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Thread: Have I picked the right boat?

  1. #1
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    Default Have I picked the right boat?

    I'm hoping for some input on the suitability of a design for my use. I currently sail a 14 foot fiberglass boat that meets all my needs for day trips and sail camping solo or with one friend. I sail on the edges of San Francisco bay, on smaller nearby bays, and on mountain lakes. I'm looking to build a larger boat so that can take both of my kids - and maybe my wife - out for these kind of trips.
    I understand that I'd spend way less money and time if I just bought a larger plastic daysailer. I'm in this for the building as well as the sailing. I made a skin-on-frame Gentry Whitehall last year and loved it. My boys are very young, so I have plenty of time to finish the project. On the other hand my boys are still very young, so I won't have as much time as I like on any given day to work on the project. I figure it could take me three or four years to finish.

    Required features include:
    * Easy to beach / Easy to trailer / no longer than 19' (driveway storage)
    * Self-rescue capable after a capsize. Self-bailing sounds good. This really matters to me- I have a vision of sitting ashore, watching my teenage sons sail this boat together. That's a lot of risk-seeking, poorly reasoning eggs in one basket. I want a design that can handle our mistakes.
    * Quick to rig for day trips after work.
    * Comfortable for 3-4 adults when sailing, with storage capacity for backpack camping gear for the same number.
    * Can be launched and sailed solo by one athletic adult.

    Desired features include:
    * Comfortable sleeping space for 1-2 adults aboard
    * Good looking / fast / weatherly
    * At least some plan for movement under oars. I like rowing, but I recognize that I'm not going to find an official sail-and-oar cruiser that meets the requirements above. I'd like to be able to get off the dock under oars or to row a few miles in a dead calm. I'm willing to attach an outboard for longer trips.
    * Costs nothing, blue water capable, en-suite hot tub, cartoppable (just kidding)

    After years of reading and daydreaming, I think I've settled on Vivier's Stir Ven 19 (Open Cockpit Version).



    Hull length / waterline 5.70 / 5.07 m Sail area 21.3 mē
    Breadth / waterline 2.08 / 1.80 m Outboard motor 6 ch
    Draugth 0.25 / 1.1 m Design category / Crew C5
    Light weight / ballast 535 / 120 kg Building time 700 heures


    The Stir Ven 19 must be built from CNC-cut plywood, which is OK with me. I have (just barely) enough room to build her at home. My concerns are less about building and more about sailing. Specifically:

    * Rigging time - I have never sailed a gaff rig but I hear they are fiddly. I wrote the designer, and he said that he can launch his larger Stir-Ven 22 in about fifteen minutes becuase he's carefully thought through all the details. I'm sure that's true, but I still wonder about mere mortals like me. Does anyone have experience streamlining the rigging of a trailer gaffer?
    * Size of the boat for a singlehander. I have no trouble launching and sailing my 14' 400 lb boat solo. When I finsh building this next boat, I'll need to sell my current 14 footer to make room in the driveway. I still want to enjoy singlehanding. The Stir Ven 19 is five feet longer, about twice as heavy, and will have about twice as much sail area. I'm a bit intimidated by that- but at the same time, I'm looking for a bigger boat, so what am I to expect? Would you want to sail this boat singlehanded?

    I'd appreciate any thoughts you'd care to share.

  2. #2
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    Default Re: Have I picked the right boat?

    Yes, I would certainly singlehand that boat.

    That is potentially a lot of rigging, the key I think to success will be how the mast steps, if you can't figure out a way to do it by yourself all bets are off. It is an open boat so you should be able to drop the heel of the mast into a slot built up around the step. Walk it up, tie off and then set up the forestay. 15 minutes? Given a season of sailing to work out the wrinkles, probably.
    Steve

    Boats, like whiskey, are all good.
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  3. #3
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    Default Re: Have I picked the right boat?

    Singlehanding, no problem at all with that boat. You'll get used to it very quickly. Launch time is all about organizing things and having a fixed routine. I've always found it takes longer to pack up than it does to set up. The biggest potential issue I see is raising the mast. How heavy is it, and can it be swung up from the step into a gate in the partner? If you have to lift it and drop it down through the partner, that will make things much more difficult. On a windy day, even dangerous. If it were my boat, I would replace the water ballast with lead. One less procedure to go through. But yes, that is a sweet boat.
    -Dave

  4. #4
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    Default Re: Have I picked the right boat?

    Looks good to me . One assumes the spar has a gate. Lifting it up and in as Dave sez would be nuts .
    A few times in the driveway , I can see 20 or 30 minutes no problem.
    There will be an hour or three at each end at home to prep, wash , dry, cover... but that is any boat .
    There will always be that one pesky halyard that’s has a wrap , we’re only human.
    bruce

  5. #5
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    Default Re: Have I picked the right boat?

    Single-handing: no problem.

    It's not so much that gaff sails are fiddly but that there is a great deal of control. You can maximize things but you can also screw them up. Read "The Competitive Cat" by Bill Welch. Yeah, it's about catboat racing, but the heart of the book includes the best practical dissertation on how to set and trim a gaff sail.

    Rigging and launching: If there's a gate at the partners, then sure. Leave the sail on the gaff and keep gaff and boom separate from the mast. I'd rig on the trailer. For travel have stays and halyards lashed to the mast with a long chain knot that will take you maybe two minutes to set when you strike the mast and 5 seconds to undo before you step. Put the heel of the mast in the step and the top out over the stern. Stand in the stern, get the mast on your shoulder and move forward. Once you're in the partners, hold the mast with one hand and lock the gate. Now you can set up the stays, hang the spars, use the correct lashing for the luff, and off you go.

    G'luck

  6. #6
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    Default Re: Have I picked the right boat?

    Sailing it single-handed should be no problems, depending on your experience you may want to practice a bit/a lot in really calm weather though.
    Stepping, and in particular unstepping the mast may be problematic as others have pointed out.
    It looks like there is a hole in the fore deck for the mast and while possible it's not that easy to unstep the mast with that solution, so you may want to alter it.
    My previous boat was 6 m long (~6.5 m long mast) and had a hole through the mast bench for the mast. What I did when stepping the mast was not lift and insert; I put the end of the mast at the hole while standing as far aft in the boat as possible, then walked forward rising the mast top little by little until the mast just popped through. When reversing that maneuver there is a high risk of losing control and dropping the mast top onto the aft part of the boat with damages to the boat, mast and oneself. I did it a lot with that boat, but I cannot say it was easy.

    /Mats

  7. #7
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    Default Re: Have I picked the right boat?

    30 ft is "about" right for two people sleeping aboard single-handing should be doable with only a little bit of sail experience all up to about 40ft, whatever boat you build it's going to be too small guaranteed no matter how big it is!
    Denise, Bristol PA, Oday30, Anchor Yacht Club, On tidal Delaware River. my current project; http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...0-Ducker-Resto

  8. #8
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    Default Re: Have I picked the right boat?

    Very reassuring feedback, thanks. I hear a clear consensus that mast raising is the crux. It looks to me like the design considers this. This video (10 s) shows one person raising the mast easily:

    Admittedly those aren't windy conditions, but I think that the exposed step and rope gate should make stepping under rougher conditions possible.


    Again, thanks for all the helpful feedback.

  9. #9
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    Default Re: Have I picked the right boat?

    Mats gives some astute knowledged that is based on his own experience and I tip my hat to him for that! Pez Leon has some good comments on mast raising to keep things simple as well. Sometimes it can help to hank on a tag line to bottom of the head stay to get a better angle of purchase for stepping the mast.

    You might just want to do some further research on cruising in small craft by reading a good book entitled "The Complete Cruiser" by the famous yacht designer L. Francis Herreshoff. Another book that is a good read is his book "An L. Francis Herreshoff Reader".
    Both can be found at Barns and Noble or Amazon.
    I once knew a fellow who lived at Friday Harbor in Puget Sound who took his wife and two children on a cruise to Alaska in an open double ender. They had a grand time because Dad was a well seasoned small boat handler.
    Jay
    Last edited by Jay Greer; 01-13-2020 at 02:00 PM.

  10. #10
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    Default Re: Have I picked the right boat?

    Thats a great boat. Just putting this past you...the Ebihen 16 single Lug rig version will carry a family, decent freeboard & 'seaworthy', sleep two on the floor, has lead and water ballast...the engine is right next to the helm in front of the prop, better than over the transom on the Stir Ven for singlehanding, when you might need to drop the sail and motor a little way, or in a controlled fashion upto a jetty. Before that point, solo you can just brail the sail or drop the lot and have no windage as you bring her alongside, which will make her very manageable. Also for sailing after work, it's just one short mast, one sail, one halyard, one sheet and no boom, shrouds or luff lacing. It will be up the river pretty quickly. Just sayin. Go for the smallest simplist boat that can meet your needs. I sail a gunter but leave it rigged.


  11. #11
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    Default Re: Have I picked the right boat?

    Biggest nuisance in rigging a gaffer is attaching the sail to the mast and making up all the rigging to keep it from flying around on a trailer. I have a long slippery bag into which I can slide the boom and gaff with the sail attached and another one for the mast / shrouds . I use robands and toggles to fasten the main onto the mast which works quite well, even in subfreezing weather as this is all for my iceboat.
    Ben Fuller
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    "Bound fast is boatless man."

  12. #12
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    Default Re: Have I picked the right boat?

    In general I prefer lacing to robands and toggles, but someone not constantly practiced will find the robands and toggle faster and neater.

    Since the boom is loose footed, a fold and roll around the gaff will do for that, with a nice sleeve to contain it all.

  13. #13
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    Default Re: Have I picked the right boat?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ian McColgin View Post
    In general I prefer lacing to robands and toggles, but someone not constantly practiced will find the robands and toggle faster and neater.

    Since the boom is loose footed, a fold and roll around the gaff will do for that, with a nice sleeve to contain it all.
    I was lacing my gaff rig onto my mast but with below freezing temps it took too long and was too finicky. I ended up making up diagonal robands with seized loops and little toggles and my hands are much happier.
    Ben Fuller
    Ran Tan, Liten Kuhling, Tipsy, Tippy, Josef W., Merry Mouth, Imp, Macavity, Look Far, Flash and a quiver of other 'yaks.
    "Bound fast is boatless man."

  14. #14
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    Default Re: Have I picked the right boat?

    Fitting a tabernacle (in the rear right place) will allow you to leave the sail, hoops, boom and gaff assembled and on the mast.
    Some A pair of simple shrouds with a headstay and you're done. Everything stays rigged except the headstay. It all goes up in about five minutes. When it is lowered, a full length zippered "sail cover" that encloses all the sticks and the sail, then away you go.

  15. #15
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    Default Re: Have I picked the right boat?

    I also sail SF Bay and nearby sloughs, rivers and lakes. Is the 19' limit the length of the boat on the trailer, or just LOA of the hull? You can cheat with a folding tongue but will want to take that into consideration.

    I'll strongly recommend something that can take a small 4-stroke outboard on the transom, or in a well -- but as someone sailing a 19.5' boat (Caledonia Yawl) with an outboard in a well, the transom mount is much easier for beaching and launching in shallows. The size of the boat means that it will be difficult to row in any sort of wind or against tide or current, even when you pick one of the longer, narrower Sail & Oar™ designs like Oughtred's Ness Yawl.

    In reality you've got a direct conflict between something narrow (5' max) that rows well in all conditions, and something that is wider, more stable and forgiving. If you use oars for easy sheltered rowing, beach launching and the like, you can save the outboard for important needs like getting back before dark, or out of a slough before it goes dry at low tide.

    I like to row and can move my CY under oar in easy conditions, but would need two strong rowers to move it in rougher conditions, and four rowers for heavy winds and currents.

    That said, if you can either stretch your storage space to 20' I'd strongly consider the Ness Yawl or Sooty Tern, or for 18' the Arctic Tern. That design is quite rowable, will carry 4 adults and gear, and is easy to set up. The outboard must be in a well, but that keeps it out of the way under most conditions.
    https://smallboatsmonthly.com/article/arctic-tern/

    Here's a Sooty Tern next to my Caledonia Yawl at last year's Big Lagoon Messabout -- you can see how much more slender the beam is, making it significantly easier under oars.


    And here I'm rowing my CY off the beach with four aboard and room for more. You can see that even with long oars the beam of the CY makes rowing a lot of work, particularly when combined with the windage of a larger boat.
    Last edited by Thorne; 01-14-2020 at 01:37 AM.
    "The enemies of reason have a certain blind look."
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    Default Re: Have I picked the right boat?

    Quote Originally Posted by Edward Pearson View Post
    Go for the smallest simplist boat that can meet your needs.
    Good advice in boats as it is in everything. I'm sure you are exactly right about this. If only I we really knew our needs! The Ebihen 16 was on the short list for sure. I wanted something a bit more spacious and maybe something with a few more lines for crew to pull. Obviously, that directly contradicts my goals of quick rigging and easy singlehanding. The heart wants what it wants. Interestingly the Ebihen 16 is, at least as far as displacement and estimated build time are considered, about as much boat as the Stir Ven 19. But it would be that much easier to trailer and store.
    The smaller boat that came closest to knocking off the Stir Ven 19 was Vivier's Lilou 2:
    Way faster to build, probably enough room for four, and aesthetically just fine. I ruled it out because I can't see any place for even one person to sleep aboard and because I prefer the aesthetics of the Stir Ven. I'm still not 100% confident about this.
    Thanks for the perspective!

  17. #17
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    Default Re: Have I picked the right boat?

    Making sure that it is easy to step and unstep masts is key for any of these to have a pleasant rowing experience. Masts can stick out over the bow or stern if rigged right like the whaleboats did. An unstayed lug rig makes it easier. I drop my sticks if i have any distance to go in a flat calm as the air drag is not insignificant. And if there is an old sea getting oars in and out of the water neatly with masts waving around isn't much fun.
    Ben Fuller
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    "Bound fast is boatless man."

  18. #18
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    Default Re: Have I picked the right boat?

    Quote Originally Posted by Thorne View Post
    I also sail SF Bay and nearby sloughs, rivers and lakes. Is the 19' limit the length of the trailer, or just LOA of the hull? You can cheat with a folding tongue but will want to take that into consideration.
    Hey fantastic- local experience! 19' is a limit imposed by my driveway. A folding tongue would probably help...

    Quote Originally Posted by Thorne View Post
    I'll strongly recommend something that can take a small 4-stroke outboard on the transom, or in a well -- but as someone sailing a 19.5' boat (Caledonia Yawl) with an outboard in a well, the transom mount is much easier for beaching and launching in shallows
    I had never thought about how an outboard well could hamper beaching. Something to consider. The Stir Ven 19 has a cutout on the transom for a small outboard and space for storage in a nearby locker. The setup is visible at 2:20 in this video:

    https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x22ijtz

    Quote Originally Posted by Thorne View Post
    I'd strongly consider the Ness Yawl or Sooty Tern, or for 18' the Arctic Tern.
    Did I ever! I think I could be very happy in any of those boats, and they are undeniably beautiful. I read Oughtred's book and was impressed. My main concern is self-rescue after a capsize. I'm speaking from internet research and not from experience. PLnty of smart people with vast knowledge of small boats sail these boats, and I don't want to offend anyone or slag what is clearly a great design. From videos I've seen of capsize tests under ideal conditions, I'm not convinced that I could bail out one of these boats fast enough to make a difference in a hard chance. This concern is magnified when I think about my kids sailing without me. Vivier's attention to post-capsize recovery won me over.

    Your pictures are fantastic. Thanks for taking the time to write such detailed advice. If you're ever looking for crew, I'd love to get a better look at your beautiful Caledonia Yawl.
    Last edited by pez_leon; 01-14-2020 at 01:06 AM.

  19. #19
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    Default Re: Have I picked the right boat?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jay Greer View Post
    You might just want to do some further research on cruising in small craft by reading a good book entitled "The Complete Cruiser" by the famous yacht designer L. Francis Herreshoff. Another book that is a good read is his book "An L. Francis Herreshoff Reader".
    I read "The Complete Cruiser" and thought it was a gold mine, with the exception of a few ideas about "squareheaded" Norwegians that have not aged well. I'll have to look for the Reader. I found out recently that my local library can request books from the Sausalito public library. It seems that no maritime book is too obscure for their collection!
    Thanks for the tip - sounds like great winter reading.

  20. #20
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    Default Re: Have I picked the right boat?

    Quote Originally Posted by pez_leon View Post
    I found out recently that my local library can request books from the Sausalito public library. It seems that no maritime book is too obscure for their collection!
    Thanks for the tip - sounds like great winter reading.
    See if your library belongs to LINK+ -- then even libraries like CSU Maritime are accessible.

  21. #21
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    Default Re: Have I picked the right boat?

    The CY is the first boat I've owned with an outboard in a well, and since I do a lot of beach sailing and gunkholing in thin waters I need to be able to beach or launch the boat easily. With an outboard in a well you have to unscrew the clamps, pull the outboard up out of the well and lay it down in the bottom of the boat -- and if a 4-stroke it must be laid down in the correct orientation or you'll get oil in the cylinders and ruin it. Having to do that as well as deal with the centerboard, kickup rudder and sails to beach or launch tends to be a very hurried process when singlehanding! Even a short-shaft outboard will stick down below the keel on almost all of these boats.

    As for capsize recovery, in my experience in small open boats in most places, you tend to either swim the boat to shore or get towed to shore, where the boat is then bailed out and recovered. If you plan to sail outside the Golden Gate or across the Bay after dark, in-place recovery is vital. But in my experience and from reading reports of various experienced boaters who have capsized their boats in popular sailing waters, you either get help from nearby boaters, towboats or the CG.

    So I'd focus more on setting the boat up for safety, with waterproof VHS radio lashed to the boat, cellphones in dry bags, reboarding ladder lashed to the boat, and improving sailing and swimming skills. Go for the design that will be the most fun to sail, camp in, and build -- and one that grabs your heartstrings. Enjoy!
    "The enemies of reason have a certain blind look."
    Doctor Jacquin to Lieutenant D'Hubert, in Ridley Scott's first major film _The Duellists_.

  22. #22
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    Default Re: Have I picked the right boat?

    Also look over Ross Lillistone's 17ft Periwinkle. Its got waterline and a transom. Unstayed rig, either two sails with company and more string, or just put the single bigger or smaller sail up in the middle thwart sailing solo or when its windy. Sleeps two. It's more sail and oar than sail and motor. Meets your needs with its flexible rig. It's a good boat that deserves to be more popular. There's echoes/ reverberations of Herreshoff's Coquina in it. 5'2" and light, it'll row fine if you don't want to be using an outboard.











    In my experience, 5ft beam boats cut through waves real nice but heel alot in gusts. 6ft beam boats cope with gusts much better, like you want, but bang through waves more. In SF bay I think you get both, like the Solent. Pick your poison...

    Or maybe the Ilur at midway between 5 and 6ft get the benefit of both? That boat meets your needs too at 14ft. Sleeps 2. It's at its design waterline with 3. The Ilur lug sloop version is pretty clever. Its got two mast foots. The shroudless unstayed sloop when with company (jib just set flying no forestay - quick to rig at the cost of a little performace loss) and a second mast foot for lug only sailing solo if you want. People are building them with detachable thwarts - opens up the boat for walking around. That's a flexible arrangement with or without family, quick off the trailer too. Probably fair to say, that the Ilur has a very advanced kit and jig system to put the boat together in (relatively) short order even over other Vivier's. He's put alot of time into that one over the decades. I remember John Hartman's Ilur resisted inversion standing on the mast.

    Last edited by Edward Pearson; 01-14-2020 at 05:37 AM.

  23. #23
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    Default Re: Have I picked the right boat?

    Last edited by Edward Pearson; 01-14-2020 at 05:42 AM.

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    Default Re: Have I picked the right boat?

    You may want to look at your short list to see whether a thwart may be made removable without compromising hull structure or CB case support. With the aft thwart out of the way, the Ilur has ample room to sleep on the sole:

    A71E3EA0-C358-4AF8-9003-B0C91094254C.jpg
    I suspect the Lilou 2 could be arranged this way. Just brainstorming a bit, another thought would be to ask Vivier if he would be willing to draw an unstayed lug rig for the Stir Ven 19. A step arranged as Steve described in post #2 and a carbon mast would make rigging as simple as it gets, although I think the little Stir Ven is brilliant as it is.

  25. #25
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    Default Re: Have I picked the right boat?

    Perhaps a little late to chime in here, but I can't tell if you'd be OK with kit vs. straight build from plans. (EDIT: Clint sells both kits AND plans for his designs!)

    If a kit would be something you'd consider you might want to look at Clint Chase's Calendar Island Yawl 16 or the Calendar Island 18 (which can be a yawl or ketch rig).

    The 16 has platforms that raise into a very nice sleeping platform. I'm currently building this boat. The 18 might be a little much for your driveway if it's on a trailer though.

    A couple of links:

    http://www.chase-small-craft.com/calendar-islands-18-design-project


    http://www.chase-small-craft.com/cal...slands-yawl-16
    Last edited by Pete Bergquist; 01-14-2020 at 09:59 AM.
    I swear I'm half done.

  26. #26
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    Default Re: Have I picked the right boat?

    Quote Originally Posted by Edward Pearson View Post
    Go for the smallest simplist boat that can meet your needs.
    A quote I've heard ringing in my ears all week.
    Here's an update with some approximate cost parameters that may interest some of you.
    When I originally picked the Stir Ven 19 I was under the impression that I had free access to an underused CNC mill. I've sinced learned that access to the mill is less straightforward than I'd like and that the job of milling out a Stir Ven 19 is larger than I figured. Vivier does not offer full-size plans for the Stir Ven 19, so I can't just cut it at home (not that cutting at home would be quick or easy). It's still possible that I'll be able to mill the Stir Ven 19 parts for nearly free. Realistically, I should check on other options. So how to accomplish all this milling?

    * One could contract out. Some local sign/cabinet shops have told me that milling a single sheet could take 2 hours and cost me $200 - $300, just for cutting. On the 23-sheet Stir Ven such an expense could double the cost of the project!

    * Or, one could buy a kit. I have bid requests out to two kit providers. The nearest one is 12 hours away, meaning I'd either be driving a long way for a pickup or paying over $1k for shipping. Still a possibility.

    * A third option I explored was home milling. A friend told me about the Maslow CNC, a $500 home CNC that could (in theory) mill all 23 full sheets. This is a very neat machine:

    I dropped the home CNC idea because of reports of inaccuracy at the corners of the bed, where one of the two control chains is near vertical and thus unable to provide accurate horizontal force. Here's a review that shows the issue:
    https://www.summet.com/blog/2018/06/...router-review/


    Plus I don't really want to spend 70+ hours babysitting and troubleshooting the machine.
    (For what it's worth, the Maslow is supposedly plenty accurate near the center of the bed)


    Reflecting on the cost and time of getting out the parts, and the possibility that I might just need less boat, sent me back to at least re-evaluate some of the other boats on the short list. Thanks to all of you who suggested these.
    Lilou 2 - requires CNC cutting, and I'd like to build in lapstrake rather than stitch and glue.

    Caledonia Yawl - I went pretty far down the Caledonia Yawl rabbit hole and saw there's clearly a lot to be said for this beautiful boat- but I'm still not confident I'd want to be in one in a capsize. I want a boat that a couple of teenage boys can capsize until they learn not to. Given that I sometimes sail where no one else is boating (high, cold mountain lakes) I don't want my backup plan to involve a tow.

    Ebihen 16 - This is a whole lot of boat! Definitely a contender. I love the water ballast. It does seem more like a small ship then a dayboat. I know that it's just an enlarged Ilur hull, but man- it looks enormous.


    Periwinkle - A strong contender. I still haven't ruled it out. Pros include a flexible rig, the possibilty of rowing and not motoring, and lots of storage space. Concerns are partly about building from non-full scale plans (I'm still new to this), and mostly about interior furnishings. I don't mind a small bunk, but I'm not sure I'd be comfortable in this small of a space for sleeping aboard:


    And I'm not sure if three people could gracefully share this cockpit for a long sail. I think if I were looking for a boat for a maximum of two people who were not interested in sleeping aboard I'd be sold. If I were just building a boat for one, the Periwinkle or Phoenix III would be near the top of the list.

    Siel 18 - At the moment, top contender. Can be built from full-size plans. Reportedly straightforward construction. Clearly well thought out. Massive (thwart level) sleeping area provied by raising floorboards. Proven use by large groups (6 people?!) . The prospect of a boat that is pleasant to row is exciting.




    Concerns - Supposedly a wet ride. I can't find any reports of behavior in swell/chop. Very little enclosed storage space (I guess I'd use drybags instead).

    So while I'm waiting for a better estimate of my access to the tools needed to make the Stir Ven 19 (and their cost) I am flirting with the idea of building a Seil 18 instead. It feels strange to be even mentioning these boats in the same breath. The seemingly small 1 LOA that separates the Seil 18 from the Stir Ven 19 hides a whole world of difference: the Seil uses half the plywood, carries half the sail area, and presents more as an oversized surfboard than a pocket yacht. But it may also meet my needs.
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    Last edited by pez_leon; 01-23-2020 at 07:31 PM.

  27. #27
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Location
    SF Bay Area- Richmond
    Posts
    16,212

    Default Re: Have I picked the right boat?

    There's a simple solution to all this -- buy a cheap used fiberglass sailing dinghy and let the boys learn in that. These are DESIGNED to be capsized and recovered while on the water, and are relatively bombproof for all those learning mistakes. It can also be towed behind the bigger boat for some of your boat-camping trips in the Central Valley and mountain lakes.

    Then build the boat that meets all your other requirements. You'll find that if you or the boys dumps a larger boat full of camping gear that it will be an expensive lesson. If you read the various accounts of experienced sailors that have this happen, they often lose some if not all of their nav and personal electronics, cameras, and various other bags and equipment that wasn't correctly lashed to the boat. Imagine it to be similar to the difference between taking an open Jeep out 4-wheeling and taking a 30' RV offroad in bad conditions -- you have LOT more to lose with the bigger rig.
    "The enemies of reason have a certain blind look."
    Doctor Jacquin to Lieutenant D'Hubert, in Ridley Scott's first major film _The Duellists_.

  28. #28
    Join Date
    Jun 2003
    Location
    Central Coast, Ca
    Posts
    26,165

    Default Re: Have I picked the right boat?

    If you are seriously planning on sailing regularly on SF Bay, I would think seriously about decks, and watertight bulkheads. That water can be very unforgiving on a summer afternoon...

  29. #29
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Northern Europe
    Posts
    11,647

    Default Re: Have I picked the right boat?

    If you are considering Seil, you might want to consider the 17ft Norwegian pram from DK.
    https://boatplans.dk/boat_plans.asp?id=12



    Plans can be printed out at home on A4 paper, and every part is dimensioned, you really do not need full size patterns. I have the plans, and also built his DK18, and its all pretty straight forward, i do not see a fisrt timer having any problems, and there is always someone here ready to help out.

    Im a big fan of Ebihen with the lug rig.



    The masts are not that big, and the rig is simple. He has really sorted out the outboard wells on his designs.

    Another boat in the same vein that might be of interest is Paul Fishers Baltic Lugger.


    http://www.selway-fisher.com/OtherDB.htm

    Its designed for strip plank, but Paul could line it off for clinker plank, and he might need to throw in a few extra bulkheads. It does have a good sleeping arrangement, and its a big little boat. This might be the original build, now up for sale, some nice photos. https://www.ebay-kleinanzeigen.de/s-...593148-211-558
    Ian. AKA RusBot

    Quote Originally Posted by oznabrag View Post
    A sure sign of the Apocalypse.

    I agree with Skaraborgcraft.

  30. #30
    Join Date
    Aug 2019
    Location
    Tallinn, Estonia
    Posts
    4

    Default Re: Have I picked the right boat?

    I have reading this thread with great interest as it seems like we have similar criteria and questions. My front runner so far is also Stir Ven 19 open as it is such a beautiful boat.

    There are a lot of Vivier boats mentioned in this thread and I have to say that it gives an extra reassurance buying one of his plans with his NA background. I am also looking at some of his other designs like Ilur, Ebihen and Lilou 2, but I keep going back Stir Ven 19. Unfortunately this is a relative new design so I guess that it has not been built many of them yet.
    My main worry is that the rigging and launching would take too long and that this will result in the boat not being used as much as for example a smaller simpler boat like Ilur.

  31. #31
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Northern Europe
    Posts
    11,647

    Default Re: Have I picked the right boat?

    How long does it take to set up 2 shrouds and a forestay? The loading/unloading from a trailer wont make any difference in time. No reason if lacings are used the spars and sail can not be kept on the mast. Even when i used a boat based in a marina, there was still the sail covers to remove, the engine to put in place, 5 docklines to take in and stow. I understand that "instant boating" is preferable, but rarely does it work that way, and if 30 minutes of "hassle" is enough to put people off, it begs the question of taking on a commitment to build such a boat. I would always work on losing an hours time on the water if i wanted to go sailing. Using a canoe instead only costs me 15 minutes. How do you value your free time?
    Ian. AKA RusBot

    Quote Originally Posted by oznabrag View Post
    A sure sign of the Apocalypse.

    I agree with Skaraborgcraft.

  32. #32
    Join Date
    Jan 2000
    Location
    Cushing, Maine
    Posts
    3,797

    Default Re: Have I picked the right boat?

    Quote Originally Posted by Chris Narum View Post
    I have reading this thread with great interest as it seems like we have similar criteria and questions. My front runner so far is also Stir Ven 19 open as it is such a beautiful boat.

    There are a lot of Vivier boats mentioned in this thread and I have to say that it gives an extra reassurance buying one of his plans with his NA background. I am also looking at some of his other designs like Ilur, Ebihen and Lilou 2, but I keep going back Stir Ven 19. Unfortunately this is a relative new design so I guess that it has not been built many of them yet.
    My main worry is that the rigging and launching would take too long and that this will result in the boat not being used as much as for example a smaller simpler boat like Ilur.
    There are some tricks to packing and unpacking a trailer small boat quickly. Halyards wrapped on the spar in opposite directions before the shrouds get wrapped, then the whole thing going into a long bag. Gaff and boom stay laced, then use toggles on the lacing for the luff on the mast. Also everything goes into another long bag.
    Ben Fuller
    Ran Tan, Liten Kuhling, Tipsy, Tippy, Josef W., Merry Mouth, Imp, Macavity, Look Far, Flash and a quiver of other 'yaks.
    "Bound fast is boatless man."

  33. #33
    Join Date
    Aug 2019
    Location
    Tallinn, Estonia
    Posts
    4

    Default Re: Have I picked the right boat?

    Quote Originally Posted by skaraborgcraft View Post
    How long does it take to set up 2 shrouds and a forestay? The loading/unloading from a trailer wont make any difference in time. No reason if lacings are used the spars and sail can not be kept on the mast. Even when i used a boat based in a marina, there was still the sail covers to remove, the engine to put in place, 5 docklines to take in and stow. I understand that "instant boating" is preferable, but rarely does it work that way, and if 30 minutes of "hassle" is enough to put people off, it begs the question of taking on a commitment to build such a boat. I would always work on losing an hours time on the water if i wanted to go sailing. Using a canoe instead only costs me 15 minutes. How do you value your free time?

    I completely agree with you, if you want to go sailing, that is the time it takes to get going. I think 30 min sounds more than ok. Like you say there is work to be done even if you have a boat based in a marina, this what I am used to from previous boats. I was more going off what I have read in a lot of other threads on this forum were people always preach smaller is better, when it comes to choosing a boat, since it is more likely to be used the smaller and easier the rigging is. Everyone is different of course, but it is always good to hear out people . that has experience with trailer sailing.

    I am sure you can find ways to optimize it after some trial and error in the beginning.

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