass bearing probably the source of most of your vibration.

    I'm familiar with the "feeling" but usually, it is more discussion than it is actual work!

    I found hours of discussion more tedious then the removal of the fuel tank and the rudder on my boat!
    We did have to dig a hole in the dirt because a sailboat rudder this almost 8 ft long with the stock!
    Denise, Bristol PA, Oday30, Anchor Yacht Club, On tidal Delaware River. my current project; http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...0-Ducker-Resto

  22. #22
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    Default Re: puller part 2

    I have straightened quite a few shafts, spindles and crankshafts even which have to be within .001"

    Just set up an indicator in your press you you can sneak up on it. Rotate it to find the bend then bend it back .005" and check it. If it sprung back, bend it 010" and etc until it stays moved. A little time consuming, but easy. Just mark your high places and locate the vee blocks and indicator the same way each time. (It would be slick if you could put a hub on the shaft that mimicked the propellor because the bend is likely between the propeller and the bearing and you don't want to bend the taper.)

  23. #23
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    Default Re: puller part 2

    Well, after doing some research and watching some videos, I decided my best bet for straightening the end of my shaft was to try "peen straitening" rather than the torch method. This involves determining the high point of the runout, marking the area of the bend, and then striking it there with a hammer. The idea, as I understand it, is to release the compression stress in the area of the shaft that was introduced by the bending incident, whatever it was.

    The shaft is supported at the bend area by a wood block, and then struck with a series of blows moving all around the compressed area. I would certainly not consider myself any expert on this, but I can say that at least in this case, I was successful. Here's a little video I did of my last test for result. With a little under .002" runout left, that's a great improvement from the nearly .01 we started with.


  24. #24
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    Default Re: puller part 2

    Great! 0.002 should certainly be about as good as when new.
    "If it ain't broke, you're not trying." - Red Green

  25. #25
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    The bronze isn't Pink by any chance is it?

    On your flange carrier bearing, could it possibly be better to have one that's rubber ie vibration isolated also?
    Denise, Bristol PA, Oday30, Anchor Yacht Club, On tidal Delaware River. my current project; http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...0-Ducker-Resto

  26. #26
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    Default Re: puller part 2

    I was talking to someone a while ago who used to straighten a fair number of prop shafts, his trick was a 10lb lead sledge hammer and v blocks.

  27. #27
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    Default Re: puller part 2

    I had a prop shaft satisfactorily straightened using a hydraulic press. Found the high spot by rolling around on a flat surface. Press, then repeat until the shaft rolls true.
    Quote Originally Posted by oznabrag View Post
    Just ask Thom.

    He knows.


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