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Thread: Do you think Trumps Mideast peace plan will go anywhere?

  1. #36
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    Default Re: Do you think Trumps Mideast peace plan will go anywhere?

    It's a three-way dictator circle jerk and Blooie is right there for the money shot.

  2. #37
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    Default Re: Do you think Trumps Mideast peace plan will go anywhere?

    The Middle East is f'd up because of the residents of the Middle East. The West has nothing to do with it.
    “Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome, charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the earth all one's lifetime.”― Mark Twain,


  3. #38
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    Default Re: Do you think Trumps Mideast peace plan will go anywhere?

    Quote Originally Posted by BrianW View Post
    The West has nothing to do with it.
    Why don't you get the f out then?

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    Default Re: Do you think Trumps Mideast peace plan will go anywhere?

    Quote Originally Posted by BrianW View Post
    The Middle East is f'd up because of the residents of the Middle East. The West has nothing to do with it.
    This is so far from the truth as to be almost laughable.
    I'd much rather lay in my bunk all freakin day lookin at Youtube videos .

  5. #40
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    Default Re: Do you think Trumps Mideast peace plan will go anywhere?

    The UAE have been wanting to make money with Israel for quite a while. Bibi agreed to not do something he probably couldn't get away with, and the UAE did something they were going to do anyway while saving face. Trump takes the "credit", the subject is briefly changed from his covid response shambles, and nothing else changes.

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    Default Re: Do you think Trumps Mideast peace plan will go anywhere?

    Quote Originally Posted by BrianW View Post
    The Middle East is f'd up because of the residents of the Middle East. The West has nothing to do with it.
    You might read some ME history Brian. Long story short, the Arabs were stitched up by Britain, France and America -

    1) Britain offered the Arabs their independence in exchange for their assistance in defeating the ruling Ottoman Empire. (McMahon–Hussein Correspondence 1915)
    2) The Sykes - Picot agreement (1916) between Britain, France and Russia effectively contradicted the McMahon promise
    3) The Balfour Declaration (1917) further contradicted the McMahon promise.
    4) When Israel jumped the gun by declaring independence (1947) before the UN partition plan was completed, the USA was the first country to recognise the new state, just eleven minutes after the declaration.
    https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org...tion-of-israel

    The McMahon–Hussein Correspondence is a series of letters that were exchanged during World War I (1915) in which the United Kingdom government agreed to recognize Arab independence (in an area which included Palestine) after the war in exchange for the Sharif of Mecca launching the Arab Revolt against the Ottoman Empire. The correspondence had a significant impact on Middle Eastern history during and after the war, and a dispute over Palestine continued thereafter..

    The Sykes–Picot Agreement was a 1916 secret treaty between the United Kingdom and France, with assent from the Russian Empire and Italy, to define their mutually agreed spheres of influence and control in an eventual partition of the Ottoman Empire.
    The agreement allocated to Britain control of what is today southern Israel and Palestine, Jordan and southern Iraq, and an additional small area that included the ports of Haifa and Acre to allow access to the Mediterranean. France was to control of southeastern Turkey, northern Iraq, Syria and Lebanon.

    Following the publication of the November 1917 Balfour Declaration, which was a letter written by British Foreign Secretary Arthur James Balfour to Baron Rothschild, a wealthy and prominent leader in the British Jewish community, which promised a national home for the Jews in Palestine, and the subsequent leaking of the secret 1916 Sykes–Picot Agreement in which Britain and France proposed to split and occupy parts of the territory, the Sharif and other Arab leaders considered the agreements made in the McMahon–Hussein Correspondence had been violated.
    Structures uninformed by geometry tend towards the ramshackle.

  7. #42
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    Default Re: Do you think Trumps Mideast peace plan will go anywhere?

    The west and middle Eastern interference...



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    Last edited by P.I. Stazzer-Newt; 08-15-2020 at 02:17 PM.
    I'd much rather lay in my bunk all freakin day lookin at Youtube videos .

  8. #43
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    Default Re: Do you think Trumps Mideast peace plan will go anywhere?

    Israel-UAE normalization is certainly not a peace agreement, and is essentially unrelated to what most of us understand to be THE Middle East peace agreement, which would, ideally, be the creation of a Palestinian state, and a peaceful relationship between it and Israel.

    Israel and the UAE have never even come close to being at war. The UAE didn't even exist in 1967, which is the last time Arab nations attacked Israel. The Trucial States, as they were previously known, were essentially a British protectorate until 1971 so were not involved in either the 1947 or 1967 Arab/Israeli conflicts. I see this agreement as a convenient arrangement between two pro-Trump nations to provide a united front against their common enemy Iran.
    Structures uninformed by geometry tend towards the ramshackle.

  9. #44
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    Default Re: Do you think Trumps Mideast peace plan will go anywhere?

    Quote Originally Posted by BrianW View Post
    The Middle East is f'd up because of the residents of the Middle East. The West has nothing to do with it.
    Come on Brian you're smarter than that. Who occupied most of the Middle Eastern countries from the 19th century till well into the 20th century? Who controlled the oil? Who decided the boundaries of Israel to start with? Who drew up most of the national borders?
    ​"Life is under no obligation to give us what we expect." Irrfan Khan. RIP

  10. #45
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    Default Re: Do you think Trumps Mideast peace plan will go anywhere?

    So - Israel & the UAE, both in need of cash, agree to trade & Trump wants to take credit?

    If I sign a contract with a new client, does he get to take credit for that as well?

    Only a true trumpist could believe he deserves an ounce of credit - especially when it's even more likely that his fellow criminal in Israel put his name on it for some future promise.
    "If it ain't broke, you're not trying." - Red Green

  11. #46
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    Default Re: Do you think Trumps Mideast peace plan will go anywhere?

    What you need to understand is that peace in the Middle East follows a Bell Curve...
    \"A little too tall, coulda used a few pounds...\"

  12. #47
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    Default Re: Do you think Trumps Mideast peace plan will go anywhere?

    Quote Originally Posted by Beowolf View Post
    What you need to understand is that peace in the Middle East follows a Bell Curve...
    Well played sir.
    "If it ain't broke, you're not trying." - Red Green

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    Default Re: Do you think Trumps Mideast peace plan will go anywhere?

    That area is a cross roads, out of and into Africa and europe and seaways to India, SE Asia, China, the Atlantic…..
    I don't imagine it has ever been particularly peaceful. And I doubt if the present power balances and national arrangements are particularly permanent.

  14. #49
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    Default Re: Do you think Trumps Mideast peace plan will go anywhere?

    Quote Originally Posted by WX View Post
    Come on Brian you're smarter than that. Who occupied most of the Middle Eastern countries from the 19th century till well into the 20th century? Who controlled the oil? Who decided the boundaries of Israel to start with? Who drew up most of the national borders?
    All of the way back to 1820
    The Trucial States (Arabic: الساحل المهادن‎ As-Sāḥil al-Muhādin or المتصالح al-Mutaṣāliḥ; also known as Trucial Coast, Trucial Oman, Trucial States of the Coast of Oman, and Trucial Sheikhdoms) was the name the British government gave to a group of tribal confederations in south-eastern Arabia which had been known as the "Pirate Coast". The name derived from the territories whose principal sheikhs had signed protective treaties (also known as truces, hence 'trucial') with the British government from 1820 until 1892. They remained an informal British protectorate until the treaties were revoked on 1 December 1971. The following day six of the sheikhdoms (Dubai, Abu Dhabi, Sharjah, Ajman, Umm Al Quwain and Fujairah) formed the United Arab Emirates; the seventh – Ras Al Khaimah – joined the Federation on 10 February 1972.
    The British had to step in to stop the murdering thieving barstewards attacking trade from India and the far east.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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    Default Re: Do you think Trumps Mideast peace plan will go anywhere?

    "There is no change in our plan" (Likud)

    https://mondoweiss.net/2020/08/trump...ation-for-now/

    The AlMighty

    in the original version of this old movie ... an Aramaic ruling class (= Jacob) came to the land of Canaan with money, books, bloody pamphlets and Persian power

    the arabhebrew population (the first born = Esau (remember that Moses' father-in-law is an Arab priest)) ... the arabhebrew they had to endure the designs of the almighty in the province of yehud

    This fracture between the so-called "people" and the Arab-Hebrew population lasted until the time of "the Nazarene"


    "The events that occurred between us" were three: (1) the civil war in Syria ("the cities were divided into two sides" writes Flavio Josephus) (2) the civil war between the population and the so-called "people" in the land of Canaan which was a war of the countryside against the city, and (3) the war against the Romans

    Legio V Macedom, Legio X Fretensis and Legio XV Apolinarus

    the legions destroyed the city and the temple, fulfilling the prophecies of some exalted long-haired ones, like Jacob "the son of thunder"

    This apocalyptic sect ... with the passage of time was the distant and remote root of the Church of Rome and Constantinople providing the empire with a new set of fantasies

    And among that set of fantasies there was a very important one: The Legend of the Exile, a Christian legend that was assumed by the rabbis

    The Christian Legend said:

    "those of Jerusalem condemned him" ... and hashem was so angry with them that he destroyed their temple ... and scattered them throughout the empire

    It is a pure fantasy that at best confuses the history of the temple-city with the history of the people of the land of Canaan

    We know that "iudaismus" was at that time a religion that spread among women like fire through gunpowder, all the classical sources, including Flavius ​​Josephus, confirm this fact

    And we come to 1917 when the people of the land of Canaan find out that the almighty (that is: the British Empire) has promised to give that land to some Russians

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ze%27ev_Jabotinsky

    and unleashed biblical terror as ordered by the Great Rag Doll in his bloody Aramaic pamphlets

    and to the great enthusiasm of the almighty (that is: the American empire) that shares the fondness for biblical terror over a local population

  16. #51
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    Default Re: Do you think Trumps Mideast peace plan will go anywhere?

    From what I've heard it looks like Trump might get to actually call this one a win. At least if it turns into something that won't change with the whims of the 3 wanna be dictators. Deals with Trumps name on them tend to be all show, no substance, and absolutely no reliability.

  17. #52
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    Default Re: Do you think Trumps Mideast peace plan will go anywhere?

    This is the 3rd agreement between Israel and an Arab country
    1. 1979 - Egypt
    2. 1994 - Jordan
    3. 2020 - UAE

    The UAE includes opening of embassies.

  18. #53
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    Default Re: Do you think Trumps Mideast peace plan will go anywhere?

    Also, Israel has its eye on a safer, and more local, supply of oil..

    Oil supply for Israel—currently the best local source of oil that Israel can buy in any quantity is Kurdish oil from Iraq, which travels via Turkey. The Turkish leader, President Recep Tayyip Erdogan, is confrontational with Israel, and Iraq is heavily influenced by an Iranian regime that is enemies with Israel. Therefore, Kurdish oil is not necessarily reliable for Israel. Oil from the UAE (the national oil company there is named Adnoc) would be a great economic and strategic opportunity for Israel.

    https://www.forbes.com/sites/ellenrw...business-move/
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  19. #54
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    Default Re: Do you think Trumps Mideast peace plan will go anywhere?

    the Wahabi

    they rule in barbaria Saudi and UAE and they are part of the new (1945-) Empire of the Romans

    seen from outside, for example seen from a remote island in Polynesia or from a refuge in Antarctica or from a Monastery lost in the mountains ... the name of the empire is Anglo-zionist-salafist/wahabi Empire

    in fact a group of Wahabi attacked New York and the empire's surprising response was to unleash chaos and terror in Iraq

    It would be laughable if all this was not monstrously tragic

  20. #55
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    Default Re: Do you think Trumps Mideast peace plan will go anywhere?

    maybe another name would be

    Anglo-SWIFT-dollar Empire

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soci...ecommunication

    or in abbreviated form

    SWIFT-dollar Empire

    maybe this is his proper name

  21. #56
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    Default Re: Do you think Trumps Mideast peace plan will go anywhere?


  22. #57
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    Default Re: Do you think Trumps Mideast peace plan will go anywhere?

    What Mr. Trump is claiming credit for is not a Middle-East peace agreement, but merely codification of a trade pact between two right-wing Middle-Eastern states. All that is missing is for Mr. Trump to stand on the steps of Congress, wave a sheaf of papers in the air, and declare 'peace in our time!", like Mr. Chamberlain did in 1938...
    Hope for the best, but plan for the worst.

  23. #58
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    Default Re: Do you think Trumps Mideast peace plan will go anywhere?

    The NYT article keeps using the word 'peace'.
    “Instead of Israeli annexation for a Palestinian state, they made it Israeli non-annexation in return for peace with the U.A.E.,” said Rabinovich in an interview. Kushner, he added, “basically generated an asset out of nothing, which Israel could then trade for peace with the U.A.E. It was peace for peace, not land for peace.”

    As posted in #44 - The UAE and Israel have never been at war, never a shot fired between them. Indeed, the UAE have always been the least aggressive Arab nation with regard to Israel. In fact this deal has been in the pipeline since last year, along with similar plans for Oman, Bahrain, and Morocco.
    https://jcpa.org/a-non-aggression-ag...rab-countries/

    I sense that Trump supporters want us to believe that this is THE peace agreement, but it's not even close. I hope it moves the real peace agreement forward, but I won't hold my breath.
    Structures uninformed by geometry tend towards the ramshackle.

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    Default Re: Do you think Trumps Mideast peace plan will go anywhere?

    Quote Originally Posted by genglandoh View Post
    This is the 3rd agreement between Israel and an Arab country
    1. 1979 - Egypt
    2. 1994 - Jordan
    3. 2020 - UAE

    The UAE includes opening of embassies.
    Yes that's true. The first two were under the auspices of Democrat presidents Jimmy Carter and Bill Clinton.
    Structures uninformed by geometry tend towards the ramshackle.

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    Default Re: Do you think Trumps Mideast peace plan will go anywhere?

    Quote Originally Posted by P.I. Stazzer-Newt View Post
    This is so far from the truth as to be almost laughable.
    The natives got uppity in Iran when they didn’t go along with the Anglo Iranian oil Company sucking out their oil wealth. CIA and MI6 to the rescue!

    Arms sales were veddy good for a couple decades

    https://www.pri.org/stories/2016-06-...-last-70-years
    Last edited by LeeG; 08-14-2020 at 10:08 AM.

  26. #61
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    Default Re: Do you think Trumps Mideast peace plan will go anywhere?

    "those damn people" (John 7,49)

    "You have been loved by me, says the Lord. But you say:

    -(OMFG) Where was your love for us?
    Was not Esau Jacob's brother?" (Malachi 1,2)

    The bad luck of the first-born, the ArabHebrews, is frightening

  27. #62
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    Default Re: Do you think Trumps Mideast peace plan will go anywhere?

    Quote Originally Posted by Beowolf View Post
    What you need to understand is that peace in the Middle East follows a Bell Curve...
    My thoughts exactly, except that it could follow the curve of a mushroom cloud

  28. #63
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    Default Re: Do you think Trumps Mideast peace plan will go anywhere?

    Quote Originally Posted by George. View Post
    Why don't you get the f out then?
    The one thing I hoped Trump would do, is pull out of there.

    Maybe the next President will?
    “Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome, charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the earth all one's lifetime.”― Mark Twain,


  29. #64
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    Default Re: Do you think Trumps Mideast peace plan will go anywhere?

    Quote Originally Posted by P.I. Stazzer-Newt View Post
    This is so far from the truth as to be almost laughable.
    Quote Originally Posted by isla View Post
    You might read some ME history Brian. Long story short, the Arabs were stitched up by Britain, France and America -

    1) Britain offered the Arabs their independence in exchange for their assistance in defeating the ruling Ottoman Empire. (McMahon–Hussein Correspondence 1915)
    2) The Sykes - Picot agreement (1916) between Britain, France and Russia effectively contradicted the McMahon promise
    3) The Balfour Declaration (1917) further contradicted the McMahon promise.
    4) When Israel jumped the gun by declaring independence (1947) before the UN partition plan was completed, the USA was the first country to recognise the new state, just eleven minutes after the declaration.
    https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org...tion-of-israel

    The McMahon–Hussein Correspondence is a series of letters that were exchanged during World War I (1915) in which the United Kingdom government agreed to recognize Arab independence (in an area which included Palestine) after the war in exchange for the Sharif of Mecca launching the Arab Revolt against the Ottoman Empire. The correspondence had a significant impact on Middle Eastern history during and after the war, and a dispute over Palestine continued thereafter..

    The Sykes–Picot Agreement was a 1916 secret treaty between the United Kingdom and France, with assent from the Russian Empire and Italy, to define their mutually agreed spheres of influence and control in an eventual partition of the Ottoman Empire.
    The agreement allocated to Britain control of what is today southern Israel and Palestine, Jordan and southern Iraq, and an additional small area that included the ports of Haifa and Acre to allow access to the Mediterranean. France was to control of southeastern Turkey, northern Iraq, Syria and Lebanon.

    Following the publication of the November 1917 Balfour Declaration, which was a letter written by British Foreign Secretary Arthur James Balfour to Baron Rothschild, a wealthy and prominent leader in the British Jewish community, which promised a national home for the Jews in Palestine, and the subsequent leaking of the secret 1916 Sykes–Picot Agreement in which Britain and France proposed to split and occupy parts of the territory, the Sharif and other Arab leaders considered the agreements made in the McMahon–Hussein Correspondence had been violated.
    Quote Originally Posted by P.I. Stazzer-Newt View Post
    The west and middle Eastern interference...

    https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped..._Syria_-_3.jpg

    What did the Romans ever do for us?. Copyright M. Python.
    Quote Originally Posted by WX View Post
    Come on Brian you're smarter than that. Who occupied most of the Middle Eastern countries from the 19th century till well into the 20th century? Who controlled the oil? Who decided the boundaries of Israel to start with? Who drew up most of the national borders?
    Having spent a considerable amount of time in the region, I've come to realize it's an internal issue, between religion, Sunni/Sharia, who has oil, who has squat, extreme male ego, Islamic rule, and centuries of history.

    You guys head on over, and prove me wrong. Just remember, years of Western peace treaties resulted in nothing.
    Last edited by BrianW; 08-15-2020 at 01:21 AM.
    “Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome, charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the earth all one's lifetime.”― Mark Twain,


  30. #65
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    Default Re: Do you think Trumps Mideast peace plan will go anywhere?

    One time in Jalalabad, I was driving a Kawasaki Mule (a 4 seater all terrain off road vehicle for those not in the know) around the US/Afghan base there, and saw a local Afghani walking towards the ECP (Entry Control Point, or main gate), it was hot, and he had about a half mile to go, so I stopped and offered him a ride. He graciously accepted, and off we we went. I'm pretty sure he was an Afghan 'Commando' soldier headed off base for some liberty. He was wearing the local garb. Their camp was just across the road from our billeting. I made sure my Glock was accessible, as "blue on green" attacks do happen.

    About 300 yards down the road, I saw another local Afghani walking to the ECP, so I starter to slow down again to offer him a ride. My current passenger looked at me and said "no, no, no" (or something like that) while waving for me to continue on. After we passed the guy, I gave my rider a questioning look, and he pointed to his hat, and said "That guy bad, wrong hat". So to be honest, I'm guessing it was a local tribal thing, or one of the two guys were actually bad guys, and I wasn't sure which one it was.

    Point being, there's more than enough regional strife, without western influence to keep the place f'd up for a long time.
    “Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome, charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the earth all one's lifetime.”― Mark Twain,


  31. #66
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    Default Re: Do you think Trumps Mideast peace plan will go anywhere?

    Quote Originally Posted by genglandoh View Post
    This is the 3rd agreement between Israel and an Arab country
    1. 1979 - Egypt
    2. 1994 - Jordan
    3. 2020 - UAE

    The UAE includes opening of embassies.
    Long time between drinks, innit! UAE is relatively western tolerant - I wouldn't read too much significance into this agreement, it's not like they are heavy hitters in ME politics.
    Nowhere near as edgy as KSA. Four days there was enough, very pleased when the plane went wheels-up on the way back to the normalcy of Dubai.

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    Default Re: Do you think Trumps Mideast peace plan will go anywhere?

    Quote Originally Posted by BrianW View Post

    Point being, there's more than enough regional strife, without western influence to keep the place f'd up for a long time.
    Of course there is. One of the factors that made meddling so attractive. I don’t think the presidency is powerful enough to change the direction of the CMIC main mission. I think it would be like operating on oneself. Basically we’re going to keep prioritizing military programs and a militarized foreign policy until the bank runs dry, the mother/father/home land will decay until it can’t afford it anymore.

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    Default Re: Do you think Trumps Mideast peace plan will go anywhere?

    Quote Originally Posted by isla View Post
    Yes that's true. The first two were under the auspices of Democrat presidents Jimmy Carter and Bill Clinton.
    That's true.
    Those agreements were historic and so is the current one under Trump.

  34. #69
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    Default Re: Do you think Trumps Mideast peace plan will go anywhere?

    Quote Originally Posted by BrianW View Post
    One time in Jalalabad, I was driving a Kawasaki Mule (a 4 seater all terrain off road vehicle for those not in the know) around the US/Afghan base there, and saw a local Afghani walking towards the ECP (Entry Control Point, or main gate), it was hot, and he had about a half mile to go, so I stopped and offered him a ride. He graciously accepted, and off we we went. I'm pretty sure he was an Afghan 'Commando' soldier headed off base for some liberty. He was wearing the local garb. Their camp was just across the road from our billeting. I made sure my Glock was accessible, as "blue on green" attacks do happen.

    About 300 yards down the road, I saw another local Afghani walking to the ECP, so I starter to slow down again to offer him a ride. My current passenger looked at me and said "no, no, no" (or something like that) while waving for me to continue on. After we passed the guy, I gave my rider a questioning look, and he pointed to his hat, and said "That guy bad, wrong hat". So to be honest, I'm guessing it was a local tribal thing, or one of the two guys were actually bad guys, and I wasn't sure which one it was.

    Point being, there's more than enough regional strife, without western influence to keep the place f'd up for a long time.
    Sure, there are tribal "things". No doubt much worse in Afghanistan, the most backwards country in the region. I hear people in the US don't get along so well either. Maybe you can give a ride to someone in a MAGA hat and then try to pick up a BLM protester. Wrong hat, you see.

    Africa has tribal things too. Sometimes lots of people are killed. But mostly they have to do it without modern Western weapons. Imagine your average African civil war fought with the kind of stuff you guys provide to the Saudis et al. Imagine your average African tyrant propped up the way you guys prop up all those sheiks. Could you imagine Trump dancing with Mobuto on a state visit to Zim? I can. It ain't pretty.

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    Default Re: Do you think Trumps Mideast peace plan will go anywhere?

    Quote Originally Posted by genglandoh View Post
    That's true.
    Those agreements were historic and so is the current one under Trump.
    The Israel - UAE deal doesn't have the same weight or significance as the two earlier ones, because Jordan and Egypt had actually been at war with Israel. They had participated in both the 1948 and 1967 attacks on Israel, and there was the capture and loss of territory in both cases. Furthermore, Israel had invaded Egypt in 1956 during the Suez crisis. The UAE on the other hand has never been aggressive to Israel, and is one of several gulf states who see considerable economic and military advantage in becoming more friendly with Israel, so this was a much easier deal to achieve.
    Last edited by isla; 08-15-2020 at 12:29 PM.
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