Seaworthyness of Bill Garden Pinky Schooner for offshore passages?

[rkarakai21]

Hello there. New to the forum. I am sailor and wooden boat nut from Vancouver Island looking for a heavy full keeled cruiser, either in a Gaff rigged ketch arrangement or sloop. Anyway, I'm looking to cruise eventually to the South Pacific with trial runs around Vancouver Island and a trial passage to Hawaii. I'm very enamoured with the Norwegian double enders eg. Colin Archer Pilot vessel style. A possibility has come my way in the form of a Bill Garden Pinky schooner, 28' on deck, 40' overall, 16000 lb displacement. I know these were traditionally used coastally as work boats back east but has anyone any knowledge of one making an ocean passage? By the Length, beam, Draught and displacement she would seem to be a solid little vessel but if anyone has input as to their seaworthiness it would be greatly appreciated.

Cheers

Ryan

[wizbang 13]

A fellow built one of those here ,Gig Harbor,Wa.,some years ago. It may be the same boat?
The pacific is very big and this boat is small and slow. This can be overcome with super human simplicity and endurance.
But yes, she is a good design for deep blue water, laying a hull in a gale ,given sea room.
She will balance /steer well.
Modern boats get away with being what they have become through weather technology. They can out run bad weather . A small gaffer cannot.
I'm also a fan of heavy dbl enders at sea .But I take a lotta licks.
bruce

[rkarakai21]

This one was built at Port Ludlow, WA. According to the survey, in 1951, by a Richard Bennet and he was assisted by William Garden.

Thanks for your input, it is highly appreciated. I have made all of my passages in square rigged ships or larger schooners, and having seen a few particularly ugly weather events that were not forecasted and some that were. I try to imagine myself in the same position sailing on my own small boat and whether she would be sturdy enough to handle the onslaught. I shy away from lighter designs naturally, and I favour a two masted rig, I especially like Ketches. I am a little concerned with a schooner rig that the fairly long main boom would risk being consistently dipped in the swells on a broad reach or a run, thus jarring the rig. I suppose on those points of sail I could favour the foresail, and I would certainly have a yard on the foremast with a well rigged and adequately proportioned square sail to keep her up to speed without the main.

[wizbang 13]

My boat , a 12 ton dbl ended gaff ketch, when faced with reeeeeally bad weather, lays ahull ,bare poles,no drogue,,70 degrees off the wind and moves slowly forward.
She does not turn downwind or go tacking around by herself. At about 70 knots o breeze, a reefed mizzen sheeted halfway in, goes back up. (and that is easier said than done)
I feel this is more due to the hull shape than the rig, the lack of long overhangs, particularly a transom overhang.
I like to say,"her best point of sail is no sail".
Other boats, not all but many, NEED to run in a gale, someone NEEDS to steer. Thus , crew is NEEDED. I could run off, but I be chill at sea, not keen on racing around in crap weather. It is usually just my wife and I , or me alone.
So, indeed, any apparent wind over 30 ish knots, you may like to drop and secure the whole main,on a 28 footer.
...and yes, I have pounded a lotta salt water with her.
bruce

[wizbang 13]

Now, we have a 70 year old boat here, so there may be a few other issues in regard to seaworthiness.

[rkarakai21]

Thanks for the insight Bruce. How long is your boat?

[rkarakai21]

Yes, Im going to look at the boat today, will be poking and tapping around every nook and cranny, the owner claims that her bones are good, w'ell see.

[Peerie Maa]

Yes, Im going to look at the boat today, will be poking and tapping around every nook and cranny, the owner claims that her bones are good, w'ell see.

At that age pay particular attention to her fastenings and what materials were used. See if she has been refastened, whether keel bolts have been pulled for inspection and so on.

[rkarakai21]

Will do. Her fastenings are bronze, I will be looking at that closely. Thanks for the helpful advice guys!

[wizbang 13]

Thanks for the insight Bruce. How long is your boat?

34' Venus Ketch.

[rkarakai21]

Wow, she is a real beauty!

[gilberj]

As Bruce has said that sort of hull is normally pretty sea-kindly and therefore relatively easily handled in heavy weather. The critical factors for seaworthy are not so much related to shape.
1. The boat must be sufficiently water-tight...hatches, doors, ports, vents, etc. must be reasonably watertight. I'd be cautious of, especially a heavier sort of boat with large windows, like a pilot house.
2. The boat must have adequate stability.....After Fastnet '79 we came to realize that a lot of 'cruising sailboats' had a marginal range of stability. There are several ways to think of this but I'd say the boat needs a significant righting lever in a mast in the water knockdown. Beyond that you are really into a survival situation.
3. The boat needs to be sound of structure...This relates to Nicks comment about fastenings, not just for the hull planking. A friend of mine decided to redo the deck of an English style cutter and found almost no fastening left holding the deck to the deck frames. The boat had just completed a circumnavigation.
4. The boat needs to be fitted out properly with systems and gear that can stand up to heavy service.....

Like Bruce I prefer going simple and relatively low tech.
Good luck

[rkarakai21]

Your guys experience is really valued here. I will be keeping all this in mind today. She is flush decked, no pilot house or windows, one concern I have is a forward hatch with almost no coaming, low to the deck. I would have to alter the design of the hatch and or add an arrangement for battening it down to waterproof. Here have a look. The Hatch seems to be offset too which if I'm not mistaken was one of the factors contributing to the downloading and sinking of the Pride of Baltimore. That it had been on the lee side.
8189480532_6c862e9cc3_o.jpg

[rkarakai21]

Keep in mind this photo is some years old now but the layout remains the same.

[Ian McColgin]

The off-set fore hatch is no more dangerous than a centered hatch on such a boat. It needs to be sealed (rubber gasket) and dogged (opposing compression latches).

At one point on old Goblin I'd grown lazy about dogging the fore hatch, a bit of a crawl. We hit a large wake. The first plunge floated the fore hatch and sent it chasing down the wash deck while a few hundred gallons came in. Second wave more of the same. That heavens we took no more waves and had a 2" Edson that really could take out 30 gmp.

I know of two vessels, one in open ocean and one in Nantucket Sound, that were sunk in just this way, both with loss of life.

[Peerie Maa]

Your guys experience is really valued here. I will be keeping all this in mind today. She is flush decked, no pilot house or windows, one concern I have is a forward hatch with almost no coaming, low to the deck. I would have to alter the design of the hatch and or add an arrangement for battening it down to waterproof. Here have a look. The Hatch seems to be offset too which if I'm not mistaken was one of the factors contributing to the downloading and sinking of the Pride of Baltimore. That it had been on the lee side.
8189480532_6c862e9cc3_o.jpg

As you rightly recognise the problems with that hatch, consider replacing it with an 18" dia metal escape scuttle.

[wizbang 13]

I put a nylon rope "spanish windlass" on my fwd hatch in blue water.
Eye bolt in the stem knee. I caulk it with tee shirt strips.
I would put a sawzall on that butterfly hatch in the first week. That is where ya sleep.

[rkarakai21]

Man the Spanish windlass really does it all. I’ve pulled gaff jaws off a large main gaff that were really stuck on with a big Spanish windlass, levered by a boat hook. Here is the website run by the owner with the history of the boat, current photos etc..
https://www.derekja.com/currentphotos

[Bobcat]

When I was fishing, we covered the big hatch into the forward hold with heavy canvas folded down around the coaming and then lines the canvas. It kept the water out even in bad weather

[J.Madison]

That looks like a seaworthy boat, assuming fasteners are in good shape. I would build a new forward hatch and a new hatch to replace the butterfly. The cover tells me it leaks, and they are not particularly strong.

I would build both in a double coaming design, with a good 6" of height for the forward one and maybe more for the butterfly.

I might get rid of the scuttle too, unless it is strongly built. A regular companionway with dodger would be stronger (assuming you lower the dodger for the worst of it.)

Flush decked boats are strong and bouyant, and that small cockpit looks good.

[skaraborgcraft]

I agree pretty much with the above. Im not a fan of skylights on small vessels that can be swept with solid water, i would most likely replace that with a double coaming hatch, and the one forward. Nice looking boat. If the fastenings and timbers pass survey, definately a boat i would be happy to head off in. Need a removable smoke stack too and a way to plug it.

[Peerie Maa]

That looks like a seaworthy boat, assuming fasteners are in good shape. I would build a new forward hatch and a new hatch to replace the butterfly. The cover tells me it leaks, and they are not particularly strong.

I would build both in a double coaming design, with a good 6" of height for the forward one and maybe more for the butterfly.

I might get rid of the scuttle too, unless it is strongly built. A regular companionway with dodger would be stronger (assuming you lower the dodger for the worst of it.)

Flush decked boats are strong and bouyant, and that small cockpit looks good.

Not necessarily. Covers like that can be nothing more than insurance. Good, just in case, seamanship.

[rkarakai21]

All bets are off gentlemen. She is in a pretty awful state, so I won’t be touching this one with a ten foot pole. Atleast 6 broken ribs, quite bad electrolysis in the bilge spaces, looked like great lumps of ice under the sole boards, machinery not run in over a year. A couple spots where I thought a frame or two seemed a bit soft, and the deck which absolutely needs to be re-caulked and some portions replaced, that wouldn’t be so concerning if it weren’t for the rest. Also quite small though I thought not too badly arranged below. It would take very deep pockets indeed to save this one. As I don’t have those and am looking for a boat I could move aboard fairly quickly I am back to scanning the inter webs.

all of your quick responses were very much appreciated.

I would even be quite happy to find a solid hull in need of a rig replacement, the key is that it is solid, livable or close to. I have a fair bit of experience working on traditional rigs and have a very specific vision of what I want to do for the rig. Even if the vessel needed new masts and rig in their entirety that would not dissuade me if I could get a reasonable deal on a solid boat. I will be keeping my eyes open. Ketch is my preferred setup, and any Colin archer derivative double ender would be the sort of hull I’m looking for. Length on deck 30-40’.

cheers

Ryan

[wizbang 13]

Well , Chatting about boats is what we do, so ,all good.
Come back !
b

[Breakaway]

Covers like that can be nothing more than insurance. Good, just in case, seamanship.

Not to mention a way to keep the bird guano off your glass, and perhaps to provide privacy at low tide.

Kevin

[Andrew2]

I friend built a gaff ketch version of Jay Benford's Sunrise pinky schooner. 34ft on deck and carried the spars for two squaresails on the main mast. It was very seaworthy and sailed itself without benefit of self steering. His maiden voyage was solo, from UK to S. Portugal, non stop. He no longer has her, thanks to a large merchant vessel, but certainly a very good boat for blue water.

I have to add, that it of a material other than wood, involving, ummm, weldmesh and cement. But it was fair enough to be taken as that other material not mentioned on here
A2

[Jay Greer]

Having sailed a lot of schooner's over the years, I must qualify that thirty five feet is, close to the minimum length on deck that I would choose for that rig! Any smaller, and one is dealing with the extra windage that the schooner rig affords when compared to that of a ketch!

The ketch rig is a much better choice as it can be kept in balance under all forces of wind. If speed is a question, then the sloop is a rig to be thought of. But, many of us feel that one really needs a ketch for a safe and comfortable cruising design. And if one wants to tinker, all manner of high efficiency sails can be rigged, on a ketch, just as L. F. Herreshoff's Ketch Big Ticonderoaga has done for so many years!
Jay

[sailorstu]

I almost hate to bump this thread up, however I am just looking at an ad for another Bill Garden Pinky Schooner.
Being close to where the OP is located I thought it may even be the same boat until I read further down.
However it looks like this one is several decades newer, being made in 1984.

https://sunshine.craigslist.org/boa/...573226391.html

If you don't mind me asking for all your advice, is that boat I should take a serious look at.
Or something I should run from?

I am pretty good at fixing things, and do enjoy the work.
However I would rather be sailing than spending the summer in the boat yard.

[wizbang 13]

This boat “Sunshine” looks to me to be a free boat, not six grand.
Six grand is small money in the yachting world, but I can see 2000 hours of work to get her tuned up .
Notice there is not a single photo of her construction , just the usual skylight and amateur straight decks and rusty engine . Bruce

[sailorstu]

Thank you Bruce,
Pretty much what I figured.
The sad thing is 2 years ago he could have sold it for double the price over here.

[johngsandusky]

It certainly wants a lot of paint. You won't know about the structure unless you look inside.

[ahp]

A working Pinky was one of the survivors of the Portland Gale.