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Thread: looking for design of this lug yawl

  1. #1
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    Default looking for design of this lug yawl

    I have become obsessed with trying to find plans to build this boat or something similar
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    Default Re: looking for design of this lug yawl

    some info online: 1997 Classic 18' Lugsail Yawl
    Fowey, Cornwall, United Kingdom
    Specs
    Builder: Bourne Plastics
    Designer: Ian Proctor
    Keel: Centerboard

    Dimensions
    Beam: 7 ft 6 in
    Length of Deck: 18 ft 0 in
    Minimum Draft: 0 ft 10 in
    Maximum Draft: 4 ft 3 in
    Ballast: 65 lbs
    Dry Weight: 500 lbs

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    Default Re: looking for design of this lug yawl

    more info:A very unusual and eye catching day boat which has won muchsilverware at classic boat regattas and has graced the pages of severalyachting magazines both here and in France. The hull is a Proctordesigned National 18 and was built to order for the present owner by BournePlastics.
    Professionally converted by Sail & Oar of Totnes in 1996 totake a lugsail rig, the 180 sq. ft (16.6 sq m) sail plan gives an outstandingperformance in very light airs, and when the wind picks up the sailing istotally exhilarating. Three large reefs keep the boat easilymanageable for a crew of two. The owner usually sails with just 2 people andhas cruised her around Cornwall as a husband and wife crew. She has won1st overall at both Fowey and Falmouth Classic regattas plus a number of otherprizes, including 2nd overall in the Great Glen Raid 2001.
    This is a unique and very special boat in excellent condition and willsuit someone looking for an unusual yet fast and competitive day boat. She is tough, spacious and stable and is an ideal boat for dinghycruising as well as round the cans racing (a trapeze can be fitted and isincluded with the other equipment). She is big enough to sail up and downthe coast in comfort and with pace.

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    Default Re: looking for design of this lug yawl

    Length onDeck 18'
    Lengthoverall 22'9"
    Length waterline 18'
    Beam 7'5"
    Draught plate up 10"
    Draught plate down 4'3"
    Hull weight approx 500 lbs /227 kg
    Sailing weight (2crew) 950lbs /430 kg

    Construction
    GRP hull laid up using woven glass cloth in the usual manner,however the resin has no pigment in it, as specified by the owner, so thestructure of the glass was visible (no short ends, voids or hollows)
    Side deck and foredeck laid in varnished Robbins Elite marineplywood with solid mahogany coamings all round and a solid mahogany rubbingstrake. The large cockpit is self draining and there is watertightstowage space for cruising gear under the foredeck plus in six large lockersbelow the cockpit floor.
    Hinged cast alloy aerofoil centreplate of 65lbs in a case.

    Rig
    Lug yawl rig on keel stepped unstayed Carbospars carbon fibremasts and main boom with a highly advanced zero deflection carbon fibre lugyard by CompoTech.
    Sails by James Lawrence. Large fully battened mainsailwith 3 reefs (163 sq ft/15.1 sq m)
    Loose footed bermudan “leg-of-mutton” mizzen (17 sqft/1.5 sq m) sets to a removable carbon fibre bumpkin
    The use of modern materials makes the rig very lightweight,reducing weight aloft and making it easy to handle

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    Default Re: looking for design of this lug yawl

    I plan on building hull in wood - cold mold or more likely glued lapstrake. Designs for which plans are available that I've found include Uffa Fox's Ace - the original National 18, and though a little shorter that of Fulmar by Oughtred. Meester did a nice lug yawl with Core Sound 15 hull, so also considering that. https://messing-about.com/forums/top...a-lug-yawl-rig. thoughts and ideas much appreciated. I built a Shellback and love the lug sail rig and concept

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    Default Re: looking for design of this lug yawl

    I wonder whether it was an Osprey hull that they re rigged? http://ospreysailing.org.uk/cms2/



    https://sailboatdata.com/designer/proctor-ian
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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  8. #8
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    Default Re: looking for design of this lug yawl

    "The hull is an Ian Proctor designed National 18" but I can't find any plans for that and it was made for GRP

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    Default Re: looking for design of this lug yawl

    Interesting that it is missing from that list you linked, when I saw that earlier, I thought I had it...

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    Default Re: looking for design of this lug yawl

    Quote Originally Posted by gray duck View Post
    "The hull is an Ian Proctor designed National 18" but I can't find any plans for that and it was made for GRP
    Plans would not have been published. Once the mould had been built plans are unnessesary for the hull.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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    Default Re: looking for design of this lug yawl

    I don't think you should focus too much on Ian Proctor. For that classic dinghy look, and probably a more stable hull, why not build the hull of the first National 18, Uffa Fox's Ace? You can get plans here: http://www.uffafox.com/uffaace.htm

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    Default Re: looking for design of this lug yawl

    I like the Uffa Ace boat (or the Jolly boat) - Two questions: 1. cold mold or glued lapstrake? (I'm thinking cold but I like the wood working of lapstrake) 2. And how do I figure out mast placement and centerboard for yawl rig?

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    Default Re: looking for design of this lug yawl

    Reminds me of the slightly larger Highlander: https://sailboatdata.com/sailboat/highlander



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    Default Re: looking for design of this lug yawl

    Quote Originally Posted by gray duck View Post
    I like the Uffa Ace boat (or the Jolly boat) - Two questions: 1. cold mold or glued lapstrake? (I'm thinking cold but I like the wood working of lapstrake) 2. And how do I figure out mast placement and centerboard for yawl rig?
    I would think strip plank or glued lapstrake. There are a number of texts that will tell you how to find the center of area of the rig. I can't even remember which I learned it from. Chapelle's Yacht Designing and Planning probably has that in it.

    The mizzen in this rig is not a driving sail, so some like to make it a little bigger than balance would indicate. It's very handy for getting the boat to sit head to wind while you reef the main.

    The Jolly Boat is something like a foot narrower, so a very different boat.

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    Default Re: looking for design of this lug yawl

    Quote Originally Posted by gray duck View Post
    I like the Uffa Ace boat (or the Jolly boat) - Two questions: 1. cold mold or glued lapstrake? (I'm thinking cold but I like the wood working of lapstrake) 2. And how do I figure out mast placement and centerboard for yawl rig?
    Leave the CB alone. Work out the CoE of the Bermudian sloop then design a lug foresail and place its CoE in the location that brings the CoE of the new rig into the same location.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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  16. #16
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    Default Re: looking for design of this lug yawl

    Here's the sail plan for the Uffa Ace. You can work out the scale, because you know the boat is 18' long.



    You should be able to work out the CE from that.

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    Default Re: looking for design of this lug yawl

    http://www.uffafox.com/jollybt.htm

    lines, offsets, and sail plan are a available. Like has been said leave the board were it is and put the rig on you like.
    That would be a cool build.
    "Yeah, well, that's just, like your opinion man"
    -The Dude-

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    Default Re: looking for design of this lug yawl

    Quote Originally Posted by Matt young View Post
    http://www.uffafox.com/jollybt.htm

    lines, offsets, and sail plan are a available. Like has been said leave the board were it is and put the rig on you like.
    That would be a cool build.
    It would be challenging to built the hull of a Jollyboat at the design weight of 250 lb. Fairey built them hot molded.

  19. #19
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    Default Re: looking for design of this lug yawl

    I would strongly suspect that the hull of the boat originally described is the well established Ian Proctor National 18 and goodness knows where the old Bourne Plastics moulds wound up.The class has had a bit of a resurgence in the last few ears and there is a more modern design that seems to have attracted a number of owners.The hull may be suitable for adaptation and I imagine a bit of googling would locate the moulder.The class rules of the National 18 may also be online as a reference.

  20. #20
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    Default Re: looking for design of this lug yawl

    Quote Originally Posted by John Meachen View Post
    I would strongly suspect that the hull of the boat originally described is the well established Ian Proctor National 18 and goodness knows where the old Bourne Plastics moulds wound up.The class has had a bit of a resurgence in the last few ears and there is a more modern design that seems to have attracted a number of owners.The hull may be suitable for adaptation and I imagine a bit of googling would locate the moulder.The class rules of the National 18 may also be online as a reference.
    The new boats are a lot wider at the deck and narrower at the waterline, with very little form stability, so not the best candidates for this type of use. Here's a modern National 18:



    And here's the Uffa Ace:



    As you can see, the Ace has a lot of form stability, while the modern 18 relies on the weight of an extremely active crew.

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    Default Re: looking for design of this lug yawl

    Quote Originally Posted by johnw View Post
    It would be challenging to built the hull of a Jollyboat at the design weight of 250 lb. Fairey built them hot molded.
    Good point John,
    Interestingly last night I was reading about how NGH got his Coquina built to 275 pounds hull weight, working pretty hard getting the scantlings down, 5/16" cedar lapstrake 11/16" frames, it is 16'8" x 5'0". JollyBoat is 18'0" x 5'0". So yeah 250 would be a challenge. Maybe 1/4" cedar strip planked with a conservative cloth and resin shell could get close, I don't know.

    Ace looks good too.
    "Yeah, well, that's just, like your opinion man"
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  22. #22
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    Default Re: looking for design of this lug yawl

    Quote Originally Posted by Matt young View Post
    Good point John,
    Interestingly last night I was reading about how NGH got his Coquina built to 275 pounds hull weight, working pretty hard getting the scantlings down, 5/16" cedar lapstrake 11/16" frames, it is 16'8" x 5'0". JollyBoat is 18'0" x 5'0". So yeah 250 would be a challenge. Maybe 1/4" cedar strip planked with a conservative cloth and resin shell could get close, I don't know.

    Ace looks good too.
    A Jollyboat would row better, don't know if that's an issue. A boat strip planked in 1/4 inch cedar would be pretty fragile.

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    Default Re: looking for design of this lug yawl

    Some place around there is an article about this boat, racing it against other National 18's with a trapeze. Complaint people had was being passed by a planing lugger. Apparently mast rake is important; a lug sail set on a well raked mast is said by some to be a lifting sail off the wind.
    Ben Fuller
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  24. #24
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    Default Re: looking for design of this lug yawl

    Those balanced lugs pull like anything off the wind.

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    Default Re: looking for design of this lug yawl

    Quote Originally Posted by Ben Fuller View Post
    Some place around there is an article about this boat, racing it against other National 18's with a trapeze. Complaint people had was being passed by a planing lugger. Apparently mast rake is important; a lug sail set on a well raked mast is said by some to be a lifting sail off the wind.
    That certainly is true of a dipping lug, so lots of mast rake will have the same effect for standing and balanced lug.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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    Default Re: looking for design of this lug yawl

    OK, I'll expose my ignorance, yet again.

    What difference does mast rake make for a dipping lug rig? It is a single fixed point aloft for the yard. Could you not move the mast further aft, and vertical, and have the same shift of CoE?

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    Default Re: looking for design of this lug yawl

    Quote Originally Posted by Peerie Maa View Post
    That certainly is true of a dipping lug, so lots of mast rake will have the same effect for standing and balanced lug.
    Irens did this with his Roxane/Romilly series and I tried it with my Dias Harrier; may not have raked it enough.
    Ben Fuller
    Ran Tan, Liten Kuhling, Tipsy, Tippy, Josef W., Merry Mouth, Imp, Macavity, Look Far, Flash and a quiver of other 'yaks.
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    Default Re: looking for design of this lug yawl

    Quote Originally Posted by lupussonic View Post
    OK, I'll expose my ignorance, yet again.

    What difference does mast rake make for a dipping lug rig? It is a single fixed point aloft for the yard. Could you not move the mast further aft, and vertical, and have the same shift of CoE?
    What you are doing it getting the sail to pull up as well as forward off the wind. Spinnakers do this as do most headsails and the Norse squares.
    Ben Fuller
    Ran Tan, Liten Kuhling, Tipsy, Tippy, Josef W., Merry Mouth, Imp, Macavity, Look Far, Flash and a quiver of other 'yaks.
    "Bound fast is boatless man."

  29. #29
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    Default Re: looking for design of this lug yawl

    Quote Originally Posted by lupussonic View Post
    OK, I'll expose my ignorance, yet again.

    What difference does mast rake make for a dipping lug rig? It is a single fixed point aloft for the yard. Could you not move the mast further aft, and vertical, and have the same shift of CoE?
    Nowt to do with CoE. With a dipping lug off the wind the sail is at an angle to the verticle because the tack is well forward of the halyard. Mast rake does this for standing and balanced lugs. The drive of the sail is then upward as well as forwards.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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    Default Re: looking for design of this lug yawl

    I have a copy of the original sketches for Surprise's sailplan set-up which I had intended for my own conversion of an old 18, but for various reasons was never completed. I got as far as having a lugsail made. It sits in the container, still in it's sail bag.
    Surprise was originally intended to be a loose footed standing lug, but evolved over time to be a boomed balanced lug, on an unstayed carbon mast with carbon spars.

    In addition surprise was somewhat overbuilt back in the late 60's as she was never intended to be a racing dinghy, but rather a cruiser. An article in Classic Boat [1997] details the conversion process.
    Last edited by obscured by clouds; 08-27-2019 at 01:39 PM.
    Yma o hyd

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    Default Re: looking for design of this lug yawl

    Enjoying and learning from listening and I have some books on order to figure out CoE and strip planking is what I'm leaning towards. I'm OK with a little more hull weight cause I'm light and won't always have an athletic crew like the racing 18s. I could put water ballast tanks under draining cockpit floor. OBC, thanks for your on the ground and water info! I'm anxious to move this to the build forum but I have lots to figure out.

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    Default Re: looking for design of this lug yawl

    I know some have said to forget about trying to get Proctor's 18 National plans, but is anyone else concerned about the difference in beam between the two hulls and my goal to copy the Surprise sail plan? Max beam of Ace is 6'1" and Surprise is 7'6". Some of Surprise beam could come from deck overhang but I'm concerned. thanks

  33. #33
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    Default Re: looking for design of this lug yawl

    Quote Originally Posted by gray duck View Post
    I know some have said to forget about trying to get Proctor's 18 National plans, but is anyone else concerned about the difference in beam between the two hulls and my goal to copy the Surprise sail plan? Max beam of Ace is 6'1" and Surprise is 7'6". Some of Surprise beam could come from deck overhang but I'm concerned. thanks
    See post #20. The Ace has more form stability.

  34. #34
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    Default Re: looking for design of this lug yawl

    Quote Originally Posted by gray duck View Post
    I know some have said to forget about trying to get Proctor's 18 National plans, but is anyone else concerned about the difference in beam between the two hulls and my goal to copy the Surprise sail plan? Max beam of Ace is 6'1" and Surprise is 7'6". Some of Surprise beam could come from deck overhang but I'm concerned. thanks
    Quote Originally Posted by johnw View Post
    See post #20. The Ace has more form stability.
    Yes, waterline beam can be more important than beam at the deck, unless you and your crew love hanging out over the side with a wet bum.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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  35. #35
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    Default Re: looking for design of this lug yawl

    Ace is a 'pre' N18. The mk 1 '18' followed the Ace design, but was tweaked and lasted until the mid 60's when Ian proctor was asked for a new design in grp as the wooden ones were getting too expensive to build. The Mk 2 was the 18 that carried on until a few years back when the mk3 was introduced.
    There are a few wooden clinker examples still sailing and racing, numerous mk2's with all manner of fit out and cockpit variations [hull, rig, sails are one design] and a few mk3's which I think are all one design.
    At the nationals they all sail together.
    Yma o hyd

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