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Thread: Campion Apple 16 Build

  1. #176
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    Quote Originally Posted by jamieduff1981 View Post
    The boat looks great out on the water. How much ballast are you carrying in those photographs? Just trying to get an idea of freeboard with passengers aboard...

    No ballast, though four adults and a 40lb motor, so figure 650-700lbs.

    Here’s a short clip that maybe shows the freeboard better, though there as so little wind it wasn’t like we were heeling over!



    https://youtube.com/watch?v=k8SmsCz8j7U
    Last edited by dbp1; 08-29-2022 at 06:43 AM.
    Daniel

    Building a Campion Apple 16.

  2. #177
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    Default Re: Campion Apple 16 Build

    Thanks Daniel, that's a useful reference point. The boat looks very composed and stable there. Most of our Lochs are similarly calm water and because of high mountains either side the winds range from fairly calm and shelter to funnelling straight down the middle.

    I was visiting a friend who's new house overlooks Loch Ness actually, and was absolutely itching to get out on the water. It's all motivation to keep going, as is this thread.

  3. #178
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    Default Re: Campion Apple 16 Build

    Well, I finally bit the bullet and did what I've been thinking about for a little while ago, and installed a water ballast tank. Not quite done, but close enough that it's probably worth writing down.

    From people following other builds (Like Jamie's, linked in his signature above), the Apple comes with options for a water ballast tank. When I was originally building, I both didn't want the added complexity initially, and also, liked the _look_ of floorboards better. But practicality wins, and building is fun, so!

    As people have said, water ballast has to be more-or-less designed in. In the case of the Apple, it works primarily because the hull becomes deeper below the water line, and steeper, as you get around the centercase (the place where the ballast makes sense). That means the sole would never be flat anyway, so either you add raised floorboards (as I had) and then have (essentially useless) bilge space (too small to store much, but still, a decent amount of space), or you seal that space up and use it for water ballast. Certainly easier to do before you add the rest of the boat, but not terribly difficult to retrofit:

    After removing the floorboards, I made a template for the top of the tank (it's in two pieces). It's going to stretch from the front of the centercase (where there is a semi-bulkhead) to one floor behind the centercase. The only difference from the plans is that I'm going all the way to the outboard edge, rather than ending around chine 1. The reason is that I don't have seats up front, so want a flat floor. I checked with the designer, and he said it would be fine, though would make it all the more important that the tank was either full or empty (as that is more horizontal distance for sloshing).

    The designer estimates that the tanks should add around 350lbs of water when full. If I have a lot of live weight, I don't have to use it, but when single-handing, being able to add 2 human beings worth of weight, low down near the center, sounds pretty good.



    The distance between the floors is pretty short, so I think it should be okay without extra reinforcing stringers underneath. I'm going to add lightweight glass on top just to be sure though (and I did add a stringer down the middle after of the centercase, as otherwise that is a pretty large open area).

    I coated the undersides in a couple coats of epoxy, and cut holes for & glued in reinforcing rings for the armstrong hatches (6" ones) to access the andersen bailers for loading & draining the tanks.



    Which was the most complicated, expensive, and hopefully, effective, part of the whole system. Apparently, this is something that has been used for a long time (the designer said he first saw it demonstrated in the 80s). One bailer is facing backwards, with the flap removed: it acts as a scoop for water, and hopefully can fill the tank quickly. The other is a normal one, that hopefully can empty the tank (as long as the boat is moving; if it isn't, the other bailer will allow the tank to drain, at least to the waterline --- and I have a manual bilge pump if needed). Installing these was a royal pain. I lifted the boat up into the air with a pair of little 1000lb chain hoists (purchased since the last time lifting the boat of the trailer -- worked way better). Then after cutting holes for the bailers from the inside, I lay underneath the boat to route out the inset for the edge of the bailers. Even with a little trim router, holding it above my face while lying on my back was not the most fun. A good reason to do this in the right order!



    That photo also shows holes that I cut in the floors to allow water to pass between the different "chambers" in the tank (you can't see the limber holes at each end that I plugged, to seal it up once the top goes on). Everything inside got epoxied, and the bailers were set in from the outside with epoxy thickened with WEST 404. Rather than using the hardware they gave (tiny bolts and nuts), which would have required another person, I put little stainless screws up from the outside and then added gobs of the thickened epoxy on the tips on the inside (to act as little acorn nuts).



    Oh, and to speed up both the loading & evacuation, and for symmetry, since the lowest point of the tank in beside the centercase, I did this twice, one on either side (view from below):



    Then once the tops went in (which was delicate and required careful dry fitting, as I needed to run big beads of thickened epoxy on the floor tops before sliding the tank tops in), I just ran a fillet around the entire outside edge, running through all of the silica I had on hand (but thankfully having just barely enough to finish). It's cured for a few days, and is looking pretty good. I still need to glass & paint the tops of the tanks, but I'm pretty happy with how its turned out.

    I think, at least for now, I'm going to leave the rear floor exposed (see it in the below photo) until it bothers me. I think I could cut it down lower (I made it so tall to support the floorboards), but I may find I want to be able to have a temporary platform, etc.



    [edit]One final result -- which was of course expected, and another reason for doing this. My floorboards weighed over 100lbs on their own (I think ~110). I knew they were going to be heavy, but underestimated quite how heavy. As a result, the boat is now really noticeably lighter. I didn't weigh it again (couldn't find the second scale when setting up the hoists), but less than a sheet of plywood went in (at 18lbs per sheet) -- maybe 2/3rds?, plus the weight of the epoxy (could be a couple pounds?). So likely the dry weight if the boat is now close to a hundred pounds less than it used to be!
    [/edit]
    Last edited by dbp1; 09-13-2022 at 02:28 PM.
    Daniel

    Building a Campion Apple 16.

  4. #179
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    Default Re: Campion Apple 16 Build

    It isn't obvious to me where the air that is displaced from the tanks goes to while filling is underway.

  5. #180
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    Default Re: Campion Apple 16 Build

    Quote Originally Posted by John Meachen View Post
    It isn't obvious to me where the air that is displaced from the tanks goes to while filling is underway.
    hmm. That is a problem, huh.

    since it is just air, probably _small_ limber holes along the top edge of each floor to tank top joint would be enough (not sure how many, but a few?). Which will require a bit of surgery (glad this was pointed out before I finished the top…)

    I could also open up down to the existing baffle holes I fit (so they go right up to the tank top). Hitting those may be harder though, not sure.

    or other ideas?
    Daniel

    Building a Campion Apple 16.

  6. #181
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    Default Re: Campion Apple 16 Build

    It is a slightly unusual challenge for a small boat.I have seen how bigger water ballasted boats do it and it involves a good sized aft facing vent on deck.Obviously,this also has to function in reverse as the tank is emptied.I think I would be keeping a close eye on the weather as the sailing day draws to a close because a fading wind might all too easily make it hard to jettison the water and hauling the laden boat clear of the water would be quite a physical feat.

  7. #182
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    Default Re: Campion Apple 16 Build

    Quote Originally Posted by dbp1 View Post

    probably _small_ limber holes along the top edge of each floor to tank top joint would be enough
    That's all I've done. It may need you to rock the boat to bleed bubbles towards the holes as they're approaching full. Draining will present no problem in that respect.

  8. #183
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    Default Re: Campion Apple 16 Build

    Alright, started fixing. I used a stud detector to pretty accurately find the floors from above (the only inaccuracy coming from the squeeze out from the epoxy in the joint). I then drilled a 1.5" hole with a forstner bit, just down through the plywood, and then drilled a 1" hole (again, forstner) down into the floor, going down maybe three quarters of an inch below the ply. I'll seal everything newly exposed, cut 1.5" ply discs, seal them, and then glue them in -- the edges of floor (by cutting oversize first) should make it easy to fit them in without the discs being able to fall through, as if they did... I'd have a bit of a problem. Initially I thought about suspending them with tape while the epoxy cured, but thought this would be much more reliable.



    I did three or four across between each tank, which hopefully should allow enough space for the air to move out as the water comes in from below.

    One annoying thing -- while I did run the vacuum hose into the first chamber over (from the access point), I didn't get it to the second one, so there are certainly wood shavings in there now. It shouldn't really matter -- if they migrate get over to where the bailers are, I can clear them out.
    Daniel

    Building a Campion Apple 16.

  9. #184
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    Default Re: Campion Apple 16 Build

    Quite the project, Daniel! Seems like one limber hole between each chamber would have been enough. ?? I think you'll like the water ballast when you're done. I had a Macgregor 26 (oops! sorry - she was fiberglass) with water ballast. Of course, you filled the tank once launched. Before retrieving I would blow the water out of the tank (150 gallons = 1200 lbs ballast) with a battery operated inflater attached to the vent hole.

  10. #185
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    Default Re: Campion Apple 16 Build

    Quote Originally Posted by dalekidd View Post
    Quite the project, Daniel! Seems like one limber hole between each chamber would have been enough. ?? I think you'll like the water ballast when you're done. I had a Macgregor 26 (oops! sorry - she was fiberglass) with water ballast. Of course, you filled the tank once launched. Before retrieving I would blow the water out of the tank (150 gallons = 1200 lbs ballast) with a battery operated inflater attached to the vent hole.
    Probably — but if the boat isn’t totally level, then either the inboard or outboard one may be underwater, and in case something gets stuck in one, I’d rather just err on having a few extra. They don’t compromise the strength of anything meaningful, and the labor involved is pretty similar (once I get to cutting and finishing discs, making a few extra…)
    Daniel

    Building a Campion Apple 16.

  11. #186
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    Default Re: Campion Apple 16 Build

    Well, it's been a little while, and I haven't quite finished with the tank, but I'm close.

    I first cut out a bunch of circles. 24 I needed, though I thought I needed 27 when cutting, so ended up with a few extras! Then coated one side in epoxy:



    Next, thickened epoxy around the edges of the circles and pushing them into the holes that I cut to make air holes between the tanks (I also coated the exposed wood inside with epoxy).



    Once that cured, I sanded it all down, and layed down some fiberglass -- just to stiffen the wood a little (the underside would be better, I think, but this should do _something_, and anyway, the wood isn't flexing between floors). I put that down with peel ply, which unfortunately I didn't have quite enough of, but some fairing was needed anyway.





    At this point, I've sanded down the fairing, and it looks pretty good. I'm waiting for some more paint (and a good time when I'll be able to put a series of coats within the recoat windows), after which it should be done! I'm hoping to at least test the tanks out before the end of the season here. Unfortunately, it'll probably be with the motor only, as the spars/sails are packed relatively inaccessibly in the garage along with a bunch of stuff from the basement (causing the boat to be temporarily evicted to the driveway), as we're doing work in the basement. Obviously, this boat wouldn't need water ballast when motoring, but should at least be able to test loading/unloading the ballast, that the tanks are sealed, etc.
    Daniel

    Building a Campion Apple 16.

  12. #187
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    Default Re: Campion Apple 16 Build

    Well, I've finished the tank, but it doesn't look like I'll be able to try it out until the spring Do to work we're doing in the basement, the boat has been evicted out of its spot in the garage (basement contents taking its spot) and is currently living on the (quite steep) driveway. I tried to get it on the hitch today, and while its certainly _possible_ (if I weren't alone, probably straightforward), it's enough of a pain that it doesn't seem worth it just to test out the tanks (the sails & spars are buried in the back of the garage).

    So all I have is a current photo of the interior of the boat.



    I have the plywood on hand, and am still planning on closing up below the side seats. Part of the delay is I'm not quite sure about hatches -- probably just a decent sized one right in the middle (which limits the length of things that could go in, but make it easier to reach the ends).

    Not sure if I'm going to do anything about the single exposed floor in the rear. Probably leave it as-is for now (I haven't tried, but it _may_ be at the right place for a rowing footrest, which would be neat), and if it gets annoying, maybe I'll cut it down a bit.
    Daniel

    Building a Campion Apple 16.

  13. #188
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    Default Re: Campion Apple 16 Build

    Tanks are "pert" near invisible and spring will be here before you know it.

  14. #189
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    Default Re: Campion Apple 16 Build

    Lookin' great, Daniel!
    "George Washington as a boy
    was ignorant of the commonest
    accomplishments of youth.
    He could not even lie."

    -- Mark Twain

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