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Thread: Explain this rig?

  1. #36
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    Default Re: Explain this rig?

    So the gal with the oars has the perspective then.
    I wonder where they stowed the oars?

  2. #37
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    Default Re: Explain this rig?

    Full disclosure: the second painting is 3 years older. But it does look like the girls could be related.

  3. #38
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    Default Re: Explain this rig?

    Quote Originally Posted by Phil Y View Post
    If you think so. I just reckoned she didn't look happy. I also thought to have a bit of word play, taking the earlier 3 minutes comment and deliberately misunderstanding by applying to the girl. There was also an implied acknowledgment of the skill of the artist in rendering the girls face with such reality and clarity that her mood was clearly displayed.

    Sent from my CPH1851 using Tapatalk
    You don't know many Finns perhaps.
    It never seems that they are not happy, they just don't wear it on their sleeve.
    I had some very interesting relationships with Finns when I was working up in the NW. Salt of the earth, I would trust them with my bank book or my wife. And they know how to party...
    I worked with a Finlander down here when I was logging. Nick Hutula was the head rigger for the largest Redwood logging show on the West Coast in the 1930's -40's
    He was retired when I knew him, but allowed to live in perpetuity in one of the management homes at the company "town" Which was largely abandoned when I arrived. The mill was defunct, it couldn't saw anything less than 8 feet dia
    He was always ready to lend a hand, though and would just be there when I needed it. (I was the mechanic and worked out of my truck, alone. I asked him once when we were wrestling with D-8, putting the blade back on. I asked him if he wanted a pair of canvas riggers gloves. (I bought them by the dozen) He looked at me with that dour look and said "Gloves wear out". Probably one of the funniest things I've ever heard, he never cracked a smile. In Mew England we called that "dry"! He was about 75 years old. He gifted me his hand forged marlin spikes, which have a place of honor in my truck still.

    Nick as a young man at work 1931. Yarding a Shay locomotive across a canyon in Big Basin
    The spike to splice that high lead (thicker than my arm) was 3 feet long.


  4. #39
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    Default Re: Explain this rig?

    Quote Originally Posted by Canoeyawl View Post
    You don't know many Finns perhaps.
    It never seems that they are not happy, they just don't wear it on their sleeve.
    I had some very interesting relationships with Finns when I was working up in the NW. Salt of the earth, I would trust them with my bank book or my wife. And they know how to party...
    I worked with a Finlander down here when I was logging. Nick Hutula was the head rigger for the largest Redwood logging show on the West Coast in the 1930's -40's
    He was retired when I knew him, but allowed to live in perpetuity in one of the management homes at the company "town" Which was largely abandoned when I arrived. The mill was defunct, it couldn't saw anything less than 8 feet dia
    He was always ready to lend a hand, though and would just be there when I needed it. (I was the mechanic and worked out of my truck, alone. I asked him once when we were wrestling with D-8, putting the blade back on. I asked him if he wanted a pair of canvas riggers gloves. (I bought them by the dozen) He looked at me with that dour look and said "Gloves wear out". Probably one of the funniest things I've ever heard, he never cracked a smile. In Mew England we called that "dry"! He was about 75 years old. He gifted me his hand forged marlin spikes, which have a place of honor in my truck still.

    Nick as a young man at work 1931. Yarding a Shay locomotive across a canyon in Big Basin
    The spike to splice that high lead (thicker than my arm) was 3 feet long.

    They run a little Shay (I think) near here on an old logging railway. Tourist rides, now, but on the narrow gauge whatsit they used to log on.

    Anyway, when I run barefoot, people often comment about my lack of shoes. I sometimes say I like to run in the first shoes my mom gave me.

    Peace,
    Smiles Too Damned Much

  5. #40
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    Default Re: Explain this rig?

    Rob, back in the late 70s or early 80s did you ride bikes barefoot on Phil Wood platform pedals?

  6. #41
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    Default Re: Explain this rig?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike.Higgins.94301 View Post
    Rob, back in the late 70s or early 80s did you ride bikes barefoot on Phil Wood platform pedals?
    No.

    I started running barefooted after I recovered from paralysis, as it was an outgrowth of the therapies I endured to regain partial movement of my foot and leg, and most of the feeling. All the bad ones.

    I did have a few Phil parts, though. Never pedals. I keep a tube of grease with just a bit in it yet, just to crack the cap and take a whiff, now and again. Reminds me of 1980s bike shops.

    Peace,
    Robert

  7. #42
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    Default Re: Explain this rig?

    I have a dislike for a boomless mainsail and think any problem with having a boom is far over compensated by advantages. The friction on the mainsheet in the photo looks fierce to me and I don't think it's a good solution and would never have it. Love the picture and think the boat is a mess. Tradition is often just wrong.

    I do know some Finns and have designed a couple boats built by Finns. I don't find them sour as some seem to, but perhaps more realistic. They have had a lot to be concerned about, living that close to an acquisitive big bully

    The girl looks to be thinking "I'd much rather be home by the fire". Seems an acceptable and likely attitude in this circumstance regardless of contrary opinions and I support Phil Y's opinion as his own and not open to argument.
    Last edited by Tom Lathrop; 01-31-2020 at 10:25 AM.
    Tom L

  8. #43
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    Default Re: Explain this rig?

    Fishing dories often used unstayed masts with a jib which gives you just a single halyard. See, for example, the 17' Swampscott built at MSM : 1974.1025. With the additional painting showing the fisherman carrying the mast, it is clear this is a small single sticker. You can see that as well in the curve of the sheer ahead of the young lady.
    Ben Fuller
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  9. #44
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    Default Re: Explain this rig?

    Quote Originally Posted by Canoeyawl View Post
    So the gal with the oars has the perspective then.
    I wonder where they stowed the oars?
    In similar Shetland boats, the oars go forward.
    finished 008.jpg
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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  10. #45
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    Default Re: Explain this rig?

    Been some discussion about sheet leads. One of the things that we moderns raised in a racing tradition is that we can take the tension off a sheet by a little luff. And having some friction in the system is kind of what rachet blocks do. I've run sheets in bee holes and as long as the hole is big and smooth enough so that the sheet runs free when you cast it off, and you are willing to give it a bit of luff when you want to trim you are just fine. The friction of the holes helps you hang on.

    Norse boats seemingly carried oars with blades forward. On some of the small ones like faerings, the blades might stick out ahead of the stem. Certainly that is convenient to carry mine. Also where I carry the mast and rolled up sail when I am rowing.

    Seeing no oars in the painting, and the position of the forward thole pins, my guess is that the oars here have their handles stuck under the forward rowing bench and stick out forward. Note the wear in the oars the painter caught in the painting that shows the family headed to the boat. We have an oar like that used in the last double ender ( peapod) used actively lobster fishing at the Penobscot Marine Museum collection.
    Last edited by Ben Fuller; 01-31-2020 at 10:21 PM.
    Ben Fuller
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    "Bound fast is boatless man."

  11. #46
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    Default Re: Explain this rig?

    The painter's just ahead in an Avon inflatable with a Honda outboard.
    Probably a bright red one, which explains the young lady's smile

  12. #47
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    Default Re: Explain this rig?

    Quote Originally Posted by Phil Y View Post
    Obviously the painter would be way up in the bow. Probably made fast to the stemhead.

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    With his easel lashed to the windward gunwale to be clear of the for'sl.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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  13. #48
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    Default Re: Explain this rig?

    Quote Originally Posted by Phil Y View Post
    Obviously the painter would be way up in the bow. Probably made fast to the stemhead.

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    Perhaps the other daughter from the other painting?

  14. #49
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    Oh come on guys. It's word play again. The painter being the bit of rope at the front of the boat. Anyway it's gone. And I didn't make it go.

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  15. #50
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    Default Re: Explain this rig?

    I’d guess the girl is waiting for the artist to fall off the boat and then needs to be picked up... (what a bother...)

  16. #51
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    Default Re: Explain this rig?

    Quote Originally Posted by Phil Y View Post
    Oh come on guys. It's word play again. The painter being the bit of rope at the front of the boat. Anyway it's gone. And I didn't make it go.

    Sent from my CPH1851 using Tapatalk
    I’m late to the party (surprise!), but I actually GOT that. And chuckled.

    Of course, all my boats are wee things, and they all have a painter.

    Peace,
    Robert

  17. #52
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    Default

    <=>-----

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  18. #53
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    Well that didn't work.

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  19. #54
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    Default Re: Explain this rig?

    I'm with you. The foresail sheet is at the same exact angle as the mizzen and it's a big boat. The rails aren't converging much at the point where the picture bisects it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Canoeyawl View Post
    It's not a jib sheet, it is the fore sail sheet led under the thwart in a similar manner that the mizzen sail is led from aft.
    The person painting the picture is holding it. A cat ketch for my money.

  20. #55
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    Default Re: Explain this rig?

    Quote Originally Posted by earling2 View Post
    I'm with you. The foresail sheet is at the same exact angle as the mizzen and it's a big boat. The rails aren't converging much at the point where the picture bisects it.
    I can't see cat ketch in any of the postings in #24, and the foresails there look like they are all overlapping. The fisherman in #33 only has one mast and sail on his shoulder.
    Ben Fuller
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  21. #56
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    Default Re: Explain this rig?

    This is a Swedish boat, but probably fairly universal in the Baltic

    https://batritningar.se/en/boatplans...=6%2C7%2C8%2C9

    And so will be fairly representative of the Finnish boat of the OP.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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  22. #57
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    Default Re: Explain this rig?

    The painting is most likely showing this kind of boat:
    pieni02.jpg

    Or this:
    Allmoge 5.jpg

    I have never seen these traditional boats with a ketch rig (as suggested by some here) and they also call the aft sail always main.

  23. #58
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    Default Re: Explain this rig?

    I love the painting. I can't help but be a bit bemused by the idea of the artist being aboard. I remember when I was fishing with my father there was a videographer that was hellbent on spending a day on the water with us to document the fishing industry/life whatever. It took months at least maybe even years before my father agreed to have him aboard and even then it was "you can stand in that corner and by christ don't get in the way!" and that was on a 48' lobster boat.

    I can picture the boat being set up on blocks just above high water mark. If you look at the waves they are not natural looking for what should be out on the water. They look much more like waves breaking on the beach. I bet that would better explain the look on their faces in posing for the picture thinking to themselves " ...does seem a little silly sitting here for hours in this boat propped up on the beach"... "Shouldn't we be out fishing trying to earn a living instead"... "Is this guy really going to pay us for sitting here doing nothing for half the day?"
    Last edited by MalabarJr; 02-07-2020 at 01:45 PM.

  24. #59
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    Default Re: Explain this rig?

    Quote Originally Posted by MalabarJr View Post








    I can picture the boat being set up on blocks just above high water mark. If you look at the waves they are not natural looking for what should be out on the water. They look much more like waves breaking on the beach. I bet that would better explain the look on their faces in posing for the picture thinking to themselves " ...does seem a little silly sitting here for hours in this boat propped up on the beach"... "Shouldn't we be out fishing trying to earn a living instead"... "Is this guy really going to pay us for sitting here doing nothing for half the day?"
    I found myself thinking that there is a hell of a lot of supposition in trying to create a context for this painting, then I looked again at those waves you mentioned and understood what you are saying.

    The question I ask is, does the painting stand on its own, or does it need to be critically dissected? All the time remembering that painting is a visual art.
    There is nothing quite as permanent as a good temporary repair.

  25. #60
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    Default Re: Explain this rig?

    I guess I was just having a little fun speculating. I was also enjoying the discussion on the rig particulars. There is alot about the painting that is thought provoking in my opinion.

  26. #61
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    Default Re: Explain this rig?

    Seas are notoriously difficult to paint, he has not done badly. He knows the boat, how it is rigged and how it sails. Nuff said.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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  27. #62
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    Default Re: Explain this rig?

    To me it looks more like a chop than seas.

  28. #63
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    Default Re: Explain this rig?

    Quote Originally Posted by Canoeyawl View Post
    To me it looks more like a chop than seas.
    I was referring to that salty wet stuff in all its variety.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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  29. #64
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    Default Re: Explain this rig?

    Worth looking at the painter's bio a bit. He studied in Paris with Gerome as did Eakins. This painting is complex enough to be a studio or staged painting. Artist may have been out on the boat with a sketch book/ pad but the easel wasn't there. The two paintings of the same people indicate that he might have had them posing. So the speculation of a set up of some kind in #58 is kind of interesting. There is a bunch of stuff that we don't know: basic stuff, oil? size? location of painting now? Has there been research done about how the artist worked like there has about Eakins? Eakins, for example, might work out the basics in a drawing then project points into the painting. Not knowin' no tellin'
    Ben Fuller
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  30. #65
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    Default Re: Explain this rig?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ben Fuller View Post
    Worth looking at the painter's bio a bit.
    As a study of Winslow Homer's methods of working would be good. Different boats, different times, but many similarities to the painting in the OP.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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  31. #66
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    Default Re: Explain this rig?

    It is known that Edelfelt took part in herring fishing and was impressed. According to scholars that inspired him to do this painting.

    The girl in the picture is one of his favorite models (not a fisherman's daughter) so probably he has composed the boat from the top of his head or used some sketches and the girl (Sofia ("Fio") Salenius) was posing in his atelier.

    The Finnish archipelago isn't very deep so a chop describes the wave form perfectly and that is what we see in the painting.

  32. #67
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    Default Re: Explain this rig?

    Obviously a double ended boat from either the eastern part of Åland let's say Brändö or Kumlinge or a pretty much similar boat from the archipelago in Åboland which is the Finnish coast east of Åland.
    Most likely the mainmast in a twomasted boat as indicated by the single halyard though it could be a mainsail without halyard and the halyard would be for a jib staysail. The jib sheet whether the jib is a loosefooted spritsail on a foremast or a staysail set flying is sheeted to the lee gunwale aft of the mainmast just at the right edge of the picture and hence there is another now loose sheet leading to windward so you don't need to bring the sheet around the main mast when tacking. Spritsail laced to the mast with a spiral of thin rope. The sprit held to the mast by a simple strap which had to be kept wet to not slide down the mast.

    All of it correct as far as I can see. Even the sea looks rather authentic. The waters east of Åland have enormous depth variations and are full of reefs and skerries between deep channels. With the brackish Baltic water and that sort of seafloor you get that sort of sea.

    The only thing that looks odd is that I don't see the oars though there may be an explanation. I don't know how Ålanders stowed the oars. In at least some parts of Österbotten which is further up the coast the forward pair of oars was often stowed with the blades pointing aft and the aft pair of oars were stowerd with the blades pointing forward. That way each rower could easily find the right pair of oars.

    In the 19th century when the single square sail of old days was replaced with sprit sails for increased safety the main mast remained where it always had been just forward of the center of the boat at the strong frame which reinforced the boat at the point of greatest stress. Though the shrouds and the forestay were omitted and replaced with a solid board called segelträ holding the now unstayed mast. Further forward where the strong bow frames provided rigidity another segelträ was added for a new foremast carrying a smaller spritsail bringing the sail center forward.
    In fact my motorboat built from fiberglass in 1981 still has that strong wooden crossbeam right where the single mast for the old square sail stood centuries ago.
    Last edited by heimlaga; 02-10-2020 at 02:20 PM.
    Amateur living on the western coast of Finland

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